I'm no Calvinist but...

[Whowillgo]

Romans 8:29-30 says that "For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to become conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the first-born among many brethren; 30) and whom he predestined, these he also called; and whom he called, these he also justified; and whom he justified, these he also glorified."

It's not a what he foreknew, but whom. It's a personal thing. I know of no passage in Scripture that says that God's election was based on looking ahead and seeing who would believe.[/QUOTE]

I agree it is not what it is Whom, When the above passage says "For Whom He foreknew" what did He know about them? Are you saying He based election on something besides faith?

 

[psalms109:31]

Foreknew us

2 Chronicles 16:9
For the eyes of the LORD range throughout the earth to strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him. You have done a foolish thing, and from now on you will be at war."


God didn't predestine us based on foreseen faith, He predestined those who heard the Gospel of thier salvation having believed the meek and Humble who trust in the name of the Lord to be saved. God said He was going to save them. This is why He cut them out not for not being chosen because they were, but for unbelief.

If one never hears the Gospel of thier salvation and believed they are not going to be saved , because they have not been predestined to be saved.

God wanting all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth is telling us to go out to reach them

 

[psalms109:31]

Random

God didn't choose by random, and throughout scripture, many elect have lost thier election, but those who trust in the Lord are promised salvation and have it never taken away

 

[Winman]

Romans 8:29-30 says that "For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to become conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the first-born among many brethren; 30) and whom he predestined, these he also called; and whom he called, these he also justified; and whom he justified, these he also glorified."

It's not a what he foreknew, but whom. It's a personal thing. I know of no passage in Scripture that says that God's election was based on looking ahead and seeing who would believe.

I agree it is not what it is Whom, When the above passage says "For Whom He foreknew" what did He know about them? Are you saying He based election on something besides faith?

Then you believe we existed and had a personal relationship with God before we were ever conceived and born in this world. Now show that in scripture.

You will not find that in scripture, but you will find that we are elect according to God's foreknowledge, that is plainly said in scripture.

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Your personal view is not supported by scripture, but those who believe God could see in the future and elected those he knew would believe is. And this is not the only place in scripture this is shown.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

As you can see, the scriptures say Jesus knew from the beginning who believed not, and he knew Judas would betray him before it actually happened. So the scriptures clearly show Jesus could see in the future who would believe and who would not.

 

[Winman]

God didn't choose by random, and throughout scripture, many elect have lost thier election, but those who trust in the Lord are promised salvation and have it never taken away

See, here is the problem with this doctrine, if you say a person is saved unconditionally, then a person must be lost unconditionally as well. Calvinists will agree that they are just as sinful as the unelect. The will say they were not elected because they were good. So whether you are good or bad in this life is not the issue. The only deciding factor in salvation is whether God chooses you or not. If God elects you, you will be saved, if God passes you by you will be lost. Oh, you can talk about believing on Christ, or talk about being a sinner worthy of hell, that has nothing to do with salvation if this doctrine is true, all that matters is if God elects you or chooses to pass you by. All that other stuff is secondary.

 

[psalms109:31]

Belief

See, here is the problem with this doctrine, if you say a person is saved unconditionally, then a person must be lost unconditionally as well. Calvinists will agree that they are just as sinful as the unelect. The will say they were not elected because they were good. So whether you are good or bad in this life is not the issue. The only deciding factor in salvation is whether God chooses you or not. If God elects you, you will be saved, if God passes you by you will be lost. Oh, you can talk about believing on Christ, or talk about being a sinner worthy of hell, that has nothing to do with salvation if this doctrine is true, all that matters is if God elects you or chooses to pass you by. All that other stuff is secondary.

I agree I wish i can place everything in one sentense, and foreknow what I left out.

If we know what Christ did for us we can not go back to what we once was we would be changed if we do walk away we were never His in the First place.

 

[Winman]

I agree I wish i can place everything in one sentense, and foreknow what I left out.

If we know what Christ did for us we can not go back to what we once was we would be changed if we do walk away we were never His in the First place.

The difference between the non-Cal and the Calvinist is that the non-Cal believes we were elected "in Christ", that is, we were chosen because of Christ's merit, not our own. The Calvinists on the other hand believe God elects them outside of Christ and then gives them to Christ. So, they will deny it, but they are saying God chose them for some personal merit of their own. Oh, they will say they have no idea why God chose them (which proves they are not claiming Christ as their merit), but nevertheless, for some unknown reason God just liked them and decided to save them.

 

[Whowillgo]

Then you believe we existed and had a personal relationship with God before we were ever conceived and born in this world. Now show that in scripture.

You will not find that in scripture, but you will find that we are elect according to God's foreknowledge, that is plainly said in scripture.

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Your personal view is not supported by scripture, but those who believe God could see in the future and elected those he knew would believe is. And this is not the only place in scripture this is shown.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

As you can see, the scriptures say Jesus knew from the beginning who believed not, and he knew Judas would betray him before it actually happened. So the scriptures clearly show Jesus could see in the future who would believe and who would not.

I am really confused brother in what your are disputing in my post. I have said God foreknew those who would believe in His Son, receive that word and thus be saved from the wrath to come. Based on this foreknowledge He elected those to eternal life.

 

[menageriekeeper]

I am really confused brother in what your are disputing in my post. I have said God foreknew those who would believe in His Son, receive that word and thus be saved from the wrath to come. Based on this foreknowledge He elected those to eternal life.

:laugh: The problem is that Calvinists want to leave the will of man completely out of the picture. Your quote above, still allows man to choose if he wants to be saved. They can't have that!

 

[jbh28]

I agree it is not what it is Whom, When the above passage says "For Whom He foreknew" what did He know about them? Are you saying He based election on something besides faith?

Basing it on faith, would be basing it on something good in us(faith). God's election is in agreement with his foreknowledge. The question is did we do something to earn our election(faith) or did God choose us on the pleasure of His good will?

 

[jbh28]

God didn't choose by random, and throughout scripture, many elect have lost thier election, but those who trust in the Lord are promised salvation and have it never taken away

I agree with you that those that trust the Lord and are saved never have it taken away.(John 6) Where in the Scripture do elect people(for salvation) lose their election?

 

[Whowillgo]

Basing it on faith, would be basing it on something good in us(faith). God's election is in agreement with his foreknowledge. The question is did we do something to earn our election(faith) or did God choose us on the pleasure of His good will?

So we are not saved by Grace through Faith? Grace equals His good will in accepting our faith.

 

[jbh28]

Then you believe we existed and had a personal relationship with God before we were ever conceived and born in this world. Now show that in scripture.

You will not find that in scripture, but you will find that we are elect according to God's foreknowledge, that is plainly said in scripture.

Hi Winman, Did you ever read where I posted anything that said WE existed and had a personal relationship with God"? I never said that. We were not alive before we existed. Even when we were born, we did not have a personal releationship with God. We are not "in Christ" until we are saved. That is when we have a personal relationship with God. God, however, exitsted before we were born and knew us before we were born.

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

Before Jeremiah was born, the Lord knew him. He ordained(or appointed) him to be a prophet unto the nations. It doesn't mean that God knew that Jeremiah would do that, the Lord appointed him to be a prophet.

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Your personal view is not supported by scripture, but those who believe God could see in the future and elected those he knew would believe is. And this is not the only place in scripture this is shown.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

As you can see, the scriptures say Jesus knew from the beginning who believed not, and he knew Judas would betray him before it actually happened. So the scriptures clearly show Jesus could see in the future who would believe and who would not.

My personal view is supported by Scripture(as I have demonstrated). The view that God elected because of foreseen faith isn't supported by Scripture. Yes, God knew from the beginning who would be saved. God knows everything.

 

[jbh28]

So we are not saved by Grace through Faith? Grace equals His good will in accepting our faith.

I didn't say that. We are saved by grace through personal faith in Jesus Christ. I'm checking to see if I mis worded something by accident.

 

[jbh28]

See, here is the problem with this doctrine, if you say a person is saved unconditionally, then a person must be lost unconditionally as well. Calvinists will agree that they are just as sinful as the unelect. The will say they were not elected because they were good. So whether you are good or bad in this life is not the issue. The only deciding factor in salvation is whether God chooses you or not. If God elects you, you will be saved, if God passes you by you will be lost. Oh, you can talk about believing on Christ, or talk about being a sinner worthy of hell, that has nothing to do with salvation if this doctrine is true, all that matters is if God elects you or chooses to pass you by. All that other stuff is secondary.

No, a person isn't saved unconditionally. Faith is required for salvation. Election ONLY applies to the saved and not the lost. If there was no election, ALL would end up in hell because no one will ever seek after God on their own. No one would ever put their faith in Christ. No one would ever repent. Only those that put their faith in Jesus Christ will be saved, and no one would do that without the enabling by the Holy Spirit.

 

[jbh28]

The difference between the non-Cal and the Calvinist is that the non-Cal believes we were elected "in Christ", that is, we were chosen because of Christ's merit, not our own. The Calvinists on the other hand believe God elects them outside of Christ and then gives them to Christ. So, they will deny it, but they are saying God chose them for some personal merit of their own. Oh, they will say they have no idea why God chose them (which proves they are not claiming Christ as their merit), but nevertheless, for some unknown reason God just liked them and decided to save them.

So you believe that we were chosen because of Christ's merit, not our own? Wouldn't that be unconditional election, it wasn't based on any merit on your part as a basis of your election.

 

[psalms109:31]

Grafted in

The elect are the branches in the tree, the natural branches is Israel, but the were cut out for unbelief. We are grafted in when we heard the Gospel of our salvation having believed. The remnant was kept by God because they are meek and humble and trusted in the name of the Lord.

The hidden truth is that the elect that are going to be saved from the foundation of the world is believers. Israel was His, but was cut out for unbelief. So

Romans 11:
20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

 

[jbh28]

:laugh: The problem is that Calvinists want to leave the will of man completely out of the picture. Your quote above, still allows man to choose if he wants to be saved. They can't have that!

I don't believe all the points of Calvinism.(especially limited atonement). Personally, I don't leave the will of man completely out of the picture, in fact, everything about this has to do with the will of man. It is that very will of man that is the problem. It is deceitful. It is depraved. It doesn't seek after God. It is spiritually dead. Salvation is all about changing that will. Changing the will of man to want to come to Christ. Anyone that wants to be saved can be saved. What makes a person want to come to Christ. Who changes the will of man and makes it alive? It is God that does that. John 6 says no one can come unless... After the "unless" has happened, then the person comes. He comes willingly. No one will be in heaven against their will, just as no one will be in hell against their will.

 

[Whowillgo]

I don't believe all the points of Calvinism.(especially limited atonement). Personally, I don't leave the will of man completely out of the picture, in fact, everything about this has to do with the will of man. It is that very will of man that is the problem. It is deceitful. It is depraved. It doesn't seek after God. It is spiritually dead. Salvation is all about changing that will. Changing the will of man to want to come to Christ. Anyone that wants to be saved can be saved. What makes a person want to come to Christ. Who changes the will of man and makes it alive? It is God that does that. John 6 says no one can come unless... After the "unless" has happened, then the person comes. He comes willingly. No one will be in heaven against their will, just as no one will be in hell against their will.

Now jbh I find our common ground, I would consider myself low-cal (non-fattening) and I agree with you God through the Spirit stirs man's heart into a position where man then makes a decision to accept God's grace or reject it. After all Jesus told Peter His statement of faith was not given to Him by man but by God.

 

[jaigner]

Now jbh I find our common ground, I would consider myself low-cal (non-fattening) and I agree with you God through the Spirit stirs man's heart into a position where man then makes a decision to accept God's grace or reject it. After all Jesus told Peter His statement of faith was not given to Him by man but by God.

I really like the "low-cal" thing.

I think we're kidding ourselves if we pretend either election or free will is not in the Bible. It's one of those tensions that we can discuss and work on, but in the end, we have to live with. I'm okay with that, because I know that I have heard and felt God's call on my life and have responded in faith. That's the closest I can personally get to reconciling the two in my own mind.

In that case, the pastor who was quoted at the beginning of the thread probably didn't technically say anything untrue, but I wouldn't think it would be a very appropriate use of Scripture.