It's been many years so, I'm not going to dig up the evidence. But, it was proven to many of the brethren's satisfaction.
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IFB Leaders On Expository Preaching
- Thread starter Truth Seeker
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Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Rippon is correct. His statement brings proper balance and perspective to the forefront of the mind. It's refreshing to see candor and honesty instead of bowing to the status quo.
I'm glad to know that.
If you knew the facts, you might not disagree with him in these areas.
I know of no debate he had with Walvoord, but John R. Rice differed very strongly with Chafer's book True Evangelism, as did many evangelists. In the book, Chafer denigrated vocational evangelists, and suggested that the true way to win folk to Christ was only through prayer.
The SOTL actually was not the publisher of the John R. Rice Reference Bible. The original publisher was Thomas Nelson, though the SOTL had their logo on the first edition, and then later Johnny Stancil's Anchor Bible Concepts took up the mantle and published it. I don't know why they quit. Haven't seen Johnny in decades.
Glad to learn this.
He was never in a dispute with Walvoord, but he went some rounds with Chafer over Chafer's book True Evangelism, in which he taught that prayer is sufficient for evangelism, and career evangelists were not needed.
I am sure glad that the pastor under whose ministry I sat from c. 1969 - 1972 did NOT follow that line of, shall we say, "reasoning."
I was only about 3 YO in Christ when I was a member of the (Yes, that's right!) IF Baptist Church of which he was pastor. With very few exceptions, he would preach on one book on Sunday AM, another one on Sunday PM, and another one at the Wednesday PM service.
Not only that, but he always had either his Greek NT or his Hebrew OT along side of his English Bible there on the pulpit---"just in case"!
He, along with a couple other church leaders, also conducted a Monday and/or Tuesday PM "Bible Institute" at which interested members paid a nominal fee for textbooks and course outlines for a more in-depth study of major Bible doctrines and/or Bible books.
He even went so far as to offer an introductory-level Greek course to those who felt bold enough to want to delve into that language for themselves. As an incentive, he told us that if a person enrolled in this course, he would guarantee that they would NOT FAIL! ["Yours Truly" received a very low D- .... Hey, he kept his word!!]
Did his approach "kill evangelism"? Not IMHO. We had regular door-to-door visitation (Unless I was "providently hindered," I participated in it.), a thriving bus ministry (As a bus captain, I saw the need of going out "to the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in" [Luke 14:23]---even taking a reduction in pay when my job back then required me to work on Saturdays.), a very active AWANA program, etc.
FOOTNOTE: That church had its first early meetings in a rented set of rooms in that town's local fire hall. Most of that town's prominent figures attended a liberal Lutheran church in town. [This was several years before I joined it; in fact, I wasn't even saved for almost a half dozen years afterward, and that wasn't even anywhere near where this church was located.]
Anyway, these local big-wigs as much as publicly stated that, "Well, they may be meeting in the fire hall, but they'll never amount to anything, nor will they even grow to the point that they will be able to afford their own property on which they can erect their own building!!"
In about a dozen or so years later, the church not only managed to buy property at a rather prime location, broke ground on their SECOND building, and was working on plans for additional expansion so that their ever-growing Christian Day School could more properly house its students!
About that same time, the Lutheran Church that the local "powers-that-be" were attending had to hold some emergency business meetings because funds were so low that the local electric utility company threatened to shut off that church's electricity.
Go figure.
Challenge all you want, but the truth is that Rices influence was great across denominational lines, he knew the Scriptures extremely well, was a student of the Scriptures and scholar, a prolific writer, instrumental showing untold numbers of others both Scriptural direction and teaching, highly involved in the lives changed by the presentation of the Gospel, was a man of singular devotion to the principles of God.
As such, Rice was as much a theologian as any man.
That a few of his writings may reflect what some may consider dated, does not detract from the great body of work.
Any number of people can write pamphlets, and preach, even be asked to be on some board, and be a campus pastor. Streeter has no such authority and has little influence outside of his own grouping. To quote him in a statement about Rice, carries little weight.
I appreciate your good defense of John R. Rice.
For someone to quote Lloyd Streeter against John R. Rice--that's really rich! I had a good laugh over that.
I wonder if Rippon knows that Llloyd is a Ruckmanite who would naturally oppose the theology of John R. Rice? Laugh
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Came across this link today:
http://www.wayoflife.org/index_files/the_women_who_knew_jack_hyles.html
http://www.wayoflife.org/index_files/the_women_who_knew_jack_hyles.html
Wow!!!!
That is insane! Thanks for the post.
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Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Personality worship, and they still honor his name:
http://hylesanderson.edu/
You think to show repentance and a departure from this type of 'church' they'd gladly rid that name from the school...
...and, yet, the son went down the same road. It is really a saddening story!
http://brucegerencser.net/2015/02/updated-serial-adulterer-david-hyles-restored/
From the latter article:
'Restoration in the IFB movement is like a slum lord who remodels a house. The slum lord is only concerned about the rent money so he rehabs the house just enough to make it look acceptable and then he puts the FOR RENT sign in the window. Behind the paint and underneath the stained carpet is the same cockroach infested house that existed before the slum lord rehabbed the house. So it is with restoration in the IFB church movement and in much of Evangelicalism...David Hyles has found two pastors who hold to his dead father’s philosophies and beliefs to help him restore his life. Asking IFB pastors, especially those who hold to a perverted, truncated, cheap view of grace, to help you restore your life is like asking the town drunk to help you stop drinking.'
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This type of thing is not uncommon in fundy circles, this personality worship, although the above is extreme. There are more extreme cases though.
http://hylesanderson.edu/
You think to show repentance and a departure from this type of 'church' they'd gladly rid that name from the school...
...and, yet, the son went down the same road. It is really a saddening story!
http://brucegerencser.net/2015/02/updated-serial-adulterer-david-hyles-restored/
From the latter article:
'Restoration in the IFB movement is like a slum lord who remodels a house. The slum lord is only concerned about the rent money so he rehabs the house just enough to make it look acceptable and then he puts the FOR RENT sign in the window. Behind the paint and underneath the stained carpet is the same cockroach infested house that existed before the slum lord rehabbed the house. So it is with restoration in the IFB church movement and in much of Evangelicalism...David Hyles has found two pastors who hold to his dead father’s philosophies and beliefs to help him restore his life. Asking IFB pastors, especially those who hold to a perverted, truncated, cheap view of grace, to help you restore your life is like asking the town drunk to help you stop drinking.'
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This type of thing is not uncommon in fundy circles, this personality worship, although the above is extreme. There are more extreme cases though.
IT: you need to remember the IFB movement is not monolithic. There are many factions. This is due to the historic roots of the movement. Hyles and his faction have their roots in the SBC. I term them and the BBF: the East Texas faction.
On the other hand, other factions (the GARBC, the FBFI, et al.) have their roots in the Northern\American Baptist Convention. Some were on speaking terms with Mr. Hyles before the revelations others were not.
On the other hand, other factions (the GARBC, the FBFI, et al.) have their roots in the Northern\American Baptist Convention. Some were on speaking terms with Mr. Hyles before the revelations others were not.
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
I'm fully aware of the differing associations and fellowships. They're all still fundy. (I'm also fully aware of what makes them thus).
An IFB is an IFB and this type of behavior, dictatorial, arrogance, abuse, legalism, s*x scandals, is not isolated to any one faction. It is a well known fact.
This happens in the GARBC, BBFI and other fundy circles. Being divided into factions doesn't erase the fact that there are many people who have experienced and escaped abuse from Independent Fundamental Baptist churches.
And what do you propose to solve this dilemma? Rejoin the current incarnation of the Northern Baptist Convention? Morph into a presbyterian form of government with presbyteries and synods?
In my home church's case, we were not planted by either the Northern Baptist Home Missions agency or its Southern Baptist analog. In the late 1800s (long before the birth of the Fundamentalist movement), California was considered neutral territory. However, Northern California was a hotbed of Unionist sentiment (hence the name of San Francisco's Union Square). So, the folks constituting the founding group of Zion Baptist advertised in a Northern Baptist paper for a pastor.
As to our basic doctrine, we were Fundamentalists before Fundamentalism was fun. IOW, we haven't changed doctrinally since our founding in 1881. The founding charter says
In my home church's case, we were not planted by either the Northern Baptist Home Missions agency or its Southern Baptist analog. In the late 1800s (long before the birth of the Fundamentalist movement), California was considered neutral territory. However, Northern California was a hotbed of Unionist sentiment (hence the name of San Francisco's Union Square). So, the folks constituting the founding group of Zion Baptist advertised in a Northern Baptist paper for a pastor.
As to our basic doctrine, we were Fundamentalists before Fundamentalism was fun. IOW, we haven't changed doctrinally since our founding in 1881. The founding charter says
Regular in this case is the same usage as the Regular is the GARBC. Over the years, we've been affiliated with the NBs, the NBC, the CBA, and now the FBFI.
I am not to sure you are fully aware. From what I've seen over the years, many have made this type of statement without looking at the history behind the movement.Internet Theologian said:
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Whether my knowledge is endorsed or recognized by you is of no concern to me as certainly you're no repository of truth and knowledge. That and you have no idea about my background so your statement and accusatory tone is rather absurd and uncalled for.
The facts remain that I stated, and it is shamefully true concerning fundies. Having been in fundy circles for years I know the history, and most of it isn't pretty. Especially the 'behavior' piece.
If you will note, I hedged my statement with
Again, what are your solutions? Remembering,
If you're not one of the many, fine. I may not be a repository of truth and knowledge. But, I am fairly familiar with the movement and its history. Familiar enough, that I can not let your statement pass without an educated comment of my own.
Familiar enough, not to let you paint the movement with as broad a brush as you used above.
Again, what are your solutions? Remembering,
- Independent is an adjective claimed by all Baptist churches, SBC, ABC, IFB or other.
- Fundamental comes out of some real controversies in the early and middle twentieth century.
- Baptist with all of the distinctives pertaining there unto.
What behavior piece?
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Perhaps try giving others the benefit of the doubt. It wouldn't be charitable on my account (or probably tolerable on yours since I see you're an administrator) if I said to you 'I'm not too sure that your familiar with the movement' after you claimed the contrary; Hebrews 12:14.
That can go without saying...and pretense.
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