Great verse! It is wonderful that God shows mercy to us even when He doesn't have to.
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I'm no Calvinist but...
- Thread starter MrJim
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Great verse! It is wonderful that God shows mercy to us even when He doesn't have to.
Great verse! It is wonderful that God shows mercy to us even when He doesn't have to.
Show me scripture that says God doesn't have to show us mercy.
:sleep: don't you people ever get tired of trying to prove you're right over this?:BangHead:
It's not the point of my thread and I'll find some mod somewhere to close the thing.
Sorry if I helped cause it to get off topic.
Show me scripture that says God doesn't have to show us mercy.
You are asking me to prove a negative. Show me in Scripture what God HAS to show us mercy. I'm not asking for where God said he would choose to show us mercy, but that He was OBLIGATED to show us mercy.
You are asking me to prove a negative. Show me in Scripture what God HAS to show us mercy. I'm not asking for where God said he would choose to show us mercy, but that He was OBLIGATED to show us mercy.
You actually said something I totally agree with there. The problem is, you use the argument that God doesn't have to show us mercy to defend your doctrine.
Now, I think that God does have to show us mercy. Even we sinners are obligated to do so. If we saw someone fall in a swimming pool and drowning, we have an obligation to at least try and save the person. Even if we can't swim ourselves, we could throw a life preserver in, or hold out a tree branch, or at the very least run and call for help. If we just stood there and watched the person drown without any attempt to save them, we could be held accountable for that.
Or, if we let a baby starve to death because it is unable to feed itself, everybody knows that is neglect, and a person could go to jail for such.
So, according to Calvinism, sinful men are more loving, good, merciful, and even more responsible than God himself. You believe God decides to pass by billions of men before they are ever born, knowing they will be tortured forever in torment when he has the complete ability to save every single one of them.
Horrible.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Great verse! It is wonderful that God shows mercy to us even when He doesn't have to.
God doesn't force Himself on anyone, because that is not love. All men have the ability through the words of Jesus, but when we hear it we must open the door for Him to come in. We have life on the outside of us, but not in us tell we open the door.
God only shows mercy to those who are humble and meek who trust in the Lord. We cannot be drawn until we listen and learn from the Father, not to be a know it all.
This is why He keeps on our door through the Spirit through the words of Jesus, because He will not come in until we humble ourselves and say we cannot save ourselves and let Him in. Isn't it great that God's shows mercy to the meek and humble, but hides it from the wise and learned. God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy on.
God doesn't force Himself on anyone, because that is not love. All men have the ability through the words of Jesus, but when we hear it we must open the door for Him to come in. We have life on the outside of us, but not in us tell we open the door.
God only shows mercy to those who are humble and meek who trust in the Lord. We cannot be drawn until we listen and learn from the Father, not to be a know it all.
This is why He keeps on our door through the Spirit through the words of Jesus, because He will not come in until we humble ourselves and say we cannot save ourselves and let Him in. Isn't it great that God's shows mercy to the meek and humble, but hides it from the wise and learned. God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy on.
Exactly. That is why I chose the painting of Jesus knocking on the door as my avatar. Total Depravity is a false doctrine. Men are sinful, but we have the ability to respond to Jesus when he knocks on the door of our heart. And only we can open the door, he is not a burglar who breaks down the door and forces himself upon us. But we do have his solemn promise that if we open the door to him, he will come in to us.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
All you have to do to be saved is open your heart to Jesus. He is patiently waiting for you to do so, he wants to save you.
olefundybob
New Member
John 16:7-11 certainly appears to indicate that the Holy Spirit brings conviction to the unregenerate. Calvin held that regeneration and repentance followed Justification. There was a root of the Spirit that brought conversion. At the counsel of Dort the pre conversion work of the Spirit and regeneration were brought together. Biblically, Titus 3:5 clearly brings together conversion and regeneration as being connected with our union with Christ at the moment of salvation. There is a pre conversion convicting of the Spirit, enlightening and convicting to convert the soul. The actual regenerating work of the Spirit appears to be connected with our actual saving moment. That involves union with Christ that brings Justification, forgiveness, adoption, Spirit indwelling, a new nature and regeneration.
John 16:7-11 certainly appears to indicate that the Holy Spirit brings conviction to the unregenerate. Calvin held that regeneration and repentance followed Justification. There was a root of the Spirit that brought conversion. At the counsel of Dort the pre conversion work of the Spirit and regeneration were brought together. Biblically, Titus 3:5 clearly brings together conversion and regeneration as being connected with our union with Christ at the moment of salvation. There is a pre conversion convicting of the Spirit, enlightening and convicting to convert the soul. The actual regenerating work of the Spirit appears to be connected with our actual saving moment. That involves union with Christ that brings Justification, forgiveness, adoption, Spirit indwelling, a new nature and regeneration.
Isn't it amazing how simply Jesus tells us to be saved in Revelations 3:20, and how complex men make it?
FR7 Baptist
Active Member
Total Depravity is a false doctrine. Men are sinful, but we have the ability to respond to Jesus when he knocks on the door of our heart.
Are you saying that we have the innate ability to come to faith in Christ?
So, you are saying that God is obligated to show mercy because it would be bad if he didn't. A couple of things to think about. First, people going to hell isn't the same as your examples. Hell is punishment for sinning. If God didn't show any mercy, we would all pay the deserved payment of our sins.You actually said something I totally agree with there. The problem is, you use the argument that God doesn't have to show us mercy to defend your doctrine.
Now, I think that God does have to show us mercy. Even we sinners are obligated to do so. If we saw someone fall in a swimming pool and drowning, we have an obligation to at least try and save the person. Even if we can't swim ourselves, we could throw a life preserver in, or hold out a tree branch, or at the very least run and call for help. If we just stood there and watched the person drown without any attempt to save them, we could be held accountable for that.
Or, if we let a baby starve to death because it is unable to feed itself, everybody knows that is neglect, and a person could go to jail for such.
Horrible.
Now, lets look at your examples. Lets say that I went to help the person that is drowning. I asked to help them and they said "no, I don't want your help." Would I be obligated to help them then? Or if a baby is starving and I ask the baby if he wants food. If he says no, am I obligated to feed him?
Or suppose a person is outside a burning building. Their child is inside. The parent refused to help the child because the child said that they didn't want help. The parent has pleaded with the child. Telling him the dangers of being in a burning building, but the child still refused to help. What would you say to such a person? Would they no longer be obligated to help that person because they didn't want it?
So, according to Calvinism(correction, according to election. Calvinism is much more broad and I don't hold to all of Calvinism. It would be like me telling someone that believed in eternal security that they are a Calvinist), sinful men are more loving, good, merciful, and even more responsible than God himself. You believe God decides to pass by billions of men before they are ever born, knowing they will be tortured forever in torment when he has the complete ability to save every single one of them.
Do you believe God has the ability to save every single individual?
John 16:7-11 certainly appears to indicate that the Holy Spirit brings conviction to the unregenerate. Calvin held that regeneration and repentance followed Justification. There was a root of the Spirit that brought conversion. At the counsel of Dort the pre conversion work of the Spirit and regeneration were brought together. Biblically, Titus 3:5 clearly brings together conversion and regeneration as being connected with our union with Christ at the moment of salvation. There is a pre conversion convicting of the Spirit, enlightening and convicting to convert the soul. The actual regenerating work of the Spirit appears to be connected with our actual saving moment. That involves union with Christ that brings Justification, forgiveness, adoption, Spirit indwelling, a new nature and regeneration.
In other words, justification and regeneration faith and repentance happens at the same time. I would agree totally.
Did Calvin believe that regeneration followed or preceded justification? I know many Calvinist that say that regeneration precedes, but I may be wrong.
Are you saying that we have the innate ability to come to faith in Christ?
No I am not. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
No one can believe in Jesus unless they first hear of him through the scriptures, or the preaching of the Word of God.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Men have the ability to believe anyone. If President Obama comes on TV tonight, I can choose to believe what he tells me, or choose not to. Believing is a choice.
But you must have an object of faith. We are not born knowing about the true God and Jesus Christ, and no man would ever think of God's plan for salvation on his own. Only because God has revealed his Son Jesus to us through the scriptures can we place our faith in him.
Matt 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
If God did not provide his Holy scriptures for us, none of us would know about Jesus and be unable to place our faith in him and would be lost forever without hope.
FR7 Baptist
Active Member
Winman, the problem with your other posts is you're making it sound like we can come to saving faith in Christ without the grace of God enabling us first. Also, your denial of total depravity is somewhat disturbing.
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Winman, the problem with your other posts is you're making it sound like we can come to saving faith in Christ without the grace of God enabling us first. Also, your denial of total depravity is somewhat disturbing.
You don't consider the word of God grace?
I don't deny that all men are sinful, that is obvious. But I do deny that a person has to be regenerated to have the ability to believe the gospel. Many people believed on Jesus before the Holy Spirit was given to them.
John 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
The Samaritans believed on Jesus, and the scriptures tell us why, "for the saying of the woman".
Did she have the power to regenerate these people?
And then it is shown when Jesus came into the city they believed on him, and again it explains what caused this faith.
John 6:40 So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days.
41 And many more believed because of his own word;
42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
There is not one word here about the Holy Spirit regenerating anyone. It says they believed because they heard the testimony of the woman, and then it says they believed because they heard the words of Jesus themselves. And how did they know he was the Christ? Because they had been taught the scriptures all their lives and knew that God had promised to send the Christ, the Messiah to save them.
John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
That is just what I showed you before, faith comes by hearing the word of God.
And we know that none of these people had the Holy Spirit, because in chapter 6 it says the Holy Spirit was not yet given to believers.
John 6:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
The only reason you can't comprehend this is because you have been taught Calvinistic error. All men have the ability to believe the word of God if they choose to do so. It is only after believing the word of God that you receive the Spirit.
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Here Paul asks believers how they received the Holy Spirit. Was it by doing the works of the law? No. Was it by hearing and believing God's word? Yes.
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FR7 Baptist
Active Member
You don't consider the word of God grace?
I don't deny that all men are sinful, that is obvious. But I do deny that a person has to be regenerated to have the ability to believe the gospel. Many people believed on Jesus before the Holy Spirit was given to them.
No one can believe the Gospel without God's prevenient grace enabling them to do so.
The only reason you can't comprehend this is because you have been taught Calvinistic error. All men have the ability to believe the word of God if they choose to do so. It is only after believing the word of God that you receive the Spirit.
The question is are all men innately able to believe or is it because God enables them to do so. I believe that unless God draws someone, they will and can not come to Christ. However, I believe that God draws all people. BTW, what makes you think I'm a Calvinist?
No one can believe the Gospel without God's prevenient grace enabling them to do so.
Prevenient simply means "coming before". You are correct, but you are not able to understand that God's word is that prevenient grace.
Faith is not some magical force. Everyone has faith. Everytime you open a can of soup you are exercising faith, you are trusting that the contents are safe to eat. Everytime you drive you are trusting that your brakes will safely stop the car, if you didn't you would quickly take the car to the shop.
Faith is simply taking God at his word, trusting his promises. When Jesus says he is knocking at the door, and that if you will open he will come in, that is a promise. You either believe it or not. If you believe it, you open the door of your heart to Jesus (your will) and invite him in. If you do not believe Jesus and consider the scriptures a lie, then you will not.
It is not our faith that saves us, faith brings us to Christ, and then Jesus himself does the saving. He is the one with power.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
You have the ability to receive Jesus or reject him. You either say yes to Jesus, or you say no. There is nothing supernatural about that. But if you will receive Jesus, he has the ability to give you the power to become a son of God.
But you would not even be brought to this point of receiving or rejecting Jesus unless you had heard of him through God's word. That is God's grace right there. Without the scriptures none of us would have a clue, we would all be lost without any chance of being saved.
Calvinism, much like Catholicism which it came from turns faith into some magical supernatural thing it is not. It is the mystical religion of Babylon.
Sure you have a "choice" to believe what Obama says. However, would you not agree that several factors are involved in this "choice" to believe what he says? You do have reasons that you do not believe certain things that he says. You do not disbelieve what he says because you make some simple willy-nilly "choice" in a vacuum. You disbelieve what he says because you have certain fundamental constraints that keep you from believing him.Men have the ability to believe anyone. If President Obama comes on TV tonight, I can choose to believe what he tells me, or choose not to. Believing is a choice.
One believes something according to several important limiting factors:
1. nature
2. revealed information
3. will
Actually believing something is not simple matter of making a "choice" in a vacuum. I cannot simply snap my fingers and actually assent to believing that the moon is made of green cheese. I can lie and say that I believe this, but, all things being what they are, I simply do not have the capacity available to believe such a thing.
First, it would have to be in my nature as a human being to believe such a thing. Sure, my nature can allow this, but this would depend on the other two factors.
Second, I would need information revealed to me to convince me that the moon is made of green cheese. Someone merely stating this does not qualify as "revealed information." My intelligence must be able to process information internally sufficient to enlighten me to this new fact. Previous information existing in my brain will disregard new information that is not sufficient and convincing to overthrow what I currently regard as truth.
Third, my will is dependent upon the previous two factors. My will is bound to both my nature and any information that is revealed to my internal being that I can reasonably regard as truth. The only way that I could possibly believe that the moon is made of green cheese despite what I currently know from astronomy, photographs, physics, and cosmology would be a miraculous change whereby the Holy Spirit bears witness with my spirit that the moon is made of green cheese. He would have to perform a miracle in me whereby the new statement overthrows what I perceive as truthful.
Exactly. One human merely presenting the words of Scripture to other humans is not sufficient to give this "50/50" choice. Something else must happen, such as regeneration by the Holy Spirit, whereby the truth of the Gospel is revealed in the heart as actual truthful information by virtue of the nature and will being changed.But you must have an object of faith. We are not born knowing about the true God and Jesus Christ, and no man would ever think of God's plan for salvation on his own. Only because God has revealed his Son Jesus to us through the scriptures can we place our faith in him.
:thumbs:If God did not provide his Holy scriptures for us, none of us would know about Jesus and be unable to place our faith in him and would be lost forever without hope.
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