In Christ, Eph 1:4: A question for Reformed Baptists

No thanks, the burden of proof is on the OP to establish his/her case. If you want to be lazy about it and still expect others to take your argument seriously that's your choice, but count me out. I won't be wasting my time interacting with the results of your flawed methodology. I only requested the minimum from you. It seems you're satisfied presenting snippets, stringing them together, and then pretending that you're going to discuss what someone really believed.

This is especially flawed for controversial figures like Calvin where it is difficult to discuss his doctrine objectively. Perhaps, you'd be better off looking at Peter Martyr Vermigli's (Musculus too) understanding of Ephesians 1 and see if he confuses you too.

BJ

 

Hello examiningcalvinism,

I'm sorry about that last post. I was in a rush, for I had hit the road.

Indeed I did. Slavation can be pictured in many ways. The atonement is need by the father for the very sins we have partaken in. The wages of sin is death, therefore, Christ death was the payment for our sins. The blood of the Lamb came from and pleased God and ...made is free from the wrath of God. The reason...God no longer sees our sin. The blood covers it. Therefore we are made "right" before God. Notice this. The atonement was from the Son, to the Father. The Father being pleased by the Sons death, then justifies the believer. I point this out, because the believer does nothing but believe.

We are also redeemed By Christ. It is Christ that now owns us in this picture. Bought with a price and that price is Christ blood. We are no loner our own. Once slaves to sin, now serving the Lord. Why is this needed? We still have a sin nature after we are saved.

Indeed it does.

6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

And I would agree. Please notice that the power is given...and it is not given because of mans will.

John 1:12,13
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

We also see this in 2 Tim 2. Notice again repentance is given, and in this passage it tells us why. It must be given because sinners are in captive to the devil.

25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Adoption is yet another picture of salvation. We can look it as well, if you would like.

So I see. You are saying that in Christ is being saved. Well..I agree.

Therefore we can go back to Eph 1, and we have the real meaning...

Yes...and this is why we say Arminianism limits salvation and Gods power. For in Arminianism God wants to save the world, but does not have the power to pull it off.


In Christ...James

 

Jarthur,

You're missing examining's entire thrust. He is saying that you can't receive Christ until you have BELIEVED GOD! Sure, after you believe God, He predestines you to be "elect." All those verses attest to that.

skypair

 

James, may I add this to your comment.

The non-Calvinist wants God to save the world, but does not ascribe to God the power to save anyone.

Further, the atonement secured the salvation of no one.

And Jesus came to make salvation possible, not to actually save sinners.

 

God desires that all would believe and be saved, but if they will not, though He has the power to save all, He will not save those who refuse to believe.

The atonement secured salvation for all who will believe.

Jesus came to save sinners, and all who believe will be saved.

 

Yes...
why? That is what the Bible tells us. Election is not salvation, but to salvation. Slavation only comes when the elect believe. Would you like to see some verses?

 

I'll bite. I think we are in Christ when we are born again, and receive Him as Savior. We are also in Christ, in eternity past when we were elected or chosen before the foundation of the world. I do not believe in eternal justification however. We do, in time, hear the Gospel, and choose to believe. I do believe faith is a gift, given us to be born again. I do not believe we have to believe first to be born again, as a matter of fact we can not.
John 1:13 says who were born not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God. It is not by our will or exercise of faith that we are born again. We are born again first.

My friend Dr. Pete Pettingill puts it nicely about 1 John 2:24;


2.24 ‘As for you, let that abide (remain) in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abide (remain) in you, you also will abide in the Son, and in the Father.’
The way of knowing the truth is to allow to continue to remain in them what they first heard when they responded to Christ for salvation. Then the Holy Spirit came to them and applied the word in their hearts, and if they keep hold of that there will be no danger that they cease to remain in the Father and the Son. This latter idea may mean doctrinally or in spiritual experience. In fact the two go together. As earlier, the secret is to go back to their foundations (2.7).
2.25 ‘And this is the promise which he promised us, even the life eternal.’ It is worth making sure that they do so, for ‘He’ has promised eternal life to those who truly know Him. Eternal life consists in knowing the only true God and Jesus Christ Whom He had sent (John 17.3). It is therefore bound up in both the only true God and in Jesus Christ as the ambassador of the only true God. This does not necessarily separate the only true God and Jesus Christ. Just as an ambassador may be sent by a government of which he is a part, as its representative, so that he is both an essential part of the government and its representative, so Jesus was sent by the only true God, the Godhead of which He is a part, as the representative of the Godhead.

Here is his commentary on 1 John 2:7;



2.7 ‘Beloved, no new commandment do I write to you, but an old commandment which you (plural) had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard.’
Having described them as his ‘little children’ John now addresses them as his ‘beloved ones’. He exemplifies in himself the truth he is exhorting them to. And he wants it immediately clear that he is not bringing to them something new, but something that they had ‘from the beginning’, from when they first responded to Christ. Others may come with innovations but he will bring to them only the true word which was spoken by Jesus and which they received when they were first converted and which has been responsible for all their blessing.
And what is that old commandment? It is what God commanded. Jesus said, ‘for I did not speak from Myself, but the Father Who sent me, He has given me a commandment, what I should say and what I should speak, and I know that His commandment is life eternal. The things therefore which I speak, even as the Father has said to Me, thus I speak’ (John 12.49-50). So it is what He told them. It is ‘the word that they heard’. And what is that word? It is the commandment of eternal life (John 12.50). It is concerning the Word of Life (1.1). It is His word through Jesus. It includes the wide scope of the teaching of Jesus seen as included in one commandment, the commandment of eternal life. It is that they must look to Christ as the light of the world, the light of life (John 8.12). It is the word of the cross, that Christ crucified is the power of God to salvation through His work on the cross and through His resurrection (1 Corinthians 1.18 compare 1.7; 2.2; John 6.52-59; Mark 10.45). It is that sin must be abhorred (1.7-10). It is that they must keep His word and His commandments, His teaching (John 14.10, 23 with 14.15, 21; 15.7 with 15.10) as those who enjoy eternal life. It may be seen as including that they must love one another, although that is the emphasis of a new commandment (John 13.34; 15.12, 17). Thus they are to look back to the old foundations that they first received in the traditions about Jesus. Compare here 3.10 where doing righteousness (which includes loving God and one’s neighbour) and loving one’s brother are two major aspects of the Christian life.

Dr. Pete Pettingill http://uk.geocities.com/jonpartin/1john.html

 

Hello examiningcalvinism,

Yes.

One does not have to take my word for it. You are free to believe as you wish. Remember, you wanted Calvinist to reply to this...

From OP...

I'm just saying your "light sharing" is in error.

Not to be hard on you, that will come later. But why must we believe a quote from a man? If you want to talk about the Bible lets do that. Leave white and calvin out.

BTW...I agree with that statement by white.


[

”
ok

 

Not quite sure where you're going here, but both Numbers 32 and John 3 tell us the same thing. The healing from the snakebite was limited to those who looked on the brass serpent. And Jesus died on the cross for the whosoever wills. The atonement is of no effect for the whosoever won'ts.

If you're trying to make the point that the snakebite healing was available to all, but effective only for those who looked at the serpent; and that the atonement was for all, but effective only for those who believe--I know those arguments.

I suspect you'll think this is inconsistent, but I hold to particular redemption. I believe the atonement satisfied God's justice and no further payment for sin is required. I also believe that nothing prevents a sinner from being saved except his own willful refusal to repent and trust Christ.

Inconsistent though it may sound, I believe both are taught in the scriptures.

 

Why do you put time restraints upon an eternal God? We are bound by time, He is not.

I don't see how it sets up another election. You lost me. When He elected in Christ, it was in Himself also. They are not separate.

 

13. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

When one is born of the Holy Spirit, he can hear the Gospel. Upon hearing we believe, we are sealed in Christ. In Him, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. I hope that makes sense. You are talking to a simple man. :godisgood:

 

The full Godhead is in salvation.

The Father does the chosing. The Holy Spirit does the drawing. The Son does the saving. Yet...Christ choose you before you choose Him, No one can come to the Son unless the Father draws him and we are saved by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.