Immortal Soul/Spirit Theology, Part Of The False Gospel, Practicers Of Necromancy

[One Baptism]

... Luke 23:43. 'And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."'

... continued ...

[9]

The Greek, The English and the placement of a single punctuation, a “comma” [the "editions" of the KJB, the corrected spelling, punctuation, etc]:

The King James, as other translations, basically share this format in the English,

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.” Luke 23:43​

It is generally because of where the comma is placed [which normally would not mean so much if misplaced however] in this sentence in the English, alters the immediate context, other passages, and even a whole doctrine which is taught from Genesis to Revelation on matters of death & resurrection. This location is one of the places that the editors in the "editions" of the KJB [to correct spelling, etc], missed.

The Koine Greek, reads [without punctuation]:

As would be found in an ancient document:

καιειπεναυτωοιησουςαμηνλεγωσοισημερονμετεμουεσηεντ ωπαραδεισω - Luke 23:43​

As commonly understood:

και ειπεν αυτω ο ιησους αμην λεγω σοι σημερον μετ εμου εση εν τω παραδεισω - Luke 23:43​

As we may see, the comma, is merely an addition of men, to try and help the reader understand the structure of any given sentence. Yet, here in this instance, we see it was missed in the correcting process in the E"dition" of the KJB. The placement of a comma can change the meaning entirely, for instance, a few common ones found online:

"Let's eat, Grandma!" vs.
"Let's eat Grandma!"

"A woman, without her, man is nothing." vs
"A woman without her man, is nothing."​

etc.

Therefore, notice what happens when the comma is removed, or changed, or added and make every Caps or lowercase:

No Punctuation:

[1A] AND JESUS SAID UNTO HIM VERILY I SAY UNTO THEE TO DAY SHALT THOU BE WITH ME IN PARADISE - Luke 23:43

[1B] and jesus said unto him verily i say unto thee to day shalt thou be with me in paradise - Luke 23:43​

KJB Punctuation:

[2A] AND JESUS SAID UNTO HIM, VERILY I SAY UNTO THEE, TO DAY SHALT THOU BE WITH ME IN PARADISE. - Luke 23:43

[2B] and jesus said unto him, verily i say unto thee, to day shalt thou be with me in paradise. - Luke 23:43
​

Moved Punctuation to KJB:

[3A] AND JESUS SAID UNTO HIM, VERILY I SAY UNTO THEE TO DAY, SHALT THOU BE WITH ME IN PARADISE. - Luke 23:43

[3B] and jesus said unto him, verily i say unto thee to day, shalt thou be with me in paradise. - Luke 23:43​

Corrected Punctuation to KJB:

[4A] AND JESUS SAID UNTO HIM, VERILY I SAY UNTO THEE, TO DAY, SHALT THOU BE WITH ME IN PARADISE. - Luke 23:43

[4B] and jesus said unto him, verily i say unto thee, to day, shalt thou be with me in paradise. - Luke 23:43​

Well, where should the comma, if any, go?

... to be continued ...

 

[One Baptism]

... Luke 23:43. 'And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."'

... point [9] continued ...

Some cite the following Scriptures [below] and claim the pattern therein, is in favor of the comma, being before the "to day", only, like as presently read in the KJB:

And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man. - John 1:51

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. - John 3:3

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. - John 3:5

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. - John 3:11

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. - John 5:19

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. - John 5:24

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. - John 5:25

Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. - John 6:26

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. - John 6:32

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. - John 6:47

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. - John 6:53

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. - John 8:34

Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. - John 8:51

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. - John 8:58

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. - John 10:1

Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. - John 10:7

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. - John 12:24

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. - John 13:16

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. - John 13:20

When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me. - John 13:21

Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice. - John 13:38

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. - John 14:12

Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy. - John 16:20

And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give [it] you. - John 16:23

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry [thee] whither thou wouldest not. - John 21:18

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. - Matthew 5:18

Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. - Matthew 5:26

Therefore when thou doest [thine] alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. - Matthew 6:2

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. - Matthew 6:5

Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. - Matthew 6:16

When Jesus heard [it], he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. - Matthew 8:10

Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. - Matthew 10:15

But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. - Matthew 10:2

And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold [water] only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward. - Matthew 10:42

For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous [men] have desired to see [those things] which ye see, and have not seen [them]; and to hear [those things] which ye hear, and have not heard [them]. - Matthew 13:17​

... to be continued ...

 

[One Baptism]

... Luke 23:43. 'And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."'

... point [9] finished ...

The bolded "Black" portion is a very good observation of the placement of the comma's, but it is also begging the question a little bit, by attempting to prove from further man-added punctuation, not found in the Koine Greek. Those which normally cite these passages to prove their apriori generally do not take into consideration the fact that it does not prove what they think it does so easily, but rather it proves more than they would want. Please go back and look again at the next comma to follow in the sentences, always after a section which has multiple parts. See the highlighted "red" comma's and/or semi-colon's, which is exaclty what Luke 23:43 does. All that has happened is that a punctuation correction was missed in the process, or mistakenly left out of the printing blocks.

Thus Luke 23:43 should very well look like the following, simply based upon that previous pattern, thus see Corrected Punctuation to KJB example (above):

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise. - Luke 23:43​

The word "to day" is a section of the sentence unto itself following "Verily I say unto thee," like the other pieces of sentence in the other examples. Jesus is imply telling the penitent thief, "Today", if ye hear my voice, harden not your heart and believe, and we shall be [future tense] with Jesus in Paradise, when He cometh into His kingdom. He is not promising the penitent thief that he would be in Paradise that very day, since even Jesus Himself did not go then, see points 1-8 already given.

Scripture say, that the "words" would be "preserved" forever:

The words of the LORD [are] pure words: [as] silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. - Psalm 12:6

Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. - Psalm 12:7​

Notice, it has nothing to say of punctuation. For that, we need to consult the Scriptures [KJB], in their context and line upon line, comparing each part with another in their wholeness, not arbitrarily assign a place to where we think something ought to go.

In context, the comma should actually be after the word “To day”, in either:

Best:

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise. - Luke 23:43​

or alternatively [yet not best]:

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise. - Luke 23:43​

The KJB in Luke 23:43, needs to come into harmony with all of the Scripture.

The latter should be our answer, since according to scripture itself, “...the scripture cannot be broken.” [John 10:35]

Additionally, never should any person seek to hang any doctrine upon the case of a punctuation mark, or even a single text for that matter, for Scripture is always to be understood in such a manner:

“For precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little:” - Isaiah 28:10​

What is amazing, is that people, without study, hang an entire [false] doctrine upon a single comma, and the hang there with all their might, when all the evidence is against them. Poor, pitiable, stubborn mankind, unwilling to follow Truth where He leads.

Luke 23:43 KJB finished.

 

[One Baptism]

I came across those arguments sixty years ago - one of our chemistry lecturers was a Christadelphian. also a fellow student.

Solomon in Ecclesiastes is speaking apparently with authority, with God-given wisdom, so how can we question his assertions?

Read Ecclesiastes 1 to see his basic premise - to explore by wisdom all that is done under heaven. ... under the sun.

He is deliberately limiting his quest to what can be found by observation rather than divine revelation. He is reasoning like an atheist philosopher and comes to the conclusion - everything is meaningless.

When he brings the Creator into consideration, his conclusion is - fear God..... and he also wrote Proverbs.

Ecclesiastes:

Here is the verse and some immediate context:

Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJB - For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ecclesiastes 9:6 KJB - Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJB - Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.​

According to these texts of Scripture, written by Solomon, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit:

2 Timothy 3:16 KJB - All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Peter 1:21 KJB - For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.​

We see that the texts under immediate consideration say:

1. The living "know" that they shall die
2. the dead "know" not anything​

Only those which bypass the first part, attempt to negate the second. For if they attempt to say that the dead really do know something, which is polar opposite of the text, it would also have to reverse the first portion, meaning that the living do not know that they are going to die, and is pure contradiction to all of Scripture.

Then consider the next portion, speaking of the "dead" which "know not anything", for even:

1. "Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished"​

The Hebrew word "אָבַד", Transliterated: "'abad", in English - "perished", means gone, not, ceased to be, blot out, exterminate, destroy, kill, put to death - source Strong's Concordance.

Now, consider the latter text, and see yet one further aspect:

1. while living do everything with one's "might" given them of God
2a. because in death, "for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom"​

and yet further, the text clearly reveals that it is to the grave that mankind in their death go:

2b. "in the grave, whither thou goest"​

Yet, some will attempt to address the whole of Ecclesiastes with a wave of the hand by disparaging Solomon or the words therein. One ought to remember Who it was that actually inspired this "Preacher" and his words - Ecclesiastes 1:1.

One must remember, that this "Preacher" is the type of Christ Jesus. For Solomon, whose name means the "Peace", is the "Son of David", the "wise" one who built the Temple of the Lord and reigned in Glory like no other King. Jesus said:

John 5:39 KJB - Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.​

Therefore, let us not so readily dismiss or disparage the words in Ecclesiastes as of one which is simply speaking of melancholy, for he is not. Iit truly is a sermon from the "Preacher", who is indeed "wise" which taught the people "knowledge", not "vanity":

Ecclesiastes 12:9 KJB - And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, [and] set in order many proverbs.​

In fact, the last words of Ecclesiastes actually sum it all up for us:

Ecclesiastes 12:10 KJB - The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and [that which was] written [was] upright, [even] words of truth.

Ecclesiastes 12:11 KJB - The words of the wise [are] as goads, and as nails fastened [by] the masters of assemblies, [which] are given from one shepherd.

Ecclesiastes 12:12 KJB - And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books [there is] no end; and much study [is] a weariness of the flesh.

Ecclesiastes 12:13 KJB - Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.

Ecclesiastes 12:14 KJB - For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil.​

Solomon gave us "acceptable words", even wrote that which was "upright" and not fallen, yes even, "words of Truth". These, says he, are "words of the wise", being "goads" and were as "nails" of the "masters of assemblies", and "given from one Shepherd" - Jesus Christ.

Solomon says, "be admonished" by these words, and then says, "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter".

"Fear God".
"keep His commandments" - which "is the whole [duty] of mankind/Adam".

Why?

For men will be judged by the Commandments of God, and God will bring every work of men/Adam into that Judgment.

What is more amazing, is that after many 'throw Solomon under the bus' for being melancholy, attempting to remove the words spoken that the "dead know not anything", they turn right around and use this verse:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJB - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.​

In the very same book, which they speak so poorly of, in the previous verses, to attempt to justify the satanic/pagan/occult - Gen. 3:4 belief that the "dead" somehow are inherently immortal and alive somewhere.

Yet, even that verse does not teach what they would desire of it. For notice that "the dust" which we/mankind is taken from - Gen. 2:7, returns to "dust", the "earth" even "as it was", and the "spirit" or "breath of life of God", which is His, not ours, returns unto Him.

We do not "return" unto Him [He has to come for us all together [John 14:1-4 KJB], for we are "dust" and to "dust we shall return":

Genesis 3:19 KJB - In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.​

Yet, they will refuse such plain passages, and declare 'no!' the "spirit' which 'we are' returns unto God, and therefore, the text not allowing any distinction, also allow even the wicked to return unto Heaven by their saying, for that is where God is, and the occult use the text in such a manner to say Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Marx, etc are in Heaven, and so on:

"Father which is in heaven".

Solomon was not merely speaking of the righteous, but all men which die.

Proverbs 8:7 KJB - For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness [is] an abomination to my lips.​

 

[One Baptism]

Now read Ps 73. Asaph begins by considering the prosperity of the wicked, contrasted with the suffering of the upright.

Then his thoughts turn to God, and the state of man after death. Not what Ecclesiastes reasoned - silence in the grave, but a sudden awakening in terror.

As for the future of the godly in death - You guide me with your counsel, and afterwards you will take me into glory.

You are reasoning like the Sadducees - Jesus assured them that God is God of the living - the God of Abraham ... Isaac ... and Jacob.

Psalms 73, reveals what happens to the wicked, in the context of the Sanctuary (Psalms 77:13 KJB) itself:

Psalms 73:16 KJB - When I thought to know this, it was too painful for me;

Psalms 73:17 KJB - Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.

Psalms 73:18 KJB - Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction.

Psalms 73:19 KJB - How are they brought into desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly consumed with terrors.

Psalms 73:27 KJB - For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.​

Notice the words (highlighted) associated with the Sanctuary service.

Asaph, in referring to the Sanctuary, said that once he went in, it was then that he understood their end (not prolongation). Why, what did he see?

He saw that the animals represented the wicked, the brute beasts, who had the sins upon them. They were killed, slaughtered into pieces, cut up, divided and went into "slippery places", and their blood was spilled upon the ground, while the carcass, and fat, was burned upon the altar of slaughter (brazen altar) in the courtyard (which is symbolic of the earth, for thus is where Christ Jesus the Lamb was slain), and was entirely consumed into smoke and ashes, nothing remaining.

This is the typological imagery, that foreshadows the death, and ultimate terrors and destruction (to come) of the finally impenitent.

The Sanctuary service is seen in Revelation 20, where all the finally impenitent are raised at the end of the 1,000 years in the 3rd Advent of Jesus, and along with Satan and his angels are consumed in the lake of fire, being the second death. That fire will burn until, Satan, the last one becomes ashes (Ezekiel 26:21, 27:36, 28:19; Obadiah 1:16; Malachi 4:1,3 KJB; Satan said, "I am...", but God says, Never shalt thou be ..), and the fire purifies this sin polluted earth. God will then create right there, the New Heaven and New Earth wherein will dwell everlasting righteousness, and sin shall not arise a second time.

Go back, read Psalms 73, and go and learn what the Sanctuary services means, as the book of Hebrews, Revelation and the OT texts show.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Well, where should the comma, if any, go?

First of all, you are the man who keeps on saying KJB, KJB, KJB! So why, all of a sudden to you believe your precious KJB has written such an egregious error? If it makes one error, perhaps it has made a load more! Perhaps you'd better stop using it.

Next, the Lord Jesus uses the words "verily," or "verily, verily" around 100 times in the Gospels. Can you find one other place where the Lord Jesus says, "Verily, I say unto you today........"? And what would it mean if that were really what He said? It would mean nothing. What possible difference would it make if you left it off? It means nothing! Suppose He said, "Verily, I say to you yesterday....." or "verily, I say to you a week next Tuesday.....". It would make no sense! To try to deny the blindingly obvious meaning of Luke 23:43, you have the Lord Jesus uttering something utterly superfluous and meaningless.

Next, you have denied that the account of the Rich Man and Lazarus can be used to prove that souls live on after death (as it so obviously does) on the grounds that it is a parable. Now you are saying that the Parable of the Minas proves that the Lord Jesus was not a King (contra verses like John 1:49 and John 18:36-37). Now which is it? Either parables can be used to make secondary points or they can't-- which is it?

I have no intention of reading all the rest of the vast screed you have put out. Why do you think that precious few people answer your posts? It's because they have you on ignore! Who has the time to read all that nonsense? I have skim-read a few extracts and I'll reply to them as I have time, but it will probably be after the weekend because I have other more important stuff to do.

 

[One Baptism]

Ecclesiastes 12:7. 'Then the dust [i.e. the dead body] will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.' ...

Yes, indeed, Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJB, proves the OP, and everything I have said and quoted from the scripture [KJB].

Notice, we, the "dust" (formed, ordered), once the breath of life of God, being His breath, His life (which we borrow), is taken back, return to "dust" (unformed).

The "spirit" in that passage is God's life giving breath (active agency), by which the "dust" (formed, ordered) was made to live and breath, thus becoming a whole unit, a living soul/creature/being.

Mankind is made of the "dust" (formed, ordered):

Genesis 2:7 KJB - And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 3:19 KJB - In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.​

See, we return to the ground, dust. We stay that way, until a resurrection.

Psalms 104:29 KJB - Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.​

This is just as Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJB says. Notice the word "return", and the two locations of which the two things (1. dust & 2. breath/spirit) return to. We, the "dust" (formed, ordered), return to the ground from which we were made from, and the breath of life of God, His spirit, which He lent unto us, goes back to Him, its Originator.

Take notice, that all such "spirit", whether lent (gave, the Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away, blessed be the name of the Lord) to the "dust" of mankind (good or evil, saved or lost) or lent to the beasts, returns to God in Heaven, as the passage makes no distinction of the "spirit" lent (gave) to any of them. It is the active principle that makes alive, that which had not been alive.

There are many passages which reveal this over and over again:

Job 27:3, 34:14; Genesis 6:17, 7:15; Job 9:18, 12:10, 17:1, 19:17; Psalms 104:29, 146:4; Ecclesiastes 3:19, 8:8; Lamentations 4:20; Ezekiel 37:5-6, 8-10; Habakkuk 2:18.​

Idols (formed clay, earth, stone, wood, etc) have no such breath of life of God, ie, no such spirit from Him, thus are not alive:

Psalms 135:17; Jeremiah 10:14, 51:17, etc.​

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, indeed, Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJB, proves the OP, and everything I have said and quoted from the scripture [KJB].

Notice, we, the "dust" (formed, ordered), once the breath of life of God, being His breath, His life (which we borrow), is taken back, return to "dust" (unformed).

The "spirit" in that passage is God's life giving breath (active agency), by which the "dust" (formed, ordered) was made to live and breath, thus becoming a whole unit, a living soul/creature/being.

Mankind is made of the "dust" (formed, ordered):

Genesis 2:7 KJB - And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 3:19 KJB - In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.​

See, we return to the ground, dust. We stay that way, until a resurrection.

Psalms 104:29 KJB - Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.​

This is just as Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJB says. Notice the word "return", and the two locations of which the two things (1. dust & 2. breath/spirit) return to. We, the "dust" (formed, ordered), return to the ground from which we were made from, and the breath of life of God, His spirit, which He lent unto us, goes back to Him, its Originator.

Take notice, that all such "spirit", whether lent (gave, the Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away, blessed be the name of the Lord) to the "dust" of mankind (good or evil, saved or lost) or lent to the beasts, returns to God in Heaven, as the passage makes no distinction of the "spirit" lent (gave) to any of them. It is the active principle that makes alive, that which had not been alive.

There are many passages which reveal this over and over again:

Job 27:3, 34:14; Genesis 6:17, 7:15; Job 9:18, 12:10, 17:1, 19:17; Psalms 104:29, 146:4; Ecclesiastes 3:19, 8:8; Lamentations 4:20; Ezekiel 37:5-6, 8-10; Habakkuk 2:18.​

Idols (formed clay, earth, stone, wood, etc) have no such breath of life of God, ie, no such spirit from Him, thus are not alive:

Psalms 135:17; Jeremiah 10:14, 51:17, etc.​

Jesus stated that NONE in him shall ever really die, and he NEVER mentioned soul sleep, nor did any Apostle!

 

[Walter]

I have not read the entire thread, so I'm not sure if this has already been presented. Scripture itself refutes this man-made doctrine of 'soul sleep'. In Revelation 6:9-10, John writes, "When he (Christ) opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, 'O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?'"

Here John sees the disembodied souls of early Christian martyrs. The fact they are disembodied is known because they have been slain. Thus disembodied souls exist. The fact they are conscious is known because they cry out to God for vengeance. Unconscious people can't do that. Thus conscious, disembodied souls exist.

 

[One Baptism]

I have not read the entire thread, so I'm not sure if this has already been presented. Scripture itself refutes this man-made doctrine of 'soul sleep'. In Revelation 6:9-10, John writes, "When he (Christ) opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, 'O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?'"

Here John sees the disembodied souls of early Christian martyrs. The fact they are disembodied is known because they have been slain. Thus disembodied souls exist. The fact they are conscious is known because they cry out to God for vengeance. Unconscious people can't do that. Thus conscious, disembodied souls exist.

Hello, thank you for joining us, but this text and/or passage was brought up on the very first page, post #11 - Immortal Soul/Spirit Theology, Part Of The False Gospel, Practicers Of Necromancy

Presently, I am responding to posts in order of reply, and I am going to reply to that post and your own after a few more, OK?

Please take some time to go through and read the posts, it will not take that long, as I am able to read through all of it in less than an hour. Please do this as a brotherly courtesy to me, and others posting here.

I will try to get to this passage as soon as I am able, once the other few texts that were brought up are considered first, please have patience with me, thank you!

 

[One Baptism]

... 2 Corinthians 5:8. 'We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.'

Please read these texts in their context, comparing each phrase with the others, especially those with like or similar terminology, and will see how 2 Corinthians 5:8 KJB, align perfectly with the OP, and subsequent posts of it.

2 Corinthians 5:1-10; Romans 8:22-23; 1 Corinthians 15:51-54; Ephesians 1:13-14; Romans 8:11; Philippians 1:20-24; Romans 8:19-25; Colossians 3:4; 1 John 3:2; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 2 Timothy 4:6-8 KJB​

A short study on "absent" = away or not present, or not at home & "present" = "be at home" :

Genesis 31:49; 1 Corinthians 5:3; 2 Corinthians 5:6,8,9, 10:1,11, 13:2,10; Philippians 1:27; Colossians 2:5 KJB​

Let's look and compare now. Paul what did you mean, lest we be a fulfilment of what Peter warned about in 2 Peter 3:16 KJB.

[1] The text ( 2 Corinthians 5:8 KJB) reads:

2 Corinthians 5:8 KJB - We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.​

Most people miss the meaning of the text and of the word "and" [Transliterated Koine Greek, "kai"] (addition "+", not is, nor equals "="), and mentally substitute a definition of 'is' or equals. This "and" delineates between two differing events, separated by many events and time, as seen in the texts cited above/previously, and is not an equality between "be[ing] absent from the body" and "to be present with the Lord".

A for instance, 2 + 3 = 5. Read another way, 2 (and) 3 (is) 5. Thus "and" and "is" are shown to not be synonymous, but different in purpose and meaning.

Absent from the decaying earthly body, and present with the Lord in the glorified body at the second Advent, by translation or resurrection. Paul is speaking of these two bodies.

To be present with the Lord, but when would that happen Paul?, right immediately at one's death, or at the second Advent of Jesus Christ, after the long rest (sleep) in the grave (bed)? See 1 Thessalonians 4:17 KJB

1 Thessalonians 4:17 KJB - Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

Combine also with John 14:1-4 KJB.

Compare specifically 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 KJB to Romans 8:19-23 KJB.

2 Corinthians 5:2 KJB - "For in this (decaying earthly body) we groan ..."

Romans 8:22 KJB - "... the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together ..."

Romans 8:23 KJB - "... even we ourselves groan within ourselves ..."
​

2 Corinthians 5:5 KJB - "... given unto us the earnest of the Spirit ..."

Romans 8:23 KJB - "... ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit ..."
​

2 Corinthians 5:2 KJB - "... earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven."

Romans 8:19,23 KJB - "... earnest expectation waiteth ... waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."​

We, as Paul (etc.), are looking to have this earthly decaying body "changed", from mortal, to immortality, with that glorious body from Heaven. In between, should we die (first death), and return to dust, Paul said that was "sleep", and "unclothed" and "naked" in the first death (not 2nd).

Notice Paul's statement about his expectation, his waiting, in 2 Corinthians 5:7 KJB. He states that he was awaiting the resurrection, to that glorious, was by faith, based upon Jesus own resurrection.

We are indeed a "house", even this body a "temple", which the Lord, by His Holy Spirit is to dwell in. Paul only mentions two such houses/temples, the one presently falling apart (like the tent of the wilderness), and the permanent structure from Heaven (like Solomon's Temple of Stone). There is no third house in that text.

Who of mankind can dwell in God's direct presence (see Him as He is; 1 John 3:2 KJB) without glorification, the glorified body, which we receive at the second Advent?

What is to be swallowed up of life? Let us remember death (not our friend) is the final enemy to be destroyed - 1 Corinthians 15:26 KJB.

Isaiah 26:19; Psalms 50:3-5; John 5:25,28 KJB​

2 Timothy 4:8 KJB - Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but into all them also that love his appearing.

1 Corinthians 15:23 KJB - But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.​

Paul, preached that in the first death, we return to dust and sleep, as all the scriptures (KJB) have already been cited. He preached the resurrection -

Acts 17:18, 23:6, 24:15,21; Romans 6:5; 1 Corinthians 15:12,13,21,42; Philippians 3:10,11; Hebrews 6:2, 11:35 KJB​

Roman Catholicism teaches as one of its core doctrines, immortal soul/spirit theology, and notice where they say it originates from, not the scriptures:

"... is the doctrine of spirituality. ... Dualism ... Plato ... Platonic Dualism ..." - Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia, "S', "Soul" - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Soul

"... For positive evidence, however, that the soul will continue after death in the possession of a conscious life, we must appeal to teleology and the consideration of the character of the universe as a whole. ..." - Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia, "I", "Immortality" - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Immortality​

Why do Baptists, who never used to be believe this, now second Roman Catholicism?

Even Rome knows that it cannot be found in the KJB, and are at least consistent enough to admit its pagan origins.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Most people miss the meaning of the text and of the word "and" [Transliterated Koine Greek, "kai"] (addition "+", not is, nor equals "="), and mentally substitute a definition of 'is' or equals. This "and" delineates between two differing events, separated by many events and time, as seen in the texts cited above/previously, and is not an equality between "be[ing] from the body" and "to be present with the Lord".

Perhaps you are not aware, but the KJV translates kai as 'even,' 92 times. Kai does not always mean 'additional to.' Sometimes it means 'That is' or 'the same as' or just 'even.'
Just so that you know.
For example: 'That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ' (Romans 15:6).
'.....And were by nature the children of wrath, even as others' (Ephesians 2:3).
'Do not even the publicans the same?' (Matthew 5:46).

 

[One Baptism]

Acts 7

59They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” 60Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.

Stephen said "RECIEVE MY SPIRIT".

Is he teaching spirit theology?

Did Jesus Christ receive Stephen's spirit?

Acts 7:59-60 KJB, proves again the OP, and all what I have stated in regards "spirit", from thence.

Notice:

Luke [who wrote Acts], clearly said that "Stephen", the person, died [first death], which Luke, just as Paul, etc, stated was "sleep" [Acts 7:60 KJB], and further in Acts, we see Luke continuing this:

Acts 8:1 KJB - And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Acts 8:2 KJB - And devout men carried Stephen [to his burial], and made great lamentation over him.

Acts 22:20 KJB - And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.
​

Please notice, that the texts specifically say that Stephen, the person, himself, died [first death], was slain, and he [Stephen] was buried, in the ground, there to await his resurrection.

Stephen, in that final prayer [just as Christ Jesus; and this the end of the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 KJB], breathed out his last breath, and fell [to the ground] asleep, was then taken up, lamented [not rejoiced] over, and buried [into the ground, to return to the dust, which he was made from].

The "spirit" in this instance is the last breathed out prayer of Stephen, for their forgiveness, and the committing himself wholly into the hands of God, who would "hide" him [Stephen] in the dust:

Job 40:13 KJB - Hide them in the dust together; [and] bind their faces in secret.

Job 14:14 KJB - If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Job 14:15 KJB - Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
​

Thus Stephen himself would be hidden in the earth, his 'mind/heart' committed unto God, for safe keeping in the mind/heart of God, who knoweth our hearts, and in that day of the resurrection, give the eternal body.

 

[One Baptism]

Perhaps you are not aware, but the KJV translates kai as 'even,' 92 times. Kai does not always mean 'additional to.' Sometimes it means 'That is' or 'the same as' or just 'even.'
Just so that you know.
For example: 'That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ' (Romans 15:6).
'.....And were by nature the children of wrath, even as others' (Ephesians 2:3).
'Do not even the publicans the same?' (Matthew 5:46).

Yes, brother, I am aware [and according to Blue Letter Bible, its "even (108x)", but no great matter], but please notice how the KJB equates the "kai" [when translated "even"] with "also" [meaning in addition to], in parallelism:

Matthew 18:33 KJB - Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?​

Thus defined line upon line, as Isaiah 28:10,13 say to do.

Moreso, the Koine Greek |kai| is translated as "and" "and (8,173x)" [Blue Letter Bible], and very minorly translated, in context, as a few other things, usually associated with meaning also, too, etc. Consider the percentage, even should and/or when, it means likewise, in like manner, comparison.

Finally, the plain common English of the KJB clearly reads "and" in 2 Corinthians 5:8 KJB, meaning additionally, and not "even" [meaning equal to].

Perhaps you would like to actually address the texts I cited and those evidences, instead of attempting this route of the "Greek game", which cannot help?

I will also recommend to you a small booklet, which may be of more assistance to you - https://manna.amazingfacts.org/amazingfacts/website/medialibrary/documents/pocketbooks/BK-AB.pdf

Back to the order of responses. Moving to Revelation 6, and 'under the altar the souls of them that were slain' and their 'rest yet for a little season until...'.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, brother, I am aware [and according to Blue Letter Bible, its "even (108x)", but no great matter], but please notice how the KJB equates the "kai" [when translated "even"] with "also" [meaning in addition to], in parallelism:

Matthew 18:33 KJB - Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?​

Thus defined line upon line, as Isaiah 28:10,13 say to do.

Moreso, the Koine Greek |kai| is translated as "and" "and (8,173x)" [Blue Letter Bible], and very minorly translated, in context, as a few other things, usually associated with meaning also, too, etc. Consider the percentage, even should and/or when, it means likewise, in like manner, comparison.

Finally, the plain common English of the KJB clearly reads "and" in 2 Corinthians 5:8 KJB, meaning additionally, and not "even" [meaning equal to].

Perhaps you would like to actually address the texts I cited and those evidences, instead of attempting this route of the "Greek game", which cannot help?

I will also recommend to you a small booklet, which may be of more assistance to you - https://manna.amazingfacts.org/amazingfacts/website/medialibrary/documents/pocketbooks/BK-AB.pdf

Back to the order of responses. Moving to Revelation 6, and 'under the altar the souls of them that were slain' and their 'rest yet for a little season until...'.

Your little book would not ne one from the false prophetess, would it?

 

[utilyan]

Acts 7:59-60 KJB, proves again the OP, and all what I have stated in regards "spirit", from thence.

Notice:

Luke [who wrote Acts], clearly said that "Stephen", the person, died [first death], which Luke, just as Paul, etc, stated was "sleep" [Acts 7:60 KJB], and further in Acts, we see Luke continuing this:

Acts 8:1 KJB - And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Acts 8:2 KJB - And devout men carried Stephen [to his burial], and made great lamentation over him.

Acts 22:20 KJB - And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.
​

Please notice, that the texts specifically say that Stephen, the person, himself, died [first death], was slain, and he [Stephen] was buried, in the ground, there to await his resurrection.

Stephen, in that final prayer [just as Christ Jesus; and this the end of the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 KJB], breathed out his last breath, and fell [to the ground] asleep, was then taken up, lamented [not rejoiced] over, and buried [into the ground, to return to the dust, which he was made from].

The "spirit" in this instance is the last breathed out prayer of Stephen, for their forgiveness, and the committing himself wholly into the hands of God, who would "hide" him [Stephen] in the dust:

Job 40:13 KJB - Hide them in the dust together; [and] bind their faces in secret.

Job 14:14 KJB - If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Job 14:15 KJB - Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
​

Thus Stephen himself would be hidden in the earth, his 'mind/heart' committed unto God, for safe keeping in the mind/heart of God, who knoweth our hearts, and in that day of the resurrection, give the eternal body.

I don't know your view and do not want to misrepresent.

Are you saying a Stephen Clone, correct? That is not actually Stephen.

The moment he died he broke like a computer, And God just has everything about Stephen downloaded.

But this Body with perfectly arranged memories ect, is just a Clone, am I right? let me know if its wrong.

 

[utilyan]

Here some troublesome verses you can probably fix up for me. There's a lot of implications running through.

For example Jesus Christ was risen in a glorified body. That is not the same Jesus on the cross is he? That is a clone formed from the memory of God?


Dead who are turned off basicly, they can't be impatient can they? I mean its just clap off then clap on right?


Revelations 6

9When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.




Revelations 20

4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.



Genesis 2
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

John 11

14Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

2 Corinthians 12
2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven. 3And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows— 4was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

 

[One Baptism]

I have not read the entire thread, so I'm not sure if this has already been presented. Scripture itself refutes this man-made doctrine of 'soul sleep'. In Revelation 6:9-10, John writes, "When he (Christ) opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, 'O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?'"

Here John sees the disembodied souls of early Christian martyrs. The fact they are disembodied is known because they have been slain. Thus disembodied souls exist. The fact they are conscious is known because they cry out to God for vengeance. Unconscious people can't do that. Thus conscious, disembodied souls exist.

Revelation 6, dealing with the first 6 seals, of the 7 seals.

The first 4 Seals deal with what has become commonly known as the 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse. Without attemping, in this thread and post, to identify specifically the symbols therein, as I do have another thread which specifically covers the structure of Daniel and Revelation, which is given in the shape of the 7 Branch Candlestick of the Sanctuary (Psalms 77:13 KJB).

Revelation 1:1 KJB tells us that it was given in symbols, "signified".

Are the first 4 seals given in symbols, or are we supposed to look for multi-colour horses, with riders, jumping from a scroll. Obviously, symbols, even pointing to the Gospel going forward in power (White horse and rider), see Revelation 19:11,14; Psalms 45:3-5; Exodus 15:3; Isaiah 42:13, etc. I have a whole study/sermon on this, and the "bow". Powerful stuff, heart stirring, quaking, shuddering and trembling with awesome and Godly fear. The first 4 seals point us from the time of AD 31 on into the years of church apostasy, declension, darkness and death (dark ages, when Papal Rome crushed underfoot truth, light and lives).

The 5th Seal is a transitional seal, recounting both the past martyrs (of the earlier seals), "... souls of them that were slain ...", and covers up to the future time of the soon to come end-time martyrs of the remnant, "... until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.". See Revelation 6:9 and Revelation 20:4 (a) KJB

"slain for":

A1 - the word of God
B1 - the testimony [G3141] which they held

"beheaded for"

B2 - the witness ['testimony' G3141] of Jesus
A2 - the word of God

The question in regards these "souls" "under the altar", we have to understand what "altar", what its location and function was, and what thus antitype is, in relation to the type.

This "altar" was not in Heaven. It was the "altar" of the Courtyard (Sanctuary, Psalms 77:13 KJB), which represented the place upon the earth, where Jesus was Crucified - see Exodus 40:28 KJB. It is known as the brazen altar, the altar of burnt offering, the altar of slaughter, where the "blood" was poured out at its base onto the earth. See Leviticus 4:18,30,34, 5:8, 8:15, 9:9 KJB.

The symbols are pointing to earth and events there.

Crying Out deals symbolically with the shed blood, crying out from the ground, see Genesis 4:10; Hebrews 12:24; Matthew 23:35; Luke 11:51 KJB.

Crying out does not necessarily mean "alive", see Habakkuk 2:11; Luke 19:49 KJB

Even flesh can cry out, Psalms 84:2 KJB

These who were "slain" are dead (1st), even in the earth, and are to "rest" (sleep there) until all the martyrs until the end are slain. They shed their blood in which is life, see Genesis 9:4; Leviticus 17:11,14; Deuteronomy 12:23, all symbolically crying out for justice from the earth, as Abel's blood from the beginning.

Please notice that word "rest":

See Deuteronomy 31:16; 2 Samuel 7:12; Job 3:13, 7:21, 14:12; 1 Kings 1:21, 2:10, 11:21,43, 14:20,31, 15:8,24, 16:6,28, 22:40,50; 2 Kings 8:24, 10:35, 13:9,13, 14:16,22,29, 15:7,22,38, 16:20, 20:21, 21:18, 24:6; 2 Chronicles 9:31, 12:16, 14:1, 16:13, 21:1, 26:2,23, 27:9, 28:27, 32:33, 33:20; Job 14:12; Psalms 13:3; Matthew 27:52; John 11:11-13; Acts 7:60, 13:36; 1 Corinthians 15:6,18,20,51; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15; 2 Peter 3:4; Psalms 17:15; Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2; Job 17:13; Psalms 139:8; Luke 17:34; John 6:49,58, 8:52,53; Acts 2:28,34; Hebrews 11:4,13,16,40 KJB

They do not yet have crowns, which are not given until their awakening from their "rest" in the sleep of the first death, and resurrection, see Job 17:13, 14:14 KJB.

God does not avenge them until the 7 last plagues, in the "blood" to drink.

After this, God will resurrect them all together from their sleep in the dust, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 KJB, and take us all to Heaven at the same glorious time.

 

[One Baptism]

Your little book would not be one from the ... prophetess, would it?

The online pocketbook (Absent From The Body), and study therein is strictly from the NT texts on the subject.

You may also consider these sources as well:

Immortality: Conditional or Innate?

The Soul and Spirit: Greek and Hebrew Word Studies

What Happens When You Die? | Truth About Death

Martin Luther and William Tyndale on the State of the Dead.

Is Hell Real? | Hell Truth

Ghosts: Who Are They? | Ghost Truth

Where Do People Go When They Die?

Will You Be Left Behind? | Rapture Truth

Http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/annihilationism

Http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/conditional_immortality

Http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/soul_death

Http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/soul_sleep

Http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/immortality_of_the_soul#modern_scholarship

Http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/soul_in_the_Bible
See "Nephesh"

I pray that these are helpful and beneficial to you and all, and answered the basic inquiry.

 

[One Baptism]

Also, there are souls before throne of God in heaven in revelation, were they not there?

This has now been answered here - Immortal Soul/Spirit Theology, Part Of The False Gospel, Practicers Of Necromancy

Thank you for the question, but it has a built in incorrect apriori, regarding location, please see the link and the answer therein.