I'm Coming-Out!

[Don]

If your own flesh and blood are hindering your walk with Christ and keeping you from serving Him to your fullest potential, then certainly God wants you to make church and Himself a priority over them.

How odd and disturbing that you would say that. Look again at what he wrote: The church they're attending has placed an emphasis on the church family above the individual family.

The only way I can reconcile that I put a man-filled church before my wife, is if she is unrepentently(sp?) sinning.

 

[dcorbett]

<<You either followed the rules or you were a sinner bound for hell. Your actual status in Christ didn't matter if you DIDN'T FOLLOW THE RULES!>>

I am so sad that this was your perception. This is not and has never been the case in ANY IFB church I have been a part of or visited. I have said this repeatedly in many forum replies...we are all sinners saved by grace, and that is what IFB churches preach and believe - you cannot earn your way to heaven, Christ did it all.

We don't have a written set of "rules". We do have church by-laws that state that if a church member violates SCRIPTURE, then certain disciplinary actions will follow which could include being asked to leave the church fellowship.

Just thought I would clarify that for those who read these threads and might think that a childhood view of IFB is the way we IFB members really are.

Debbie Mc

 

[michael-acts17:11]

<<You either followed the rules or you were a sinner bound for hell. Your actual status in Christ didn't matter if you DIDN'T FOLLOW THE RULES!>>

I am so sad that this was your perception. This is not and has never been the case in ANY IFB church I have been a part of or visited. I have said this repeatedly in many forum replies...we are all sinners saved by grace, and that is what IFB churches preach and believe - you cannot earn your way to heaven, Christ did it all.

We don't have a written set of "rules". We do have church by-laws that state that if a church member violates SCRIPTURE, then certain disciplinary actions will follow which could include being asked to leave the church fellowship.

Just thought I would clarify that for those who read these threads and might think that a childhood view of IFB is the way we IFB members really are.

Debbie Mc

It is disingenuous to refer to our views as "childhood views". I still have friends and family members within those very churches & their modus operandi has not changed. They still believe & preach from the pulpit that churches such as mine(call many by name) are liberal houses under Satan's control for the advancement of false doctrine. Our digital sign gives information on upcoming events & church news. We cancel evening services on certain days of the year for members to spend the time with their families & I have first-hand knowledge that we are openly condemned for turning our backs on God's command to assemble on every occasion.

God says the world will know us by our love for one another; which is the second commandment & fulfillment of the law. Explain it away as you will, the truth is evidently clear. The Spirit of God does not abide within these cultish religious institutions. Regardless of their written beliefs. Their spoken doctrinal statements speak much louder & clearer to the condition of their hearts.


Rom 16:16-18 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you. Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

 

[menageriekeeper]

am so sad that this was your perception. This is not and has never been the case in ANY IFB church I have been a part of or visited. I have said this repeatedly in many forum replies...we are all sinners saved by grace, and that is what IFB churches preach and believe - you cannot earn your way to heaven, Christ did it all.

Debbie, this isn't my "childhood perception"! My father repeated himself last night! (like he does every week during our usual conversation about whether or not I actually attended church Sunday morning)

However in this case he was telling me to pray for the salvation of two uncles who must not be saved because a) they refuse to discuss the matter with *him* and b) because both are apparently dying from cancers that could have been caused by the fact both smoked and drank a little beer (neither were or are alcoholics!).

Childhood perceptions my foot! He can't be convinced that they are saved for the simple reason a preacher HE approves of wasn't the one that led them to the Lord.

It's not enough that one of them "knows" the Bible inside and out, because apparently he doesn't interpret scriptures the way my father does and well, like my own husband, this uncle refuses to be part of "organized religion". (gasp! how dare he think that Christ is a sufficient high priest and he doesn't need a preacher to stand between him and God ) When he says my uncle doesn't have a "personal relationship with Christ", what he means is he can't have a personal relationship with Christ outside the bounds of a local church!

But the worst problem is that he sets himself up as the judge of another man's salvation! Who are we to judge another's salvation by man made traditions? We have a list of Fruits to judge by. My father won't even consider those as proof of salvation because my uncle didn't "follow the path" set up by my IFB father!

Childhood perceptions? I don't think so!

 

[michael-acts17:11]

(gasp! how dare he think that Christ is a sufficient high priest and he doesn't need a preacher to stand between him and God ) When he says my uncle doesn't have a "personal relationship with Christ", what he means is he can't have a personal relationship with Christ outside the bounds of a local church!

:thumbs::jesus::thumbs:

 

[Jkdbuck76]

I just want to say: I love this thread title!

I did a double take when I saw it since we all know we're
not allowed to make threads about...well....you know.

 

[MamaCW]

I just want to say: I love this thread title!

I did a double take when I saw it since we all know we're
not allowed to make threads about...well....you know.

Am I the only one that hears that ridiculous song in my head every single time I read the title of the post...I hope not..:BangHead:

 

[Allan]

Thanks for bringing that up. I don't want it to be a bashing so please, anyone that replies, keep it relative to the topic of what you experienced in the process and the changing dynamics of relationships and how you have changed as a person. Maybe also include suggestions on what to do and what not to do. Basically, I'd like to understand how others have coped with having to change the fundamental dynamics of the relationships that we value (family, friends, fellow church members, etc) when they decided to change what they have been for so long. So, it could be that some 'came-out' of Catholicism, Islam, Alcoholism, abusive domestic relationships, a cult, atheism, SBC, or whatever 'ism'. I didnt mean to put the focus on IFBKJVO, that just happened to be my experience. Thank you again for bring that out.

My advise, is be open about your new views but compassionate. You did not get where you are easily, and if you did, others might not be so blessed. Be open but receptive to others who might want you to rethink your position. This is good cause if nothing else it will establish you in your views but will offer you the opportunity to show 'them' why you see it differently now. Do not try to win them over, nor win the argument. Listen, speak, and let it be. If they wish to discuss it more, OR if they are receptive to speak with you more on the the issue.. have at it.

Don't just tell someone what you believe, but explain it to the them, and it is best to do so in pieces (ever tried swallowing a whole chicken at once?). or give an over-arching view (letting them know that is what you are doing) and then if 'they' have questions you can zero in on it. It might just be you have to start from the very beginning and work your way through it. But the point here is not proving your position necessarily, but explaining what you understand and why.

 

[revmwc]

It is disingenuous to refer to our views as "childhood views". I still have friends and family members within those very churches & their modus operandi has not changed. They still believe & preach from the pulpit that churches such as mine(call many by name) are liberal houses under Satan's control for the advancement of false doctrine. Our digital sign gives information on upcoming events & church news. We cancel evening services on certain days of the year for members to spend the time with their families & I have first-hand knowledge that we are openly condemned for turning our backs on God's command to assemble on every occasion.

God says the world will know us by our love for one another; which is the second commandment & fulfillment of the law. Explain it away as you will, the truth is evidently clear. The Spirit of God does not abide within these cultish religious institutions. Regardless of their written beliefs. Their spoken doctrinal statements speak much louder & clearer to the condition of their hearts.


Rom 16:16-18 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you. Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

The IFB church I attend here doesn't have an Evening service so I go to the SBC church on Sunday night. The church I grew up in was not IFB it was a totally independent church and so we could and did cancel services occasionally for holidays and the like. The church I pastored was the same not IFB but independent and we cancelled services occasionally and for a while had only 1 service. I worked with an IFB pastor who was very to me legallistic, women should only wear dresses, no mixed bathing (swimming), no working on Sunday's, closed communion and since I wasn't a member but leading the music I was asked to leave the auditorium too. When my job began to require me to work on Sundays that was a major problem for him. While there are some of the old guard of the BBFI (IFB) around many of those old ways have been set aside and the BBFI (IFB) churches are changing. Don't lump them all in one basket.

 

[matt wade]

The IFB church I attend here doesn't have an Evening service so I go to the SBC church on Sunday night. The church I grew up in was not IFB it was a totally independent church and so we could and did cancel services occasionally for holidays and the like. The church I pastored was the same not IFB but independent and we cancelled services occasionally and for a while had only 1 service. I worked with an IFB pastor who was very to me legallistic, women should only wear dresses, no mixed bathing (swimming), no working on Sunday's, closed communion and since I wasn't a member but leading the music I was asked to leave the auditorium too. When my job began to require me to work on Sundays that was a major problem for him. While there are some of the old guard of the BBFI (IFB) around many of those old ways have been set aside and the BBFI (IFB) churches are changing. Don't lump them all in one basket.

Don't lump them all in one basket is a great thing to remember. That's sort of the point of all these IFB threads. Don't lump them all in one basket. You speak of BBFI churches as if they were the only IFB around. That simply isn't true. There are plenty of other IFB churches that have nothing to do with the BBFI. You are correct about BBFI changing though, I recently left a BBFI church that was/is becoming very contemporary.

 

[HAMel]

What a heavy burden some of you folks are under and carrying around.

I've been attending church for 39 years and must have sung the song, "Trust and Obey" a thousand times. I suppose you folks have done so also.

In reality, the title of this song is backwards. We need to "Obey" first and then we can "Trust". Okay, so how do we Obey?

The first scripture that comes to mind is, "If you love me keep my commandments". In everything we do and everything we say and everything we think should be bounced against that wall of, is this pleasing to the Lord?

Too many of us approach the Word with our preconceived notions and ideas often based on what we heard as children, how perhaps another considered things to be, what some Sunday School Teacher said years ago, what Grandma thought, etc.

To me, we need to approach the Bible with a blank mind and see what the Lord has to say as any of us can make the Scriptures say whatever we want them to say.

Example, I can, with Scripture Religion show you that suicide is permitted. First, Judas went out and hanged himself. Second, "What you do, do quickly."

Obviously the above is way out of context but you get what I'm saying here. To many churches are functioning on what was taught to the pastor back in Bible College or, "This is the way we've always done things" or, our rules are our rules and we ain't gonna bend 'em one iota or, well, my grand pappy used to say, etc.

How many of you realize that just a 150 years ago, in this country, singing in church was considered "VULGAR". Isn't that amazing?

What a burden so many are under and then they wonder why the Lord doesn't bless them and their churches aren't growing.

 

[humblethinker]

What a heavy burden some of you folks are under and carrying around....

How many of you realize that just a 150 years ago, in this country, singing in church was considered "VULGAR". Isn't that amazing?

What a burden so many are under and then they wonder why the Lord doesn't bless them and their churches aren't growing.

I agree absolutely!
Re singing, I had no idea!

 

[revmwc]

Don't lump them all in one basket is a great thing to remember. That's sort of the point of all these IFB threads. Don't lump them all in one basket. You speak of BBFI churches as if they were the only IFB around. That simply isn't true. There are plenty of other IFB churches that have nothing to do with the BBFI. You are correct about BBFI changing though, I recently left a BBFI church that was/is becoming very contemporary.

I asked someone once if BBFI nad IFB were the same and was told they were. That is why I posted as I did. So what is IFB verses BBFI?

 

[revmwc]

What a heavy burden some of you folks are under and carrying around.

I've been attending church for 39 years and must have sung the song, "Trust and Obey" a thousand times. I suppose you folks have done so also.

In reality, the title of this song is backwards. We need to "Obey" first and then we can "Trust". Okay, so how do we Obey?

The first scripture that comes to mind is, "If you love me keep my commandments". In everything we do and everything we say and everything we think should be bounced against that wall of, is this pleasing to the Lord?

Too many of us approach the Word with our preconceived notions and ideas often based on what we heard as children, how perhaps another considered things to be, what some Sunday School Teacher said years ago, what Grandma thought, etc.

To me, we need to approach the Bible with a blank mind and see what the Lord has to say as any of us can make the Scriptures say whatever we want them to say.

Example, I can, with Scripture Religion show you that suicide is permitted. First, Judas went out and hanged himself. Second, "What you do, do quickly."

Obviously the above is way out of context but you get what I'm saying here. To many churches are functioning on what was taught to the pastor back in Bible College or, "This is the way we've always done things" or, our rules are our rules and we ain't gonna bend 'em one iota or, well, my grand pappy used to say, etc.

How many of you realize that just a 150 years ago, in this country, singing in church was considered "VULGAR". Isn't that amazing?

What a burden so many are under and then they wonder why the Lord doesn't bless them and their churches aren't growing.

Always check the Spirit that teaches you don't depend on them to be correct.

1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

So test every Spirit and let the Holy Spirit guide to the truth. When I study for a sermon I look at commentaries and compare several opinions on the passage, get the views of others, that doesn't mean I accept those views but try them and let the Holy Spirit guide to what I teach. Those who are in a congregation need to do the same, hear the Pastor but go and study that passage he brings on your own and see if the Holy Spirit aligns you with his teaching.

 

[HAMel]

How right you are, revmwc. Many however never do..., or did, as you suggest.

 

[dcorbett]

Childhood perceptions my foot! He can't be convinced that they are saved for the simple reason a preacher HE approves of wasn't the one that led them to the Lord.

But the worst problem is that he sets himself up as the judge of another man's salvation! Who are we to judge another's salvation by man made traditions? We have a list of Fruits to judge by. My father won't even consider those as proof of salvation because my uncle didn't "follow the path" set up by my IFB father!

Childhood perceptions? I don't think so!

This is your Father's way of thinking, right? I can only know my relationship with Christ, I don't know anyone elses unless they "confess before men" and state what they believe. If I haven't heard someone's testimony, I don't even begin to assume. Even when I hear their testimony, I cannot say if they are telling a lie to placate me, so then again, I cannot assume.

My ex son-in-law abused my daughter with WHAT HE BELIEVED was the biblical way to treat a wife. He was wrong. the roots of what he believed began in the Missionary Baptist Church he was saved in - but I don't blame that church, I blame him for misinterpreting the message.

Sometimes people misinterpret the biblical relationship between a man and a woman. Yes, a man is the head of the family (right under God) and the woman is to be submissive, but if the man is walking right, he loves and respects the woman, and that includes her opinions and her needs. So the marriage is a partnership when the couple are living in God's will.

 

[Allan]

I agree absolutely!
Re singing, I had no idea!

The reason you had no idea is that he is being silly since historically singing as been a central part of corporate worship. We can back to 1600's and find hymn write like Issac Watts and further back to Luther 1500's and further still.

It is noted that Christians in the early church sang selections from the NT as well as compositions based on scriptural truth. In an especially interesting exchange of correspondence, dated AD 112, Pliny the Younger, the pagan imperial legate in Bithynia mentioned in his correspondence to to the Roman emperor Trajan, that the Christians he observed “were wont to assemble before daybreak and sing by turns a hymn to Christ as God.” These hymns sung during this time would be either a NT portion of Scripture set to music, or a Christian composition based on scriptural truth.

Church historian Systematic Theologian Charles Hodge speaks to and agrees with the above, as do a great many others

And while it is granted that music has changed over the years, scripture never tells us 'how' we should sing, only 'what' we should sing... but sing we should and even commanded to do so. Throughout scripture from the OT into the NT their was corporate singing.. Even Jesus sang at the last Supper with the disciples.. and since the Jews sang in corporate worship we KNOW Jesus did to as did the disciples.

 

[matt wade]

I asked someone once if BBFI nad IFB were the same and was told they were. That is why I posted as I did. So what is IFB verses BBFI?

IFB stands for Independent Fundamental Baptist. That simply means churches that have independent authority, are fundamental in their doctrine, and are Baptist.

BBFI is actually a fellowship of pastors. So a church isn't actually BBFI, but in practice you'll usually find that a "BBFI Church" only recruits from pastors within the BBFI fellowship. There are a bunch of other fellowships within the IFB world.

 

[HAMel]

The reason you had no idea is that he is being silly since historically singing...

Always a critic on board. Always willing to take a pot shot.

Yes, of course music has been a part of churches for generations however, there are some sects who did not and considered the practice to be vulgar.

Since I'm being so silly here ALLEN, please explain why the Primitive Baptist Still Forbid even a piano in their churches. They sign, but without music.

A Pastor in 18th Century England tried for 32 years of his ministry of close to 50 years before his congregation finally accepted singing. I'll research his name and get back with you.

 

[matt wade]

Yes, of course music has been a part of churches for generations however, there are some sects who did not and considered the practice to be vulgar.

That's quite different than your original statement of:

How many of you realize that just a 150 years ago, in this country, singing in church was considered "VULGAR". Isn't that amazing?

Reading your original statement, one would assume that you meant all churches. If that wasn't your intent, then your words were very poorly chosen.