IFB in darkness?

[Alive in Christ]

DHK....

Let me get this straight:
At church you have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, so it doesn't matter how you dress.

Buzzz. Fail.

People who come to church should have the freedom to dress as they like. We have no dress code at our church, but I can count on one finger the times that anyone came dressed inappropiatly in all the years I have been there.

Who would you say is responsible for that?

At work it matters how you dress. But there you don't have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit because you are no longer in church.

Buzzz. Fail.#2

I have no idea how you could miss a point so simple, but you managed. And then you made it worse by saying something silly about the Holy Spirit. (He never leaves us, DHK. He never leaves us!)

That ain't my kind of Christianity.
I am indwelt by the Holy Spirit no matter where I am, and from the day I was born again he has been changing me from the inside out.

Buzz. Fail #3

You struck our miserably, DHK.

Of course the Holy Spirit never leaves us. Why do you keep saying that, rather than adress my point???

I have no conception as to how you could be so confused by such an easily understood post...but you did.

I'll just leave you with your misunderstandings and confusion, as I think to attempt to help you understand would be futile, unfortunetly.

God bless.

AiC

 

[Don]

Of course the Holy Spirit never leaves us. Why do you keep saying that, rather than adress my point???

I have no conception as to how you could be so confused by such an easily understood post...but you did.

I'll just leave you with your misunderstandings and confusion, as I think to attempt to help you understand would be futile, unfortunetly.

God bless.

AiC

Gotta say: YOU were the one who said

Ummmm....there is a HUGE difference between going to work and living out the christian life.

(Although the two sometimes intersect, such as when wittnessing at work.)

Seems to me, with the words "the two sometimes interact," you made a distinction that doesn't exist.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

The views on various IFB churches are one thing. The problem is the statement that the IFB are in darkness. We have yet to see that addressed.

 

[John of Japan]

How am I giving false witness? I lived it for over twenty years.

The false witness comes when you change the definition of legalism and call people legalists who are not.

You see, I don't mind if you say IFB personal separation is mistaken or too strict. We can then discuss the movement with mutual respect as brothers in Christ. But the "legalist" attack is a direct attack on the soteriology of the movement. And it is usually made with a sneer and condescention. (I can't see your face, so I don't know that you are sneering. :smilewinkgrin: ) But I know so many good independent Baptists that bely the truth of such attacks.

 

[Luke2427]

The false witness comes when you change the definition of legalism and call people legalists who are not.

You see, I don't mind if you say IFB personal separation is mistaken or too strict. We can then discuss the movement with mutual respect as brothers in Christ. But the "legalist" attack is a direct attack on the soteriology of the movement. And it is usually made with a sneer and condescention. (I can't see your face, so I don't know that you are sneering. :smilewinkgrin: ) But I know so many good independent Baptists that bely the truth of such attacks.

It is not just the legalism. It is the utter abandonment of sola scriptura in so many IFB churches.

They preach that this is a sin and that is a sin and you ought to be doing this and you ought to be doing that....

and they no more have bible for most of that ignorant mess than the man on the moon. But they don't care. And their people do not care. In many of these circles the pastor speaks ex cathedra.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

It is not just the legalism. It is the utter abandonment of sola scriptura in so many IFB churches.

They preach that this is a sin and that is a sin and you ought to be doing this and you ought to be doing that....

and they no more have bible for most of that ignorant mess than the man on the moon. But they don't care. And their people do not care. In many of these circles the pastor speaks ex cathedra.

'Many' being the operative word here. Thank you.

 

[David Lamb]

Oh, come now. A denomination? The IFB movement is nothing like a denomination by any definition whatsoever. There is no administration and no legal hierarchy.

Denomination--"A large group of religious congregations united under a common faith and name and organized under a single administrative and legal hierarchy."

(Excerpted from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition © 1996 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved.)

I agree, John. I would go further, and say that, based on the American Heritage definition of the word "denomination" you quoted, there is no such thing as a "baptist denomination". Every local baptist church can choose which (if any) national or international group of baptist churches they wish to affiliate themselves to. (Not quite sure how a church would go about "afiliating themselves" to a set of tracts, as michael-acts17:11 said. )

 

[John of Japan]

I agree, John. I would go further, and say that, based on the American Heritage definition of the word "denomination" you quoted, there is no such thing as a "baptist denomination". Every local baptist church can choose which (if any) national or international group of baptist churches they wish to affiliate themselves to. (Not quite sure how a church would go about "afiliating themselves" to a set of tracts, as michael-acts17:11 said. )

Nice to have agreement. :wavey:

If we believe in the Baptist distinctives, then each local church is autonomous. That rules out Baptist denominations entirely, in my thinking.

When I was born, Dad was planting churches for the SBC in Kansas. One day a couple of reps from the county association came to an important business meeting. Dad said, "This is a local church business meeting. If you guys stand up to participate at any time, I'll have the deacons show you out." Those guys didn't even get up for the closing hymn! :type:

 

[Alive in Christ]

Gotta say: YOU were the one who said
Seems to me, with the words "the two sometimes interact," you made a distinction that doesn't exist.

Maybe I didnt articulate my post well enough. It was late at night and I was sleepy.

This is what I was saying.....

When we go to work, its sort of like being "under the law". If they say you wear a suit and tie....you wear a suit and tie. If they say short hair...you cut your hair. Period. No if, ands or buts.

But in the the rest of our life, including when we are at church, during our off time, we are not under those constraints. But we still have the scriptures, and the Holy Spirit in us. And He is a living being, God, who influences us.

Therefore...there should be no need for some elementary school style, "lock step" dress code for Gods people when they gather.

AiC

 

[J.D.]

The views on various IFB churches are one thing. The problem is the statement that the IFB are in darkness. We have yet to see that addressed.

Agree, that statement is way too strong.

In a related matter, I heard a newscaster today refer to the Westboro bunch as "fundamentalists". The news media never misses a chance to slam a cause by associating it with bad people.

 

[glfredrick]

Perhaps they [news media, i.e., outsiders] don't see that much distinction between Westboro and Fundamentalists.

I'll toss this out, though I know that I'll get ripped for saying it, but is it possible that those stepped in the IFB tradition don't even know how radically legalistic (one could use the term Pharisaical) they really are because they have nothing with which to compare, having literally burned their bridges with almost every other Christian group or denomination under the sun?

 

[J.D.]

Perhaps they [news media, i.e., outsiders] don't see that much distinction between Westboro and Fundamentalists.

I'll toss this out, though I know that I'll get ripped for saying it, but is it possible that those stepped in the IFB tradition don't even know how radically legalistic (one could use the term Pharisaical) they really are because they have nothing with which to compare, having literally burned their bridges with almost every other Christian group or denomination under the sun?

Yes, that probably is the main reason some IFBs are so self-confirmed in their opinions. But has been pointed out in this thread already, there are plenty of IFBs that don't fall into that catagory. But that was my experience for the most part - legalistic, inbred opinions, bully preachers, and so on.

 

[DHK]

Maybe I didnt articulate my post well enough. It was late at night and I was sleepy.

This is what I was saying.....

When we go to work, its sort of like being "under the law". If they say you wear a suit and tie....you wear a suit and tie. If they say short hair...you cut your hair. Period. No if, ands or buts.

But in the the rest of our life, including when we are at church, during our off time, we are not under those constraints. But we still have the scriptures, and the Holy Spirit in us. And He is a living being, God, who influences us.

Therefore...there should be no need for some elementary school style, "lock step" dress code for Gods people when they gather.

AiC

But that is not what you said, and you did draw a distinction, even as you are now, between two types of Christianity: one for work and one for being in church. I find that hypocritical. I find that problem with teen-age girls who think that they can be immodest outside of the home, and in some work places but dress modestly in church to please their parents.

The same goes for some adults. They can dress to please their boss, employer, but come to church dressed like a slob (or close to it). They are hypocritical. Both of them are.

Does the indwelling of the Holy Spirit guide you to live a Godly and holy life in every place that you go that you might be an effective witness in all places that you enter whether at work or in church? Ought you not to be consistent in your walk with God?

 

[Alive in Christ]

Brother DHK...

But that is not what you said, and you did draw a distinction, even as you are now, between two types of Christianity: one for work and one for being in church. I find that hypocritical.

This is so frustrating.

I am at a loss to understand how you can be confused so easily. Maybe its the legalism of the IFB churches that does this to people, I dont know.

DHK...the Christian life is all encompassing. Christ takes up residence in our heart and life...living in and through us, growing us, teaching us, and actually becoming our life. We, in dependance on Him, allowing Him to express Himself though us, for the benifit of others.

I just dont know where you get this ridiculous nonsense about "one type of christianity at church" and "another type of christianity" during the rest of our life.

(Here lately I'm learning more and more about the IFB's and I am beginning to suspect that the poisionous legalism that exists in some of them might be the source, who knows.)

Irregardless, DHK, you really need to forget about that nonsense.

I find that problem with teen-age girls who think that they can be immodest outside of the home, and in some work places but dress modestly in church to please their parents.

Most of the time those ones are either lost, or very much in need of learning, and counsel.

The same goes for some adults. They can dress to please their boss, employer, but come to church dressed like a slob (or close to it). They are hypocritical. Both of them are.

As long as they are not dressing sinfully (barely dressed, showing way too much, etc), and dont smell bad, leave them alone. it is none of your business and it is none of the pastors buisiness.

They have a right to dress the way they want to dress.

Does the indwelling of the Holy Spirit guide you to live a Godly and holy life in every place that you go that you might be an effective witness in all places that you enter whether at work or in church?

Yes...of course

Ought you not to be consistent in your walk with God?

Of course. But dressing casually, or even in a way that some might consider "sloppy" in church is not inconsistant with being a born again christian, and should not be an issue in any way.

In church people have the right dress exactly how they feel comfortable dressing. Its their body and their clothes.

And to make an issue of it is legalistic and phariseeical.

I sure am glad I am not one of those. Jesus has some very serious things to say to those Pharisees, as I recall.

 

[TCassidy]

As long as they are not dressing sinfully (barely dressed, showing way too much, etc), and dont smell bad, leave them alone. it is none of your business and it is none of the pastors buisiness.

This brought back an old memory. About 25 years ago we had a first-time visitor on Sunday morning who was wearing a very short mini-skirt. One of our dear ladies came up to me and asked me if I had seen her. When I said that I had this dear lady asked me what I was going to do about it. I told her I was going to go up to her, shake her hand, and tell her how glad I was that she came to worship with us this morning.

The dear lady said, "But Pastor, don't you see how she is dressed?" I said, "Yes, but aren't you glad she came?"

The dear lady said, again, "But Pastor, don't you see how she is dressed?" I said, "Yes, but aren't you glad she came?"

The dear lady said, the third time, "But Pastor, don't you see how she is dressed?" I said, "Yes, but aren't you glad she came?"

The dear lady then got the message and said, "But I am sure glad she came!"

LOL!

 

[Alive in Christ]

This brought back an old memory. About 25 years ago we had a first-time visitor on Sunday morning who was wearing a very short mini-skirt. One of our dear ladies came up to me and asked me if I had seen her. When I said that I had this dear lady asked me what I was going to do about it. I told her I was going to go up to her, shake her hand, and tell her how glad I was that she came to worship with us this morning.

The dear lady said, "But Pastor, don't you see how she is dressed?" I said, "Yes, but aren't you glad she came?"

The dear lady said, again, "But Pastor, don't you see how she is dressed?" I said, "Yes, but aren't you glad she came?"

The dear lady said, the third time, "But Pastor, don't you see how she is dressed?" I said, "Yes, but aren't you glad she came?"

The dear lady then got the message and said, "But I am sure glad she came!"

LOL!

GREAT story TCassidy!!

And its a true story...Praise God! :thumbs:

 

[michael-acts17:11]

All of the rules & opinions on what is acceptable or appropriate "in the church" reveals a deeper misunderstanding of the essence of the church. In practice, their churches are religious institutions where God meets with His people & instructs them in every facet of life through a popish pastor. The true church is a spiritual organism which exists outside these law-centered temples.

glfredrick hit the nail on the head with "is it possible that those stepped in the IFB tradition don't even know how radically legalistic (one could use the term Pharisaical) they really are because they have nothing with which to compare, having literally burned their bridges with almost every other Christian group or denomination under the sun?" Those in my family & friends who are still in that mess are clueless as to how they appear to non-IFB believers. Reasoning with them is like trying to convince the JW's or Mormon's that they are cults. They see themselves as normal; based on their separation from Christian society. God calls us to separate from the sin of the world, not from other believers who are not as separate as we are. Their judgments from the pulpits against other churches & church groups are based primarily on the ignorance of arrogance & assumption. And God forbid if any member doesn't attend "everytime the doors are open". We all know that those who are in church the most are the most spiritual. Much like the Pharisee of Luke 18.

 

[Don]

As long as they are not dressing sinfully (barely dressed, showing way too much, etc), and dont smell bad, leave them alone. it is none of your business and it is none of the pastors buisiness.

They have a right to dress the way they want to dress.

In church people have the right dress exactly how they feel comfortable dressing. Its their body and their clothes.

And to make an issue of it is legalistic and phariseeical.

I only pulled out parts of your post; hopefully, I haven't lost the context.

I would humbly point out one thing to you: Yes, our liberty in Christ means that we have the right; but does it mean we have the responsibility?

Further, please look at your own words again: "they want"; "their body"; "they feel." Seems to me, that once we become Christ's, we are His, not our own.

-----
Michael,
I'm sorry you've had such a bad experience with IFB churches. Sure wish you could come visit some of the ones I've been a member of.

I could easily tell a parable about the old Baptist pastor and the IRS guy who both went up on a hill; and the old Baptist pastor prayed thus, saying, "I thank you, Lord, that I'm not like this money-stealing IRS guy; I wear a tie every Sunday..." etc., etc.

For the record: I've been in several different kinds of IFB church, and I'll continue to be IFB until the Lord leads me a different way. I'm one IFB guy who says the way I dress doesn't say squat about my salvation. How many times you attend church doesn't say squat about your salvation.

How you treat others, how you show Christ in you, says libraries about your salvation.

 

[Alive in Christ]

michael-acts17:11 posted.....(bolding mine)

glfredrick hit the nail on the head with "is it possible that those stepped in the IFB tradition don't even know how radically legalistic (one could use the term Pharisaical) they really are because they have nothing with which to compare, having literally burned their bridges with almost every other Christian group or denomination under the sun?" Those in my family & friends who are still in that mess are clueless as to how they appear to non-IFB believers.

Reasoning with them is like trying to convince the JW's or Mormon's that they are cults. They see themselves as normal; based on their separation from Christian society. God calls us to separate from the sin of the world, not from other believers who are not as separate as we are.

Their judgments from the pulpits against other churches & church groups are based primarily on the ignorance of arrogance & assumption. And God forbid if any member doesn't attend "everytime the doors are open". We all know that those who are in church the most are the most spiritual. Much like the Pharisee of Luke 18.

If we had stars on this site, this post would get the maximum 5 Star ranking. :thumbs:

 

[DHK]

michael-acts17:11 posted.....(bolding mine)

If we had stars on this site, this post would get the maximum 5 Star ranking. :thumbs:

In said post, who are the "those", "their..." "they", etc."

Who exactly are you referring to?

Is it your family?