IFB in darkness?

[Steadfast Fred]

The legalism word gets thrown around be the IFB haters way too much. Let's all make sure we know what legalism is. Legalism is where there is a belief that certain conduct must be held to be saved.

In your church, Winman, I doubt that not drinking alcohol is considered a part of salvation. If it is, that legalism, but I don't think it is.

One of the Prof's at Liberty University in Lynchburg, Va., Dr. Wilmington, once told me..

We can never separate love and truth:

• Truth without love leads to legalism.

• Love without truth leads to liberalism.

How true that is.

 

[BobinKy]

Those sorts of things didn't become a big deal at church until I was a teen long about 1980, maybe a bit before. What church? Why the Freewill Baptist church we attended at the time.

menageriekeeper...

I hope you do not mind, but I attend a Freewill Baptist Church and I thought I would throw a couple of images on the screen.

...Bob

 

[glfredrick]

I don't think we have the freedom to redefine words just for the sake of discussion. There is no sense in which independent Baptist churches which consider themselves fundamentalists can be considered a denomination unless we redefine that word.

But, you are discussing... :laugh:

Self-identification is one thing. Dicussion in the larger sense is another. I'd fight against the fact that we are all called "religious" we are not (for the most part). We are a faith-filled people who have a relationship with the Living God of the universe. But, we're called "religious people" and have a "religion" in the greater discussion because that is the category in which we fit -- so we wear it and use it "for the sake of discussion."

If it looks like a duck... :thumbsup:

 

[DHK]

But, you are discussing... :laugh:

Self-identification is one thing. Dicussion in the larger sense is another. I'd fight against the fact that we are all called "religious" we are not (for the most part). We are a faith-filled people who have a relationship with the Living God of the universe. But, we're called "religious people" and have a "religion" in the greater discussion because that is the category in which we fit -- so we wear it and use it "for the sake of discussion."

If it looks like a duck... :thumbsup:

If you list your Baptist distinctives: what makes us Baptist, you will find that the IFB churches are willing to fight for these distinctives far more than any of the other Baptists.

For example, "sola scriptura," or that the Bible is our final authority in all matters of faith and practice. In previous years, even in the SBC, there have been many questions raised about the inspiration of Scripture. The ABC is completely liberal today. Inspiration is a hot topic except among the IFB who all agree that Bible is the inspired word of God.

Soul liberty. Historically it is the IFB movement that has fought for this principle with their blood. Certainly they weren't known as IFB in ages past, but they were the ones that would identify with the IFB today. We believe that others, including the J.W. have the right to believe in their faith and express it, though we may consider it heresy. It is along the lines of religious tolerance.
However it includes another facet. Our doctrine is not smorgasbord. Each individual church has a statement of faith which all agree to, and the IFB's statement of faith tend to be much more comprehensive than other Baptists. Thus there is unity in the individual churches. There is still a degree of soul liberty for no two men agree on exactly the same things, but all in the church agree on the same statement of faith, the same constitution. That is not so among other churches when people are voted into membership.

A regenerated and immersed membership. Do your Baptist churches insist on the prospective member being Baptized by immersion, before becoming a member? Not all do.

Baptism and Lord's Supper are the only two ordinances of the local church. If these are the only two ordinances of the local church, are they practiced only when the local church gathers, or are you one of the many local churches that will serve communion at the bedside of one of your members in the hospital? How important is the Lord's Supper in your church? Is it just a five or ten minute add-on at the end of a service or is considerable time given to worship at this very important memorial of our Savior's death.

Separation of church and state.
Separation personally and ecclesiastically.
--The above are rarely practiced by churches other than IFB churches.

We contend for the faith as Jude commands us.
We are independent. Our methods may be different.
We are autonomous and therefore different.
We cannot be lumped into one group.
That which we have in common are the fundamentals of the faith, the Baptist distinctives, and an independence from all denominational affiliation. We are autonomous--completely.

 

[saturneptune]

I couldn't agree more, Roger. In my 37 years in the ministry I have been a member of 9 IFB churches. Of those 9 NONE of them have been as characterized by glfredrick and tinytim. In that same 37 years of IFB ministry I have been in hundreds of IFB churches, often representing the two IFB schools I was associated with. In those hundreds of churches I found only 3 or 4 that were legalistic, dictatorial, and proudly exclusivist.

Oh, and I think I know why the other thread was closed (anonymously, of course). We were actually making some progress toward consensus, and that just can't be allowed to happen on the BB. Too much consensus brings the hit count down and the $$ don't flow.

Did it take you 37 years to become such a class act dripping with understanding and grace?

 

[John of Japan]

But, you are discussing... :laugh:

Self-identification is one thing. Dicussion in the larger sense is another. I'd fight against the fact that we are all called "religious" we are not (for the most part). We are a faith-filled people who have a relationship with the Living God of the universe. But, we're called "religious people" and have a "religion" in the greater discussion because that is the category in which we fit -- so we wear it and use it "for the sake of discussion."

If it looks like a duck... :thumbsup:

If a duck doesn't have a head, wings, feathers or duck DNA, is it still a duck? :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Steadfast Fred]

If a duck doesn't have a head, wings, feathers or duck DNA, is it still a duck? :smilewinkgrin:

If it is a duck, wouldn't the DNA always be there?

 

[John of Japan]

If it is a duck, wouldn't the DNA always be there?

Not if the thing being called a duck is not really a duck!

To paraphrase Abe Lincoln, "How many legs would a dog have if you called it a duck?" The answer, "Four, because just calling it a duck doesn't make it one."

 

[glfredrick]

If you list your Baptist distinctives: what makes us Baptist, you will find that the IFB churches are willing to fight for these distinctives far more than any of the other Baptists.

Fight... no kidding. :tear:

Where in Scripture does it say that we are to fight for the right to be separatists?

I'd prefer for the "Baptist distinctives" be that we are "people of the Book" and that we follow that Book more closely than any other people. THAT is why we exist, not to fight for our right to be individualistic.

For example, "sola scriptura," or that the Bible is our final authority in all matters of faith and practice. In previous years, even in the SBC, there have been many questions raised about the inspiration of Scripture. The ABC is completely liberal today. Inspiration is a hot topic except among the IFB who all agree that Bible is the inspired word of God.

But, certain of the IFB (not a paintbrush!) can take the Word so far out of context to be as bad or worse than those who take liberties with it in the other, more liberal direction. This has been admitted, even by other IFB persons on this board just this week.

Soul liberty. Historically it is the IFB movement that has fought for this principle with their blood. Certainly they weren't known as IFB in ages past, but they were the ones that would identify with the IFB today. We believe that others, including the J.W. have the right to believe in their faith and express it, though we may consider it heresy. It is along the lines of religious tolerance.

Are you speaking of the priesthood of all believers? What is this "soul liberty" sounds rather liberal to me... Do you have chapter and verse (in context) for soul liberty? Seeing as how IFB are "sola scriptura" there should be a case made by good exegesis of the Text, not based in some heretical beliefs.

However it includes another facet. Our doctrine is not smorgasbord. Each individual church has a statement of faith which all agree to, and the IFB's statement of faith tend to be much more comprehensive than other Baptists. Thus there is unity in the individual churches. There is still a degree of soul liberty for no two men agree on exactly the same things, but all in the church agree on the same statement of faith, the same constitution. That is not so among other churches when people are voted into membership.

Either you are truly independent or you are not... Which is it, or does the argument change based on who is making it?

A regenerated and immersed membership. Do your Baptist churches insist on the prospective member being Baptized by immersion, before becoming a member? Not all do.

Of course... That is part and parcel of what it is that makes us Baptist -- but not because WE say it. Rather because that is what is in the Word.

Baptism and Lord's Supper are the only two ordinances of the local church. If these are the only two ordinances of the local church, are they practiced only when the local church gathers, or are you one of the many local churches that will serve communion at the bedside of one of your members in the hospital? How important is the Lord's Supper in your church? Is it just a five or ten minute add-on at the end of a service or is considerable time given to worship at this very important memorial of our Savior's death.

Our church practices the Lord's Supper in every service. It is definitely not "tacked on" to the end of the service. And, yes, we are Baptist. We do not run around with little kits as do some Protestants. But to suggest that "the church" (meaning any two or three members) cannot serve Communion to a shut in or person in the hospital would be a travesty. Excluding the ones who most need to be included in the actions of the congregation would violate multiple commands of our Lord, both OT and NT.

Separation of church and state.
Separation personally and ecclesiastically.
--The above are rarely practiced by churches other than IFB churches.

We contend for the faith as Jude commands us.
We are independent. Our methods may be different.
We are autonomous and therefore different.
We cannot be lumped into one group.
That which we have in common are the fundamentals of the faith, the Baptist distinctives, and an independence from all denominational affiliation. We are autonomous--completely.

Content is the right word... But do you love? Do you evangelize? Do you minister to the hurting, the sick, the widow, the orphan? What do you do with the outsider in your midst? What do you do with the brother or sister who is also one of Christ's own -- but who just happens to have been saved by Christ while under the banner of another denomination or Baptist sect?

Hate or love? Separation or unity? Which is it, and which is ACTUALLY expressed in Scripture?

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Not if the thing being called a duck is not really a duck!

To paraphrase Abe Lincoln, "How many legs would a dog have if you called it a duck?" The answer, "Four, because just calling it a duck doesn't make it one."

But the question was, "If it is a duck..." not "If it is called a duck..."

So, it must be a duck.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Fight... no kidding. :tear:

Where in Scripture does it say that we are to fight for the right to be separatists?

The brother of Jesus reminded us and made an "appeal to you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints."

The "faith" includes more than just the Gospel. It includes what the Word teaches . . about church doctrine, about church polity, about distinctives of the church, et al

We are entrusted to do this. If we don't, it will only take one generation until there is no difference between the separatists and others. And back to Rome we will bow

 

[DHK]

Hate or love? Separation or unity? Which is it, and which is ACTUALLY expressed in Scripture?

All of the above words are used in Scripture, and all are used as commands.

 

[Don]

But, certain of the IFB (not a paintbrush!) can take the Word so far out of context to be as bad or worse than those who take liberties with it in the other, more liberal direction. This has been admitted, even by other IFB persons on this board just this week.

And so can American Baptists, and Southern Baptists, and Landmark Baptists, and Pentecostals, and Methodists, and Catholics, and Lutherans, and.... So why are you picking on independent Baptists?

Separation of church and state.
Separation personally and ecclesiastically.

--The above are rarely practiced by churches other than IFB churches.

Which could explain why people say muslims and Christians worship the same god, although muslims deny Christ...or that Lutherans and Baptists are the same, although Lutherans insist you must be baptised to be saved...and so on.

 

[DHK]

And so can American Baptists, and Southern Baptists, and Landmark Baptists, and Pentecostals, and Methodists, and Catholics, and Lutherans, and.... So why are you picking on independent Baptists?


Which could explain why people say muslims and Christians worship the same god, although muslims deny Christ...or that Lutherans and Baptists are the same, although Lutherans insist you must be baptised to be saved...and so on.

The very first one:
The Bible is our final authority in all matters of faith and practice. Our faith and practice is different than theirs.

The second one:
The church must be composed of baptized regenerated believers. That one should make it obvious. Muslims are neither.

I was presenting some of the Baptist distinctives--those distinctives which set Baptists apart from other religions.

 

[John of Japan]

But the question was, "If it is a duck..." not "If it is called a duck..."

So, it must be a duck.

I'm starting to get confused. I think I'll just duck answering this one.

 

[nate]

I was born and raised until the age of 12 in Pickens South Carolina. (About 30 minutes north of Greenville) The majority of my family probably 70% belong to KJVO, IFB churches. On my mothers side of the family there are 11 missionaries or Pastors within the IFB. I must say my experiences with this group have been on the Legalistic side: women do not wear pants, no cosmetics or even ear piercing for women, no shorts for guys, no TV.

That said I am not attacking them at all just stating some of their views that I believe might fall in the category of legalistic. I think some of my experiences may stem from the fact I'm speaking of experiences in Bob Jones back yard and the proverbial buckle of the Bible Belt as well...

 

[Jerome]

a church like Hamilton Square Baptist of San Francisco go? When we were organized in 1881, the Northern Baptist Convention didn't exist and the SBC confined itself to the south and southwest. So who do we join?

The General Baptist Convention of California

Your link refers to the minutes from 1881 of an organization I don't think is any longer extent.

It does still exist (although the point is that it existed in 1881):

http://www.growinghealthychurches.org/

An example of Hamilton Square Baptist Church's early associations:

San Francisco Call, Sunday, September 16, 1906, p. 22 "News of the Churches"

During the four years that Rev. Mr. Sawyer has been pastor 203 persons entered the church. The pastor has made an appeal to his congregation in behalf of the state mission. He says: "We need to remember that the state mission cause suffered severely in the calamity, and we are now ready and able to make our annual contribution thereto.

The next session of the San Francisco Church Federation will be held in the Hamilton Square Baptist Church on the evening of Monday, September 24. The Rev. George W. White of the Central M. E. Church will preside

 

[Alive in Christ]

Legalistic side: women do not wear pants, no cosmetics or even ear piercing for women, no shorts for guys, no TV.

((((No shorts for men))))!?!?

Goodness, I LIVE in shorts during the summer.


That is extreme legalism. Almost hard core Muslim style legalism.

 

[matt wade]

I was born and raised until the age of 12 in Pickens South Carolina. (About 30 minutes north of Greenville) The majority of my family probably 70% belong to KJVO, IFB churches. On my mothers side of the family there are 11 missionaries or Pastors within the IFB. I must say my experiences with this group have been on the Legalistic side: women do not wear pants, no cosmetics or even ear piercing for women, no shorts for guys, no TV.

That said I am not attacking them at all just stating some of their views that I believe might fall in the category of legalistic. I think some of my experiences may stem from the fact I'm speaking of experiences in Bob Jones back yard and the proverbial buckle of the Bible Belt as well...

Do they believe that these items are required for salvation?

 

[John of Japan]

I was born and raised until the age of 12 in Pickens South Carolina. (About 30 minutes north of Greenville) The majority of my family probably 70% belong to KJVO, IFB churches. On my mothers side of the family there are 11 missionaries or Pastors within the IFB. I must say my experiences with this group have been on the Legalistic side: women do not wear pants, no cosmetics or even ear piercing for women, no shorts for guys, no TV.

That said I am not attacking them at all just stating some of their views that I believe might fall in the category of legalistic. I think some of my experiences may stem from the fact I'm speaking of experiences in Bob Jones back yard and the proverbial buckle of the Bible Belt as well...

To be fair, BJU professors oppose KJVO teachings, and there is nothing in their campus rules about cosmetics or ear piercing. I'm not sure about the other things nowadays, but I doubt if they actively oppose them, though they have certain dress standards for on campus. (Women still wear pants in PE there, I believe.)