I'm no Calvinist but...

[MrJim]

You may get more than reported. You may get banned.
What filthy language. You should be ashamed.

At this point I could really give a ..... You people are outta control.

 

[FR7 Baptist]

Prevenient simply means "coming before". You are correct, but you are not able to understand that God's word is that prevenient grace.

You have the ability to receive Jesus or reject him. You either say yes to Jesus, or you say no. There is nothing supernatural about that. But if you will receive Jesus, he has the ability to give you the power to become a son of God.

This is where we disagree. I think it takes a supernatural act of God to overcome certain effects of total depravity for us to be restored to a level where we have a free will in salvation. That's where prevenient grace comes into play.

But you would not even be brought to this point of receiving or rejecting Jesus unless you had heard of him through God's word. That is God's grace right there. Without the scriptures none of us would have a clue, we would all be lost without any chance of being saved.

Yet another area of disagreement. If someone is without the Gospel, they still have free will in salvation, they just lack the opportunity to use it.

Calvinism, much like Catholicism which it came from turns faith into some magical supernatural thing it is not. It is the mystical religion of Babylon.

Without supernatural action, we can not have faith. I'm not a Calvinist or a Catholic, but you're being pretty harsh.

 

[Winman]

Sure you have a "choice" to believe what Obama says. However, would you not agree that several factors are involved in this "choice" to believe what he says? You do have reasons that you do not believe certain things that he says. You do not disbelieve what he says because you make some simple willy-nilly "choice" in a vacuum. You disbelieve what he says because you have certain fundamental constraints that keep you from believing him.

One believes something according to several important limiting factors:
1. nature
2. revealed information
3. will

Actually believing something is not simple matter of making a "choice" in a vacuum. I cannot simply snap my fingers and actually assent to believing that the moon is made of green cheese. I can lie and say that I believe this, but, all things being what they are, I simply do not have the capacity available to believe such a thing.

Who is believing in a vacuum? I believe because of what the scriptures say, and some of the scriptures are fantastic things to believe. When I first heard how God parted the Red Sea, or how Jesus walked on water or healed people with his word, those are fantastic things to believe. I have never seen a miracle in my life. Believe me, I thought about those things and considered them. But the scriptures were so full of truth to me that I believed them. They told how man really is, no book is like that.

John 7:45 Then came the officers to the chief priests and Pharisees; and they said unto them, Why have ye not brought him?
46 The officers answered, Never man spake like this man.
47 Then answered them the Pharisees, Are ye also deceived?
48 Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him?

These men were sent to capture Jesus, but when they heard his words they knew he was no ordinary man. They got out of there quick.

And that is how it was for me too. I could tell this was no ordinary book written by men. Boy, when I read the book of Revelations it terrified me. No man can write a book like the Bible. I knew it was true and I trusted on Jesus.

So, I can't speak for you, but I certainly didn't believe in a vacuum, it was God's Word that convinced me.

 

[FR7 Baptist]

At this point I could really You people are outta control.

Judging from the disturbing quote in your signature, I've been thinking you're out of control.

And that is how it was for me too. I could tell this was no ordinary book written by men. Boy, when I read the book of Revelations it terrified me. No man can write a book like the Bible.

I agree with you on this. The Bible is a treasure of divine revelation.

 

[MrJim]

Judging from the disturbing quote in your signature, I've been thinking you're out of control.
.

Just not sure what else I can do to get my thread closed that you people hijacked. If I could set fire to it I would.

 

[Winman]

Judging from the disturbing quote in your signature, I've been thinking you're out of control.

Oh, it's not that surprising, that is the effect God's word has on some.

Acts 8:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

Acts 8:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

You see, the scriptures are not just ink on paper.

 

[AresMan]

Faith is not some magical force. Everyone has faith. Everytime you open a can of soup you are exercising faith, you are trusting that the contents are safe to eat. Everytime you drive you are trusting that your brakes will safely stop the car, if you didn't you would quickly take the car to the shop.

Are not these instances of "faith" grounded upon internally assumed facts of information?

By the way, I trust that the car is safe to drive based upon reasonable information (no obtrusive sounds or behavior) and proven consistency. In other words, I do not make equal "decisions" to "trust" my car every single time. My "trust" changes when the car starts to make sounds or motions that it did not before. Otherwise, my nature and currently revealed information convince me that the car will operate as normal. If every single time I used the car I made a simply "50/50" "choice" to "trust" the car's operation, probability and statistics would argue that I would be bringing the car to the shop rather often.

The way you compare faith in the Gospel--a "scandalous" message--with everyday chores and assumptions of intuition or acceptance of commodity knowledge, you lessen the importance and significance of the Gospel. If believing the Gospel by faith--the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things NOT SEEN--is merely another instance of flipping a light switch, then cannot one simply argue the case that he is the victim of statistic or mistake by simply "making the wrong choice"?

Faith is simply taking God at his word, trusting his promises. When Jesus says he is knocking at the door, and that if you will open he will come in, that is a promise. You either believe it or not. If you believe it, you open the door of your heart to Jesus (your will) and invite him in. If you do not believe Jesus and consider the scriptures a lie, then you will not.

The Gospel message itself is a simple message. That does not mean that believing it is some "easy" flip of a switch inherent in everyone.

1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

According to this passage it seems that both Jews and Gentiles (encompassing everyone) as a whole face the problem of willful rejection of the Gospel. The Gospel, without the regeneration of the Holy Spirit, according to the nature and will of the Jews and Gentiles is not regarded as truth.

However, to the ones "which are called" (exactly being those who are saved/believe) Christ is "the power of God" and "the wisdom of God." Christ is the power and wisdom of God ONLY to the "called" ones.

How does this work? To these individuals who are exceptions to the rule of the Jews and Gentiles as a whole, God reveals the Gospel ("the foolishness of God" and "the weakness of God") as truthful information to those whom he "calls."

Verse 25 is not a statement regarding every individual person; otherwise every individual person would be saved by virtue of the fact that this "foolishness" and "weakness" is "wiser" and "stronger" than they are. The "because" in verse 25 links these statements to the effect of Christ--this "power" and "wisdom"--on the "called ones." Because these "called" ones are not the whole of mankind, the operation of this power and wisdom are not upon every individual. Those whom God "calls" He reveals Christ (i.e. the Gospel message) upon them as "power" and "wisdom" that is "wiser" and "stronger" than they. Thus, this passage is but one of several that unequivocally teaches an effectual calling that results in salvation for all those who would become believers.

Verse 26 shows that the "calling" is not a result of that which is intrinsic in the nature of man or represents his own abilities. Not many "wise," "mighty," or "noble" are "called." The "scandalous" Gospel message cannot be received as truth by the inherent nature of man; God must "call" someone and the Holy Spirit must reveal it as truth within and defeat the opposing "wisdom," "might," and "nobleness."

Once information is witnessed within as truth, how can one not believe something regarded as truth? One can attempt to lie by disclaiming it. However, one must believe something that one regards as truth. Anything otherwise would be nonsense and illogical.

It is not our faith that saves us, faith brings us to Christ, and then Jesus himself does the saving. He is the one with power.

True, it is not our faith that saves us. Christ saves us. Could not faith be part of His own work on our behalf in saving us?

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Hmm. You left off an important verse:

Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The ones that "believe" on His name were born of God. εγεννηθησαν ("have been born") is an aorist passive, which chronologically precedes πιστευουσιν ("are believing"), which is a present active participle. This verse is consistent with the following verse:

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

γεγεννηται ("has been born") is a perfect passive, which chronologically precedes πιστευων ("is believing"), which is a present active participle.

Both of these verses teach that those who believe the Gospel do so because they have been born of God.

You have the ability to receive Jesus or reject him. You either say yes to Jesus, or you say no. There is nothing supernatural about that.

I would beg to differ. Verses such as Romans 3:10-12 that teach that "none seek after God" and 1 Corinthians 1:23-26 among many others teach otherwise.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

How can you POSSIBLY declare that "there is nothing supernatural" about believing the Gospel with the witness of so many Scriptures that seem to make such a big deal about it?! The Scriptures even present the roles of all three members of the Trinity in salvation: the Father draws and gives, the Son atones and keeps, and the Holy Spirit regenerates. Salvation is, in its entirety a MIRACLE of God. Faith in the "scandal" of the Gospel is equally part of this MIRACLE.

But if you will receive Jesus, he has the ability to give you the power to become a son of God.

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

But you would not even be brought to this point of receiving or rejecting Jesus unless you had heard of him through God's word. That is God's grace right there. Without the scriptures none of us would have a clue, we would all be lost without any chance of being saved.

Without the work of the Holy Spirit using the Word of God, no one believes the "scandal." The grace of God is much more than the mere existence of the Gospel message. It is the regeneration of the will whereby the Gospel becomes truth in one's heart.

Calvinism, much like Catholicism which it came from turns faith into some magical supernatural thing it is not. It is the mystical religion of Babylon.

You, by reducing Gospel faith to that of everyday chores that one does out of habit and intuition, destroy the power of the Gospel itself and the miracle of the calling of God to salvation. The Scriptures describe believers as exceptions to the exhaustive norm and this calling as a result of the "power" and "wisdom" of God!

 

[rsr]

At the request of the thread's author, this discussion is being closed.