Imputed Righteousness of Christ

[mman]

Our righteousness is based on our Repentance and Believing what God did thru His Son Jesus. Though Jesus is the King of Righteousness, our faith, our believing is absolutely necessary for the Righteousness.

When Abraham became Righteous, it was because he believed in God. So, the believing is the most important factor for the Righteousness.

No time to really respond, but I will ask, when was that fulfilled concerning Abraham? We don't have to wonder, we are told, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"—and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. - James 2:21-24

Yes, that was said of Abraham when he believed, but it was fulfilled when he was obedient.

 

[Eliyahu]

No time to really respond, but I will ask, when was that fulfilled concerning Abraham? We don't have to wonder, we are told, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"—and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. - James 2:21-24

Yes, that was said of Abraham when he believed, but it was fulfilled when he was obedient.

So, always Believing was imputed for the Righteousness.

When I said " the sins of Hitler was imputed to Jesus but the righteousness of Jesus was not imputed to Hitler", it pointed out that Imputation of Sins doesn't bring the Imputation of Righteousness automatically.

Righteousness is always based on our Believing, Faith, Obedience.

It is not automatically imputed from Jesus, but needs our reaction.

What James said was the true believing includes the action by obedience.

 

[David Lamb]

The sins of Hitler were imputed to Jesus Christ.

In that case, we have the notion of a perfectly just God punishing the same sins twice: Once in Jesus Christ on the cross, and once in Adolf himself in hell.

You may say, "Ah! But Hitler didn't believe." Is unbelief not a sin?

Augustus Toplady wrote a hymn From Whence this Fear and Unbelief? that states the matter like this in two of its verses:

Complete atonement Thou hast made,
And to the utmost farthing paid
Whate'er Thy people owed:
Nor can His wrath on me take place,
If sheltered in Thy righteousness,
And sprinkled with Thy blood.

If Thou hast my discharge procured,
And freely in my room endured
The whole of wrath divine:
Payment God cannot twice demand,
First at my wounded Surety's hand,
And then again at mine. ​

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Brother David Lamb: In that case, we have the notion of a perfectly just God punishing the same sins twice: Once in Jesus Christ on the cross, and once in Adolf himself in hell.

You may say, "Ah! But Hitler didn't believe." Is unbelief not a sin?

Augustus Toplady wrote a hymn From Whence this Fear and Unbelief? that states the matter like this in two of its verses:
Complete atonement Thou hast made,
And to the utmost farthing paid
Whate'er Thy people owed:
Nor can His wrath on me take place,
If sheltered in Thy righteousness,
And sprinkled with Thy blood.

If Thou hast my discharge procured,
And freely in my room endured
The whole of wrath divine:
Payment God cannot twice demand,
First at my wounded Surety's hand,
And then again at mine

HP: The problem with this hymn is that it starts from a false idea of what was accomplished at Calvary. It starts from the presupposition that a literal payment for sins was made at the cross. That simply is not nor can it be the case without landing in the trap of deterministic fatalism, and being at direct antipodes with Scripture that emphatically states that Christ died not only for our sins, but the sins of the entire world. He is not only the propitiation for our sins but for the whole world according to Scripture. The idea of a literal payment for sin, known as the literal payment theory, is simply not founded upon the Word of God, but rather is the product of mere men such as Augustine, Luther and Calvin that have designed and foisted such a theory upon the Church.

What was accomplished on the cross was an atonement for sins, that satisfied the demands of the law before the Holy Architect of the Law and its corresponding penalties, which was sufficient for every sin ever committed. It allowed God, under certain conditions, to treat the sinner as if though he had never sinned, but in an of itself does not literally pay for any sin. The atonement built a bridge for the forgiveness of sins, but we must fulfill the conditions of repentance, faith, and obedience to the end in order to actually find that we indeed personally do have an Advocate at the final judgement. We can by faith alone, in this present world, believe that if we fulfil the commands and conditions of God, that we indeed do and will have an Advocate. Here and now we receive the earnest of our hope, and that again by faith.

One of the best books I have read on the Atonement is a book by Albert Barnes entitled “The Atonement.” It can be found and read online the last time I checked. It is a must read IHHO.

 

[Eliyahu]

There is nothing wrong with the Song by Toplady.

What David Lamb was confused with is the meaning of all sins.

Jesus said this:

Mt 12
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.


Isn't the Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit included in " ALL" manner of Sin?

Was Jesus wrong then?

Why is there the discrepancy between ALL manner of sin and the Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?

When Jesus said " It is finished" at the Cross, All sins were forgiven. Then why should so many people go to the Hell if Jesus has become the propitiation for the world, not only for the believers?

When God has forgiven all the sins of the world, but if many people scoff at such truth and reject it, then should the forgiveness still be effective despite their rejection ?

Now, when I said, " all the sins of Hitler were imputed to Jesus", does it mean that even the unbelief and rejection of the Gospel was forgiven ?

Do you think that God is contradictory as He send the unbelievers to the Hell since He forgave all the sins of the world?

Such question arose when someone doesn't know how to distinguish between All manner of Sin and the sin against the Holy Spirit.

This is why the Belief(Believing) is so important when one is accepted as Righteous by God.

Sin of Unbelieving is denying and rejecting the Forgiveness itself, which finds no way for the solution !

Even though so much grace has been offered to anyone, if she or he reject and kick it out, what could God do for such person?

If God send such person to the Hell, does it betray the Mercy of God?

 

[Eliyahu]

HP: The problem with this hymn is that it starts from a false idea of what was accomplished at Calvary. It starts from the presupposition that a literal payment for sins was made at the cross. That simply is not nor can it be the case without landing in the trap of deterministic fatalism, and being at direct antipodes with Scripture that emphatically states that Christ died not only for our sins, but the sins of the entire world. He is not only the propitiation for our sins but for the whole world according to Scripture. The idea of a literal payment for sin, known as the literal payment theory, is simply not founded upon the Word of God, but rather is the product of mere men such as Augustine, Luther and Calvin that have designed and foisted such a theory upon the Church.

What was accomplished on the cross was an atonement for sins, that satisfied the demands of the law before the Holy Architect of the Law and its corresponding penalties, which was sufficient for every sin ever committed. It allowed God, under certain conditions, to treat the sinner as if though he had never sinned, but in an of itself does not literally pay for any sin. The atonement built a bridge for the forgiveness of sins, but we must fulfill the conditions of repentance, faith, and obedience to the end in order to actually find that we indeed personally do have an Advocate at the final judgement. We can by faith alone, in this present world, believe that if we fulfil the commands and conditions of God, that we indeed do and will have an Advocate. Here and now we receive the earnest of our hope, and that again by faith.

One of the best books I have read on the Atonement is a book by Albert Barnes entitled “The Atonement.” It can be found and read online the last time I checked. It is a must read IHHO.

Very good explanation :thumbs:

We don't need those guys like Augustine, Calvin, Luther since they had problems with Catholicism, Baptismal Regeneration, Mary Worship, Anti-semitism, killing people.

For the true repentance, we need the guidance by the Holy Spirit, and the True Repentance is intensified after the Salvation.
When we are born again, we turn from our sins, then repent to return to the Lord, then we are born again. So, the Repentance precedes the Salvation. However, it continues even after the Salvation, and it gets much more intensified and become more accurate.

This is why I read Lev 11 applying to the Repentance as well.
Lev 11 tells us the clean animals with cloven hoof chewing the cud.
We must chew the Words of God for our daily lives, then practice them with the cloven hoof, working hard. But we must keep in mind that the Words of God continue to convict us so that we may repent about our sins. All the Repentance involves the Holy Spirit even before the Salvation or after the Salvation. HS assists us in repenting. We have to repeat the meditation on the words of God, then repeat the repentance, then practice them in the life.

 

[David Lamb]

HP: The idea of a literal payment for sin, known as the literal payment theory, is simply not founded upon the Word of God, but rather is the product of mere men such as Augustine, Luther and Calvin that have designed and foisted such a theory upon the Church.

I respect your opinions, HP, but I believe you are wrong on this point. Augustine, Luther, Calvin, and the many others who have believed what you call the "literal payment theory" (that term is new to me), believed it because that is what they understood the bible to teach. They didn't sit down one day and think to themselves, "We need something new in our Christianity. Let's invent a new doctrine, that says that Jesus Christ actually paid for His people's sins." In the various confessions of faith that hold to the idea of Christ actually paying for the sins of His people, scriptural references are given. Just a few examples:

Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter VIII Section V

V. The Lord Jesus, by his perfect obedience, and sacrifice of himself, which he, through the eternal Spirit, once offered up unto God, hath fully satisfied the justice of his Father;[34] and purchased, not only reconciliation, but an everlasting inheritance in the kingdom of heaven, for all those whom the Father hath given unto him.[35]

34. Rom. 3:25-26; 5:19; Heb. 9:14; 10:14; Eph. 5:2
35. Dan. 9:24; II Cor. 5:18; Col. 1:20; Eph. 1:11, 14; Heb. 9:12, 15; John 17:2​

The London Confession of Baptist Faith, Chapter VIII, Sections IV to VI

IV. This office the Lord Jesus did most willingly undertake,[21] which that He might discharge He was made under the law,[22] and did perfectly fulfil it, and underwent the punishment due to us, which we should have borne and suffered,[23] being made sin and a curse for us;[24]enduring most grievous sorrows in His soul, and most painful sufferings in His body;[25] was crucified, and died, and remaining in the state of the dead, yet saw no corruption:[26] and on the third day He arose from the dead [27] with the same body in which he suffered,[28] with which He also ascended into heaven,[29] and there sitteth at the right hand of His Father making intercession,[30] and shall return to judge men and angels at the end of the world.[31]

21. Psa. 40:7-8; Heb. 10:5-10; John 10:18
22. Gal. 4:4; Matt. 3:15
23. Gal. 3:13; Isa. 53:6; I Peter 3:18
24. II Cor. 5:21
25. Matt. 26:37-38; Luke 22:44; Matt. 27:46
26. Acts 13:37
27. I Cor. 15:3-4
28. John 20:25, 27
29. Mark 16:19; Acts 1:9-11
30. Rom. 8:34; Heb. 9:24
31. Acts 10:42; Rom. 14:9-10; Acts 1:11; II Peter 2:4

V. The Lord Jesus, by His perfect obedience and sacrifice of Himself, which He through the eternal Spirit once offered up unto God, hath fully satisfied the justice of God,[32] procured reconciliation, and purchased an everlasting inheritance in the kingdom of heaven for all those whom the Father hath given unto Him.[33]

32. Heb. 9:14; 10:14; Rom. 3:25-26
33. John 17:2; Heb. 9:15

VI. Although the price of redemption was not actually paid by Christ till after His incarnation, yet the virtue, efficacy, and benefit thereof were communicated to the elect in all ages successively from the beginning of the world, in and by those promises, types, and sacrifices wherein He was revealed, and signified to be the seed which should bruise the serpent's head;[34] and the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world,[35] being the same yesterday, and to-day, and for ever.[36]

34. I Cor. 4:10; Heb. 4:2; I Peter 1:10-11
35. Rev. 13:8
36. Heb. 13:8​

The 1966 Grace Baptist Affirmation of Faith:

Justification​

Those whom God effectually calls, he also freely justifies by pardoning their sins and by accounting and accepting them as righteous. This he does, not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone; not by imputing faith itself but by imputing Christ's active obedience in his life unto the whole law, and passive obedience in his death for their complete and only righteousness.
Faith, receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the sole instrument of justification.
Rom. 3:24; 8:30; 4:5-8; Eph. 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:30-31; Rom. 5: 17-19; Phil. 3:8-9; Eph. 2:8-10; Rom. 3:28.


Christ by his obedience and death has fully discharged the debt of all who are justified; and did by the sacrifice of himself-undergoing in their stead the penalty due to them-make a proper, real and full satisfaction to God's justice on their behalf.
Believers, being justified, have a standing in Christ which cannot alter, yet they may, by their sins, fall under God's fatherly displeasure and so mar their state, losing the light of his countenance until sin is confessed and pardon assured through the continuing forgiveness of God.
Heb. 10:14; 1 Pet. 1:18-19; Isa. 53:5-6; Rom. 3:24-26; 1 John 4:10; John 10:28: Psa. 89:31-33; 32:5; 51; Mat. 26:75; 6:12; 1 John 1 :7-9.​

So you may disagree with their (and my) interpretation of Scripture, but to go beyond that, and say that they invented the doctrines you disagree with, just isn't right. (To avoid any misunderstanding, I should say that I know you did not use the word "invented", but that is how I interpret your words, "the product of mere men." If I am wrong in that interpretation, I apologise).

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Eliyahu: So, the Repentance precedes the Salvation. However, it continues even after the Salvation, and it gets much more intensified and become more accurate.

HP: I believe you bring up a pertinent point here. Subsequent to salvation, upon receiving more light, repentance is employed many times in our walk with the Lord. Every time we see ourselves with new light from the Holy Spirit shed abroad in our hearts, we see ourselves as in need of His forgiveness and grace afresh and new. Things we might not ever have been convicted about, we now find as repulsive to us and in need of turning from such behavior, attitudes, etc.

Still the same, I do not believe that if we walk in the light as He is in the light that the problems persist on the same level as in our past. I believe that one can walk in such a way, being purified by faith to the degree that one can live and walk in a sanctified state, a state where sin would be the totally abnormal thing in ones life and a life of consistent obedience can be experienced. It should be the honest desire of every Christian to find and walk in such a sanctified state in this present world with the help proffered by God to sustain such a walk of obedience and holiness.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Brother David Lamb:I believe you are wrong on this point.

HP: What we need to do is to, for the moment, set aside all the past Confessions of the Church, and the doctrines clearly developed by men, and allow Scripture and reason to guide our discussions. It is fine to point out a Scripture or Scriptures that you feel are pertinent to the discussion and have been used in certain confessions, but our task should be to examine these verses and see if in fact they say what these confessions are saying they do. To facilitate our discussion, take one or two of the passages you feel say that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to the believer for all past present and future sins, or passages that would set forth the notion of a literal payment for sins as these confessions propose. We have to limit our responses to a very limited number of passages if we are going to really look at the issues fairly and keep our focus clear in short and concise posts that will not loose the attention of the reader. Which passages, of the many you cited, would you like to address first?

Establish your position from Scripture or other revealed soures of enlightement that we can agree on as directly ascertained by the enlightenmnet of God such as nature, conscience, first truths of reason etc.

 

[Eliyahu]

HP: I believe you bring up a pertinent point here. Subsequent to salvation, upon receiving more light, repentance is employed many times in our walk with the Lord. Every time we see ourselves with new light from the Holy Spirit shed abroad in our hearts, we see ourselves as in need of His forgiveness and grace afresh and new. Things we might not ever have been convicted about, we now find as repulsive to us and in need of turning from such behavior, attitudes, etc.

Still the same, I do not believe that if we walk in the light as He is in the light that the problems persist on the same level as in our past. I believe that one can walk in such a way, being purified by faith to the degree that one can live and walk in a sanctified state, a state where sin would be the totally abnormal thing in ones life and a life of consistent obedience can be experienced. It should be the honest desire of every Christian to find and walk in such a sanctified state in this present world with the help proffered by God to sustain such a walk of obedience and holiness.

The notion that the Repentance continues even after the Salvation relates to 1 John 1:9 as well which tells us that if anyone confess the sin, He will forgive him/her and cleanse him/her from all the unrighteousness.

Remember this.
Even after the Salvation thru Repentance, when we repeat the Repentance, we confess our sins, then we get the forgiveness. Based on what ?
There is no remission of sin without the shedding of Blood. (Heb 9:22).

The Blood which we can show to God whenever we commit sins even after the salvation was shed at the Cross. God reminds us of that Blood when He forgive us for the newly committed sins.

From my experience all the time when I repented even after the Salvation, the forgiveness came from God as He showed me the Cross again, which means that even the sins which I was bothering with were already included in the forgiveness at the Cross.

Therefore the repentance continues after the Salvation, and the solution for that is only the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ at the Cross which was done already 2000 years ago.

Throughout the history the Cross has been the Center of it, from Eternity to Eternity, and Jesus Christ is the only solution for all the problems of the world.

 

[savedbymercy]

Imputed Righteousness and Imparted Righteousness

.Imputed Righteousness before God is premised on the finished work of Christ, His Righteousness has been laid to the charge or account to all whom He died of which their sins were laid to His charge or account. This is what 2 Cor 5:21 is alluding to. It reads:

21For he[God the Father] hath made him[Jesus Christ] to be sin for us [by imputation], who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him[by imputation].

This is purely a legal and objective matter ! Now with this settled in the Eternal Counsels of the Trinity, this establishes the foundation for imparted righteousness [New Birth]. Righteousness is imparted by the New Birth, this occurs when The Holy Spirit imparts the finished work of Christ to the Hearts of the Elect, but be it understood, it was imputed before it was imparted. Imputed Righteousness is legal and objective, whereas imparted is experimental and subjective.

 

[Dr. Walter]

HP: It is believed by many that Christ imputes His righteousness to us, in that nothing we do has any effect upon our standing before God. Further more, it is said that it was imputed to us at the cross, Christ having paid for all past, present and future sins. It is denied that there are conditions to salvation, or for this imputation to have taken place. It reduces ‘our salvation experience’ to merely coming to the recognition that we, as one chosen to salvation, have really had our sins paid for two thousand years ago, but are we ever glad that today we come to the realization of our imputed inheritance.

The righteousness of Christ is not imputed to the elect until the point of personal faith in the gospel (Rom. 3:24-5:2). In Romans 5:12-18 we have Christ acting as the Federal head or representative for his elect thus obtaining the provision for justification. By one man's sin the consequences were experienced through birth and by one man's righteousness the consequences are likewise experienced through birth - new birth. The new birth and gospel conversion are inseparable connected in a cause and effect relationship. SPIRITUAL life comes through regeneration whereas LEGAL life comes through conversion to the gospel. SPIRITUAL life is eternal life by SPIRITUAL union whereas LEGAL life is eternal life by LEGAL union or justification.

There is no such thing as an unregenerated believer or an unbelieving regenerate. Regeneration and conversion are not the same but they are joined together just as repentance and faith are joined at the hip in gospel conversion.

 

[savedbymercy]

dr walt:

The righteousness of Christ is not imputed to the elect until the point of personal faith in the gospel

Thats not True. The elect are made Righteous by the Obedience of One Rom 5:19

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

You see that ? By the Obedience of one, not two.. That obedience being His obedience unto death, even the death of the cross Phil 2:8

8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

 

[Dr. Walter]

dr walt:



Thats not True. The elect are made Righteous by the Obedience of One Rom 5:19

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

You see that ? By the Obedience of one, not two.. That obedience being His obedience unto death, even the death of the cross Phil 2:8

8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

You are misunderstanding my point. Don't confuse representation with imputation. Representation refers to the sole actions of one man in behalf of others but imputation refers to the legal application of those actions or justification whereby that representative action is applied to others. Don't confuse God's purpose with God's application. Don't confuse God's purpose with time and space when purpose becomes reality.

For example, we are "in Christ" by purpose before the world began (Eph. 1:4) but we were not "in Christ" before the world began actually and literally because we did not exist actually and literally. We were "in Christ" purposely or by purpose, or by plan - the blue print preexisted the reality. By purpose we were already conformed to the image of Christ, called, justified and already glorified before the world began (Rom. 8:28-30) but we were not so in time and space until it was applied individually and personally at new birth and conversion.

We were justified by purpose before the world began (Rom. 8:29) and we were justified by representation in the life and death of Christ but we were not justified by application in time or space until we believed in the gospel. Don't confuse the provision for justification with act of justification.

 

[percho]

dr walt:



Thats not True. The elect are made Righteous by the Obedience of One Rom 5:19

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

You see that ? By the Obedience of one, not two.. That obedience being His obedience unto death, even the death of the cross Phil 2:8

8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Would you say that the above could be called obedience of faith?

Young's Literal Translation
Romans 1:5 through whom we did receive grace and apostleship, for obedience of faith among all the nations, in behalf of his name;
Romans 16:26 and now having been made manifest, also, through prophetic writings, according to a command of the age-during God, having been made known to all the nations for obedience of faith --

That being the faith of Christ by which we shall be found at his appearing?

YLT Phil. 3:9 not having my righteousness, which [is] of law, but that which [is] through faith of Christ -- the righteousness that is of God by the faith, (understood of Christ)

Romans 1:5 through whom we did receive grace and apostleship, for obedience of faith (of Christ) among all the nations, in behalf of his name;
Romans 16:26 and now having been made manifest, also, through prophetic writings, according to a command of the age-during God, having been made known to all the nations for obedience of faith -- (of Christ)

Also if you follow up in Phil, 3, being found will take place at the resurrection. Is this also the time when Paul would consider himself to be perfected? Phil 3:11,12 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. See also Hebrews 11:35 last part that they might obtain a better resurrection: 39,40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: (resurrection to life) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. Therefore is this being found not at the same time? 2 Cor.5:2,3 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. Now what are we clothed in? What is this house from heaven? Is it not this? Rev. 19:7,8 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. Which would be eternal life in a spiritual body.

 

[savedbymercy]

perch:

Would you say that the above could be called obedience of faith?

Rom 5 19 has Christ obedience in view and it is referring to His Death..

 

[savedbymercy]

dr walt:

We were justified by purpose before the world began (Rom. 8:29) and we were justified by representation in the life and death of Christ but we were not justified by application in time or space until we believed in the gospel.

Yes the elect were Justified by God in His Purpose before the world began, which means before Him [ Judicially] they have always been Justified.

I agree that the elect are Justified before their own consciousness in time after New Birth and receiving a Knowledge of their Justification before God, by Faith.

But they were Justified before God legally before Faith, in fact, while they were enemies in their own minds.

Also their sins against the Law, which they did commit after being born a sinner and in Adam, all that was not imputed to their charge ever, but to the charge of their surety, the Lord Jesus Christ, even before the world began, in the terms of the Everlasting Covenant..

 

[Dr. Walter]

dr walt:



Yes the elect were Justified by God in His Purpose before the world began, which means before Him [ Judicially] they have always been Justified.

No sir! They were justified IN PURPOSE only not in reality. They were justified by DESIGN only not in reality.

I agree that the elect are Justified before their own consciousness in time after New Birth and receiving a Knowledge of their Justification before God, by Faith.

No sir! They were by "NATURE" sinners just as were others - unjustified, sinful, condemned and under the wrath of God - "children of wrath" even as others (Eph. 2:2-3).

But they were Justified before God legally before Faith, in fact, while they were enemies in their own minds.

Also their sins against the Law, which they did commit after being born a sinner and in Adam, all that was not imputed to their charge ever, but to the charge of their surety, the Lord Jesus Christ, even before the world began, in the terms of the Everlasting Covenant..

No sir! They were charged with sin and under condemnation even as others (Eph. 2:2-3) or else they could not be regarded by God as "children of wrath" even as others.

You are confusing purpose and provision with time/space and application.

Eph. 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

If they were not under condemnation and charged with sin before the foundation of the world then who did Christ come and die for? Who was he condemned unto death for?

 

[savedbymercy]

dr walt:

No sir!

Yes sir

They were justified IN PURPOSE only not in reality.

God's Purpose is His reality..

No sir! They were by "NATURE" sinners just as were others

Yes they were by nature sinners as others, but they were elect in Christ and not in condemnation as others. and they were Justified while being enemies, unbelievers.

Rom 5:

10For if, when we were enemies [unbelievers], we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Now, Paul speaking of the elect as he himself was, states that when we were enemies, which in the greek is present tense, being enemies, He say we were reconciled [past tense] to God ! How Paul ? Not by our faith, not by our repentance, but by the Death of God's Son..

Now the reconciled is the greek word katallassō and means:


to change, exchange, as coins for others of equivalent value

a) to reconcile (those who are at variance)

b) return to favour with, be reconciled to one

c) to receive one into favour

Now get this Grace of a Truth. When the elect of God are yet in nature and at enmity to God, in unbelief, they nevertheless have been reconciled or received into His Favor, by the Death of His Son.

Now how can those who are received into God's favor, be not Justified[Legally], how could they be under any condemnation [legally] ?

They were charged with sin and under condemnation even as others

No they weren't, Christ was charged with their sins 1 Cor 15:3, the entire elect world never had sin imputed or laid to their to it 2 Cor 5:

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

they could not be regarded by God as "children of wrath" even as others.

Yes they can by nature, they have behaviour and a walk worthy of His wrath. This is describing their walk by nature Eph 2:

2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

They themselves never were the children of disobedience, though they acted like them.

But all that time, they were the favorites of Heaven, Justified by the Blood of Christ..

If they were not under condemnation and charged with sin before the foundation of the world then who did Christ come and die for? Who was he condemned unto death for?

You answered your own question, He was condemned for the elect of God, and so thats the very reason why they could not be condemned. God imputed their condemnation to Him, so they were Justified having no sin laid to their Charge.

 

[Dr. Walter]

dr walt:



Yes sir



God's Purpose is His reality..



Yes they were by nature sinners as others, but they were elect in Christ and not in condemnation as others. and they were Justified while being enemies, unbelievers.

Rom 5:

10For if, when we were enemies [unbelievers], we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Now, Paul speaking of the elect as he himself was, states that when we were enemies, which in the greek is present tense, being enemies, He say we were reconciled [past tense] to God ! How Paul ? Not by our faith, not by our repentance, but by the Death of God's Son..

Now the reconciled is the greek word katallassō and means:


to change, exchange, as coins for others of equivalent value

a) to reconcile (those who are at variance)

b) return to favour with, be reconciled to one

c) to receive one into favour

Now get this Grace of a Truth. When the elect of God are yet in nature and at enmity to God, in unbelief, they nevertheless have been reconciled or received into His Favor, by the Death of His Son.

Now how can those who are received into God's favor, be not Justified[Legally], how could they be under any condemnation [legally] ?



No they weren't, Christ was charged with their sins 1 Cor 15:3, the entire elect world never had sin imputed or laid to their to it 2 Cor 5:

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.



Yes they can by nature, they have behaviour and a walk worthy of His wrath. This is describing their walk by nature Eph 2:

2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

They themselves never were the children of disobedience, though they acted like them.

But all that time, they were the favorites of Heaven, Justified by the Blood of Christ..

They are called "children of wrath" not due to their obedience but to their disobedience and thus they are included as "children of disobedience."

They are not said to be WORTHY of his wrath but rather "children of wrath" and they cannot be "children of WRATH" if they are uncondemnable as wrath is the condemnation for disobedience. They are "children of disobedience" no less and no more than they are "children of wrath" because wrath is the response to disobedience.

Your statement "that is God's reality" is nonsensical. You did not exist in eternity and his "reality" was not your actual existence because you had no actual existence.

If they were never children of disobedience and never under wrath then for whom did Christ die and suffer condemnation for????

Your position is false and your interpretations are simply twisting the scriptures.