Illegal stats

[InTheLight]

What is readily apparent is that I have more faith in America's business owners and the people of America than you do.

No, your faith advantage in Americans is not readily apparent. American business owners are employing these millions of illegal workers. Why? Because they are cheap labor. If they were to be removed, who's going to take their places?

We will find a way to make it work.

When you say "we" you are saying you are an American business owner?

Case in point...if there truly is a shortage of labor, wages will increase, not decrease. That's just the way it works.

Let's see....millions of workers disappear. With all these consumers absent there will be an abundance of goods. Lower demand relative to high supply means prices will drop. Americans are not going to take on these landscaping jobs, cleaning jobs, roofing jobs, farm labor jobs, entry levels jobs. Wages will stagnate because people are not going to leave their current jobs to pick produce and clean hotel rooms. There's no reason for employers to give out wage increases. Unless you think Holiday Inn is going to start paying people $25 an hour to vacuum carpet.

The doomsday approaach just doesn't work for me. I still believe in America and it's people.

Warm fuzzy feelings and patriotic platitudes are not going to replace millions of workers and the economic chaos that would ensue.

 

[carpro]

If they were to be removed, who's going to take their places?

There are plenty of unemployed to replace 5 times their number.

When you say "we" you are saying you are an American business owner?

Not currently. But spent my life in business.

Let's see....millions of workers disappear. With all these consumers absent there will be an abundance of goods. Lower demand relative to high supply means prices will drop. Americans are not going to take on these landscaping jobs, cleaning jobs, roofing jobs, farm labor jobs, entry levels jobs. Wages will stagnate because people are not going to leave their current jobs to pick produce and clean hotel rooms. There's no reason for employers to give out wage increases. Unless you think Holiday Inn is going to start paying people $25 an hour to vacuum carpet.

Epic fail. That will level out quickly. Then employers will increase wages in a workers market. economics 101 shortage of labor= more pay. Not your typical socialist model, but it has always worked here.

Warm fuzzy feelings and patriotic platitudes are not going to replace millions of workers and the economic chaos that would ensue

Baloney. Business and the economy will adjust. Quickly. I really do have more faith in America and Americans than you do. You prove it with every word you write.

 

[InTheLight]

There are plenty of unemployed to replace 5 times their number.

I'm pretty sure I put "people don't want these jobs, that's why businesses have to hire illegals" in my previous post. Did you read that part?

Epic fail. That will level out quickly. Then employers will increase wages in a workers market.

But this situation would not be a workers market. It is an artificially created shortage of the lowest paying jobs available.

economics 101 shortage of labor= more pay.

Sorry, but it's not a shortage of labor, it's an over abundance of crappy jobs.

Not your typical socialist model, but it has always worked here.

When you say "not your typical socialist model" are you implying I'm a socialist?

 

[Use of Time]

I'm pretty sure I put "people don't want these jobs, that's why businesses have to hire illegals" in my previous post. Did you read that part?



But this situation would not be a workers market. It is an artificially created shortage of the lowest paying jobs available.



Sorry, but it's not a shortage of labor, it's an over abundance of crappy jobs.



When you say "not your typical socialist model" are you implying I'm a socialist?

I'm fairly certain Carpro hasn't ever stepped foot in an Economics class before. Also pretty certain he doesn't know what socialism is.

 

[carpro]

I'm pretty sure I put "people don't want these jobs, that's why businesses have to hire illegals" in my previous post. Did you read that part?

That can easily be changed out of the pool of the unemployed. It's called no work, no government benefits.

But this situation would not be a workers market. It is an artificially created shortage of the lowest paying jobs available.

Semantics.

Sorry, but it's not a shortage of labor, it's an over abundance of crappy jobs.

Same as above. More semantics.

When you say "not your typical socialist model" are you implying I'm a socialist?

Nope.

Now let's see what the economists have to say:

Just to make the point in general:

“As working-age population expansion slows to a crawl, even modest job growth should steadily tighten the labor supply and force wages higher.

Pertaining to agriculture in particular:

Economists evaluating claims of labor shortages look not to what employers say, but to what they do to attract additional workers. If there are fewer workers available, economists expect wages to rise, which should increase the supply of farm workers by retaining more who would otherwise leave for nonfarm jobs and perhaps draw workers into agriculture from other jobs or areas.

Economics 101. You're welcome. Don't mention it.

Now if you're really worried about it, and you obviously are, we can bring back some of the foreign workers under a strictly controlled and legal worker permit program. But it starts by deporting them and making them apply to come into the country legally.


Is this going to take place? Not a chance. None of it. So we're just arguing for the sake of argument.

All hypothetical. Disagreement without personal insult is certainly possible. You might spread that around if you get a chance. A couple of people seem to have forgotten.

 

[carpro]

I'm fairly certain Carpro hasn't ever stepped foot in an Economics class before. Also pretty certain he doesn't know what socialism is.

Seriously?

You question my education based on a purely hypothetical argument?

Do you have anything besides insults to contribute?

Anybody can play the what if game.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Seriously?

?

Do you have anything besides insults to contribute?

His pal does the same when their lame argument goes cold.

 

[Use of Time]

His pal does the same when their lame argument goes cold.

What lame argument is it we are trying to make? The only lame arguments I saw were yours as they were easily dismantled. Your posts are rarely coherent and usually lack a hypothesis. You are one of those people that has a personal experience and then assumes it is the same across all 50 states. Read more.

 

[Use of Time]

Seriously?

You question my education based on a purely hypothetical argument?

Do you have anything besides insults to contribute?

Anybody can play the what if game.

You don't have the credibility to play the vicitim card after the stuff you have pulled with me the last few weeks. Nobody wants to dry your crocodile tears.

Coming from the guy who has continuously called me a liar and a coward and even went so far as to try to pass off someone else's words as my own when they were on the losing side of an argument. There is a word for that. Hypocrite.

 

[Salty]

Lets look at actual realatity.
During the past 30 years scores of military bases have been closed or drastically reduced under BRAC.

How have these military communities turned out.

For every 1,000 people at a military base ( a guessmation) 20% are civillians. Sure, when a base closes, the GI's are moved to another military base, but the civillans are now out of a job.

In many cases, the local community has taken over the bases and turned them into civilian enterprises.

Obviously there is an immediate increase in the unemployment rate. The pizza shop outside the gate may close, but given time, the community will rebound.

 

[carpro]

You don't have the credibility to play the vicitim card after the stuff you have pulled with me the last few weeks. Nobody wants to dry your crocodile tears.

Coming from the guy who has continuously called me a liar and a coward and even went so far as to try to pass off someone else's words as my own when they were on the losing side of an argument. There is a word for that. Hypocrite.

More insults.

Really, do you have nothing to contribute at all?

 

[carpro]

Yes, wages will have to increase and small businesses will have to shut down, which was his point that you are somehow helping him make now. Sheesh.

BTW You're cheerleading for the guy who disagrees with you.

He says wages will decrease.

Wanna try to keep up?

So far, in this thread, all I've seen out of you in insults and incoherent ramblings in support of a guy you disagree with. Are you reading his posts at all?

Sheesh.

 

[InTheLight]

Disagreement without personal insult is certainly possible. You might spread that around if you get a chance. A couple of people seem to have forgotten.

I'll play nice if you will. BTW, you started it...

What is readily apparent is that I have more faith in America's business owners and the people of America than you do.

The doomsday approaach just doesn't work for me. I still believe in America and it's people.

 

[InTheLight]

There are plenty of unemployed to replace 5 times their number.

This is the crux of your argument. Please support it. Where are these 50 million unemployed people? A highly inflated number.

You can't count the people "not participating in the labor force" because they wouldn't want the sorts of jobs that illegals perform. How many want to pick produce, re-roof houses, work at fast food restaurants, clean hotel rooms, etc.?

 

[carpro]

I'll play nice if you will. BTW, you started it...

I see. You considered that an insult. It wasn't meant to be.

 

[church mouse guy]

If you really believe that there are several bridges I would like to sell you.

Someday you must tell us why you write in large font all the time. I live in an area that was established before it grew and it grew without large numbers of minorities. I did think of one factory that had mostly Hispanics and got shut down by immigration once and a lot of warehouses use illegals but they are national companies with warehouses here. Once you get out of those areas, we are all Americans here.

 

[church mouse guy]

Lets look at actual realatity.
During the past 30 years scores of military bases have been closed or drastically reduced under BRAC.

How have these military communities turned out.

For every 1,000 people at a military base ( a guessmation) 20% are civillians. Sure, when a base closes, the GI's are moved to another military base, but the civillans are now out of a job.

In many cases, the local community has taken over the bases and turned them into civilian enterprises.

Obviously there is an immediate increase in the unemployment rate. The pizza shop outside the gate may close, but given time, the community will rebound.

Not really. We lost Fort Benjamin Harrison here in Indianapolis and the area collapsed into a slum. The locals cashed in on the government property but the businesses that closed left vacant buildings still.

 

[church mouse guy]

Merriam-Webster defines the Iron Law of Wages as:

: a statement in economics: wages naturally tend to fall to the minimum level necessary for subsistence —called also brazen law of wages

Origin of IRON LAW OF WAGES

intended as translation of German ehernes lohngesetz, literally, brazen law of wages

 

[carpro]

This is the crux of your argument. Please support it. Where are these 50 million unemployed people? A highly inflated number.

You can't count the people "not participating in the labor force" because they wouldn't want the sorts of jobs that illegals perform. How many want to pick produce, re-roof houses, work at fast food restaurants, clean hotel rooms, etc.?

It is estimated that there are approximately 7-8 million illegals working in this country. We have about 10,000,000 officially unemployed and 2=3 times more than than than are not working and apparently don't want to. You are correct. My estimate of 5x the jobs is off considerably. But we still have enough to cover the jobs.

You're assuming that the unemployed wouldn't work at those jobs. What if they had to in order to continue to receive government aid and/or unemployment compensation? You might be surprised how many would go to work rather than starve or sleep on the streets. And you're ignoring a guest worker program if it's needed. Many illegals would return legally under a guest worker program.

 

[InTheLight]

You're assuming that the unemployed wouldn't work at those jobs. What if they had to in order to continue to receive government aid and/or unemployment compensation? You might be surprised how many would go to work rather than starve or sleep on the streets. And you're ignoring a guest worker program if it's needed. Many illegals would return legally under a guest worker program.

Let's run with your scenario.

1. People HAVE TO work to save government aid. Is that going to raise wages for others? Nope.

2. A guest worker program is instituted. Would that raise wages for others? Nope.