It is pretty obvious that the altar in Revelation 6:9 must be the same as the altar in Revelation 8:3 which is 'before the throne.' We are told that the altar of incense in the tabernacle was a copy of the one in heaven (Exodus 30:1-10; Hebrews 8:5; compare with Revelation 9:13; 11:1; 14:18; 16:7).
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Immortal Soul/Spirit Theology, Part Of The False Gospel, Practicers Of Necromancy
- Thread starter One Baptism
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One Baptism
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Indeed, the Sanctuary on earth was the copy, the type, of the True Sanctuary. The anti typical Courtyard of the True Sanctuary, is the earth itself, where Christ Jesus, the True Sacrifice, was "slain" ("had been slain", past tense see Revelation 5:6 KJB, which led to Pentecost, pouring out of the Holy Spirit, see also Psalms 133:1-3; Acts 1-2 KJB, etc.). Hence, the altar of slaughter, the brazen (brass) altar, the altar of sacrifice, offering.
If you will please look again at the Scriptural [KJB] references in the previous post on this, you will see I demonstrated that the "altar" in Revelation 6, the fifth seal, cannot be the "golden altar" of "incense" as found in the Holy Place of the True Sanctuary, which is "before the throne of God", as found in Revelation 8:3,5 KJB.
Revelation 6, the fifth seal uses none of the language of "golden", "incense", "censor", "prayers", "trumpets", "smoke", "fire", etc, (see Lukw 1:11 KJB, etc) but instead continually uses words like "slain", "blood" which "cried with a loud voice" , "earth", "under" (which is where the blood of sacrifices was poured out in the typical, thus so too the anti typical), "testimony" (martyrdom, as Jesus), "rest", "killed", and in part refers back to those slain under the first four seals.
See also Matthew 23:35; Luke 11:51, 1 Corinthians 9:13, 10:18; James 2:21 (Mt. Moriah) KJB.
Thank you, for demonstrating that there is indeed a true Sanctuary, of which there is the Ark in the Most Holy Place in Heaven (Revelation 11:19, 15:5 KJB). What do you think is in there? The Original Ten Commandments, eternal in the Heavens.
Also, presently you do not seem to understand the structure of Revelation, nor the time differences between Revelation 6, the fifth seal, and Revelation 8:2, and the beginning of the Trumpets. Please see the Daniel and Revelation thread for that structure. Additionally Revelation 8:2-5 KJB, cover from AD 31 to the close of probation (soon to come), the finishing of the mystery (Gospel) of God.
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One Baptism
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Council of Trent (Jesuits), right?
One Baptism
Active Member
If you hold to immortal soul spirit theology, how did your "old man" of sin (1 John 3:4 KJB) die?
According to 1 Corinthians 15:46 KJB, the natural and spiritual are intimately connected, the natural even giving understanding to the spiritual.
If your "old man" of sin is dead, even crucified with Christ Jesus, buried in baptism (Romans 6, etc. KJB), then in the "strength" (Revelation 12:10; Romans 5:6; 1 Corinthians 1:24 KJB) He has provided, and by/through the Holy Spirit, you teach that we can, in this fallen flesh, "keep the commandments" (Revelation 12:16, 14:12; 1 John 5:2,3; Matthew 19:17; Daniel 9:4; John 14:15; Exodus 20:6; Ecclesiastes 12:13-14; Proverbs 7:2; Psalms 119 (all); Psalms 78:7; 1 Chronicles 29:19; ... Exodus 20:1-17; etc.), even perfectly, and overcome all temptation and sin (1 John 3:4 KJB), "even as" Christ Jesus overcame (Revelation 3:21 KJB), thus living without any sin whatsoever, even unto death, the death of that Cross?
Sin is the transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4; Romans 7:7 KJB), which includes violation of the 7th day, the holy Sabbath of the Lord (Jesus), as found in the eternal, holy, spiritual and good Law as found in the New Covenant (Isaiah 56:1-8; John 10:16 KJB).
If not, the "old man" didn't die, but still lives, which is what immortal soul/spiritists practice (some ignorantly), being transgression of God's clearly revealed "will" (Psalms 40:8 KJB), as found in His Ark/Heart.
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One Baptism
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So you are saying that your "old man" of sin died? OK, do all the sinners (finally impenitent) who refuse Christ, and die in the 2nd death, never to be seen again?, or will they somehow continue on into eternity, writhing, and blaspheming because they are an immortal soul/spirit?
Do you teach that we, as Christians, who are to abide in Christ, lest we be reprobate, a castaway, a branch severed to be burned, to keep the 7th day the Sabbath of the Lord (Jesus) holy, since Jesus asked us to in response to His Love (John 14:15; Exodus 20:6 KJB)? And if so, can we live, by the same "strength" given until us, without sin in this fallen flesh, "even as" Christ Jesus did, being not merely our substitute, but example (1 Peter 2:21 KJB)?
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One Baptism
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Revelation 20 KJB, where (locationally) are all of the wicked (finally impenitent) raised (from their sleep in the dust, first death)?Is the member who started the OP advocating annihilation? That the soul of the lost just burns up and is no more? His posts are so jumbled I can't make heads or tails of what he trying to espouse.
ETA: NVM, I saw his last post. He is advocating annihilation.
Where (locationally), is the lake of fire in Revelation 20 KJB?
One Baptism
Active Member
Agreed. Those who die (1st death) in Christ, shall never die (2nd death), they "sleep" (like Lazarus, Jairus' daughter, little boy, etc), in the dust of the earth, the grave, etc, and will be resurrected (1st great Res.) soon, and be changed in a moment, going from mortality to immortality, having a life that measures with the life of God.
The wicked (finally impenitent) who die (first death), too because of Christ, "sleep" in the grave, and will also be resurrected, in the (2nd great) resurrection (of damnation), and receive the execution of Judgement, and be cast into the lake of fire upon the old cursed earth, and die the 2nd (everlasting) death, from which there is no life after, nor resurrection, nor any further opportunities, but be gone, burned up into smoke and ashes, root and branch, and never be any more, for no place was found for them, cut off (of life) forever.
One Baptism
Active Member
The evidence of this very thread, from the beginning of the OP, even until now shows contrary.
The Bible is the final authority in all matters of faith and practice.
Did you know that sister White said, taught and lived that very thing?
If you would like to discuss sister White as a messenger of the Lord, and/or prophetess, I can create another thread for that later, and we can look at the specific details that you are thinking of when you say or assert what you do. This is not that thread, unless you would like to quote what she taught in regards the state of the dead. I would recommend reading the Great Controversy sections on that subject first.
One Baptism
Active Member
Not so,
James 3:9 KJB - "... men, which are made after the similitude of God."
See also:
Numbers 12:8, "... the similitude of the LORD shall he behold ..."
Mankind was made in the "image" and "likeness" of God (Genesis 1:27, 9:6; 2 Corinthians 4:4 KJB, etc.)
Jesus is "the express image of his [The Father's] person" (Hebrews 1:3 KJB)
Jesus was "being in the form of God" (Philippians 2:6 KJB).
The Father's "face" (Matthew 18:10 KJB).
Daniel 7:9 KJB - "I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of Days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire."
The Father is also seen in Revelation 4 & 5, with description, "hand", throne, voice, etc.
Jesus was the person who took upon himself the flesh of mankind, true, for neither the person of the Father, nor the person of the Holy Spirit did this. However, the person of the Father has "form", "similitude", "likeness", a "body" with "parts".
Jesus, even before taking upon himself human flesh nature ("form of a servant), had "form" ("form of God"), see Philippians 2 KJB.
Exodus 33:23 KJB - "... mine hand ... see my back parts ... my face ... seen."
Exodus 24:10 KJB - "... saw the God of Israel ... under his feet ..."
Exodus 24:11 KJB - "... his hand ... they saw God, and did eat and drink."
See also 1 Corinthians 15:49 KJB, etc, Job 19:26; Genesis 17, 18 & 19
See John 17:5, 20:27 KJB & and all the descriptions of Jesus throughout the OT and NT and in his glorified and resurrected form, then compare to Matthew 22:30; Mark 12:25; Luke 20:35-36, etc.
Yes, God is "a spirit" (a living mind), and the angels are "ministering spirits", but they are not wispy airy non-things. See 1 Corinthians 15:39, for all "flesh is notthe same flesh"; and there is terrestrial (earthly) and celestial (heavenly) "bodies". A "spiritual body" is not a "spirit body", for that would be contradiction (Luke 24:38 KJB). A "spiritual body" is a physical body controlled, ruled, by the Spirit, rather than a carnal body, ruled by the flesh.
See the study on Angels, their form, etc in the Michael Archangel thread.
The time of sacrifices came to an end when Christ died on the cross, there fore the altar throughout Revelation is the altar of incense. From there the prayers of the saints ascend to God.
But the main point is that the souls of these saints are alive and able to petition God (Ecclesiastes 12:7; Matthew 10:28).
Missing the point as usual.
1. God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Mark 12:26).
2. He is not God of the dead but God of the living (Mark 12:27).
3. Therefore Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are living, though they are dead, which takes us around to John 11:25-26.
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As are all Christians who remain alive in Christ even though their bodies are no longer living. Nothing can separate us from Christ.
I quoted Romans 6:6-7 to you.
that's not what the text says.
How can you say 'if'? We are told in God's word that he is dead. Deal with it.
God's word does not teach sinless perfection. I don't know how many time I have to quote 1 John 1:8-10 to you.
We are told that 'the flesh lusts against the Spirit and the Spirit lusts against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish' (Galatians 5:17). The life of the believer is a constant battle against sin and temptation, with defeats as well as victories (cf. Galatians 6:1-2). Romans 6:12-13 teaches that a relic of sin still remains, not in us (who are new creatures in Christ Jesus), but in our mortal bodies, and this is what we have to battle against, being sure of victory (Romans 6:14) because when we die, we shall leave that relic of sin behind us with our mortal bodies and be with the Lord forever.
The Lord Jesus Christ is Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28).
At the start of His ministry, it was His custom to go to the synagogue on the Sabbath Day (Luke 4:16).
However, it is evident that the first churches did not follow that practice (Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 16:2). Instead of commemorating the creation of the world, we now commemorate another finished work (John 19:30), the work of redemption and the New Creation in Christ Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:17).
One Baptism
Active Member
No, brother, of course not [Exodus 20:16, John 15:10; 1 Peter 2:22 KJB, etc.], and neither I, nor yourself would say, teach or believe that he ever lied.
It is not a matter of disbelieving the statements of Jesus either, since you and I both wholeheartedly believe what Jesus said in that single sentence in Luke, in regards the penitent thief.
The difference between us, is in the surrounding context and the other Gospels context of John & the teaching of Jesus on several doctrines - the state of the dead, heaven, hell, the second Advent, the resurrection of the just, & the punctuation. This is where the difference between us is generally coming from.
I can see your user name incorporates that godly reformationist and martyr brother Tyndale. Do you know what he taught, based upon scripture study?
1530 AD, responding to Sir Thomas More's objection to his (Tyndale's) belief that "all souls lie and sleep till doomsday", he (Tyndale) vigorously replyed:
"... And ye, in putting them [the departed souls] in heaven, hell and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurrection. ... And again, if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good a case as the angels be? And then what cause is there of the resurrection? ..." - William Tyndale, An Answer to Sir Thomas More's Dialogue (Parker's 1850 Reprint), BK. 4, CH. 4, page 180-181 - An Answer to Sir Thomas More's Dialogue
"... The true faith putteth forth the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put that the souls did ever live [ie. immortal]. And the pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshy doctrine of philosophers together; things so contrary that they cannot agree, no more than the Spirit and the flesh do in a Christian man. And because the fleshy-minded pope cinsenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the Scripture to stablish it. If the soul be in heaven, tell me what cause is there for the resurrection. ..." - page 180
"... And when he [Thomas] proveth that the saints be in heaven in glory with Christ already, saying, 'If God be their God, they be in heaven, for he is not the God of the dead;' there he stealeth away Christ's argument wherewith he proveth the resurrection: that Abraham and all saints would rise again, and not that their souls were in heaven; which doctrine was not yet in the world. And with that doctrine he taketh away the resurrection quite, and maketh Christ's argument of none effect. ..." - page 118
"... 'Nay Paul, thou art unlearned; Go to Master More, and learn a new way. We be not most miserable, though we rise not again; for our souls go to heaven as soon as we be dead, and are there in as great joy as Christ that is risen again.'. And I marvel that Paul had not comforted the Thessalonians with the doctrine, if he had wist [known] it, that the souls of their dead had been in joy; as he did with the resurrection, that their dead should rise again. If the souls be in heaven, in as great glory as the angels, after your doctrine, shew me what should be of the resurrection? ..." - page 118
John Frith, William Tyndale's good partner and brother in Christ and martyr, said:
"... Notwithstanding, let me grant it him that some are already in hell and some in heaven, which thing he shall never be able to prove by the Scriptures, yea, and which plainly destroy the resurrection, and taketh away the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul do prove that we shall rise; ... and as touching this point where they rest, I dare be bold to say that they are in the hand of God." - An Answer to John Fisher, Bishop of Rochester.
They say, yea Jesus, yea Paul, yea Tyndale, yea John Frith, yea Luther if we were alive in your day we would stand in the flames of affliction with you and stand without flinching holding forth the same mind and doctrine into the death, and yet today though they build large the tombs and monuments of the reformers and Christ Jesus, they verily crucify them all denying their explicit doctrine, and stone those sent unto them in love to bring them back to the Way, and to come out of the great whores thinking.
I am not here elder brother Glen, except to bring that doctrine which is of Heaven, and has been since the beginning, and carried forth from thence until today, even as the reformation held forth against Romanisms spiritism.
... to be continued ...
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One Baptism
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Yes brother, it does have the name "Baptist Board" outwardly, but it's heart is a strange mixture of Roman Catholicism and 'Sola Scriptura' (attempting to defend Romanized doctrine by Sola, The Jesuits are laughing at you...). Remember, I was Roman Catholic for 30 years, and this forum absolutely advocates her doctrines in one form or another, and this matter of the state of the dead, is just one of them undermining the faith once delivered to the saints.
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One Baptism
Active Member
Yes, elder brother Glen, Jesus did say "... To day ..." to the penitent thief.
Jesus was telling the penitent thief in the (present) moment, verily "... To day ...", that he (the penitent thief) shall be (future tense) with Jesus in Paradise (3rd Heaven), when Jesus would "comest" into His glorious kingdom.
Thus Jesus was telling the penitent thief that day (because of his faith, "Lord") that in the future kingdom of glory, the thief would be resurrected and be taken back to Paradise, and "ever be with the Lord".
You value your KJB as I value my KJV... And as much as you would like to you can't change To Day to mean some other day... Jesus was telling the thief in the present, that he would be with Jesus in the present... It says and means exactly what it says... Got to go now... Later... Brother Glen
One Baptism
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Reminiscent of Luke 13:31-33 KJB. Brother I have no intention of extricating myself, nor fleeing. The character of God and His Truth, doctrine and law are at stake as also the souls of men. My commission is of the highest command and purpose, yes, even Love compels me to remain and continue sharing and praying for you and all so long as that commission is valid.
One Baptism
Active Member
If you believe you will, immediately upon death, enter heaven, why would Jesus come back to earth? Body? What need have you of it (or Jesus for that matter) if you were already expericing the joys of 'heaven', even Jesus, in a so-called 'spirit-body'? The same goes for the lost, experiencing the pains of hellfire in 'hell' and the separation from Christ?
You do not see any contradiction in this, at all?
One Baptism
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Neither. Believe God's Word (Luke 8:12; 2 Timothy 3:15-17 KJB)
Would you believe if I showed you the Apostle Peter (in the NT), with the other Apostles, filled with the Holy Spirit quoting the OT and giving an example therein of another godly person who died and what happened?
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