In Christ, Eph 1:4: A question for Reformed Baptists

[examiningcalvinism]

JA

You wrote: "Its your site and you have your own game you must play."

What????

 

[Jarthur001]

found in this post: 01-24-2007, 11:00 PM

Examining....this is what you said on John 8.

In terms of John 8, also recognize v.42. "If God was your father (as they claimed), then you would love Me." God was not their Father, as they claimed. Had God been their father, like Nathaniel, then like him, they would have received Christ. These people rejected the Father (Isaiah 65:2), rejected John the Baptist. These were not Jesus' sheep because they were not the Father's sheep either.

This is what I have asked 4-5 times...

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

They trusted, only after they heard.

John 8 says...

43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

There are 2 classes of People. The saved and the unsaved.

The saved have a father...God.

The unsaved have a father...The devil.

Those that are born of God....hear Gods voice.

Those that are not born of God...do not hear.


Now i ask again...how does the unsaved that cannot hear the truth, change to hearing the truth, so that they can believe the truth?

Any ideas?

 

[examiningcalvinism]

JA

If I answer, will you answer Ephesians 1:13?

 

[Benjamin]

If I answer, will you answer Ephesians 1:13?

:laugh: Sorry I had to throw that in!

 

[Jarthur001]

You wrote that I "dodge verses" ??? I think that you've lost it completely.

Hello Examining

1...this link
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=938589&postcount=64

This passage

1But now thus saith Jehovah that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel: Fear not, for I have redeemed thee; I have called thee by thy name, thou art mine. 2When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned, neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.

Great passage that I'm sure you have read many times. But most stop reading here and miss the blessing below.

3For I am Jehovah thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour; I have given Egypt as thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba in thy stead.

Did you read that? God is giving up other people as a ransom for His people. Wow!!
You understand what this means? He will do anything for the ones He loves. But wait..there's more..

4Since thou hast been precious in my sight, and honorable, and I have loved thee; therefore will I give men in thy stead, and peoples instead of thy life.

Will give other men in thy stead!! WOW!! You understand this means death..right?

Now..Please notice that the "fear not" below is to His people...

5Fear not; for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west; 6I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back; bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the end of the earth; 7every one that is called by my name, and whom I have created for my glory, whom I have formed, yea, whom I have made. 8Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears. 9Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the peoples be assembled: who among them can declare this, and show us former things? let them bring their witnesses, that they may be justified; or let them hear, and say, It is truth.

1st God gathers His people from all over the earth. Then God gathers all peoples before them. Why? Well...God wanted the other people to witness something. God wanted them to see it with thir own eyes...to hear it with thier own ears. What? Well..it tells us in the next verse.

10Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Chosen not because God looked and learned. We...His people are chosen that they MAY KNOW. They are chosen to BELIEVE. They are chosen that they may UNDERSTAND their need for salvation.

11I, even I, am Jehovah; and besides me there is no saviour. 12I have declared, and I have saved, and I have showed; and there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and I am God

Would you like more?

 

[Jarthur001]

If I answer, will you answer Ephesians 1:13?

I have answered this 3 times. You do not like my answer. So why not ask what you do not understand in my reply, and I will address it

 

[Jarthur001]

You wrote: "Its your site and you have your own game you must play."

What????

Notice this qoute...

It is just bad doctrine to say that God chose us “in Him” and mean we are the ones who place ourselves “in Him”. We did not chose to be born, but we still was born. In 1 Cor 15:22 we are told that we fell into sin and death because we are “in Adam”

This link on your site had my quote word for word.

http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/fi...l/Eph1_13.html

I see its down now, so you must have taken my word and changed it.

 

[examiningcalvinism]

JA

In terms of Eph 1:13 your "answer" is that "the elect are sealed in Christ." That doesn't even come close to addressing the issue. That's a cop-out. If the new birth is reserved in Christ, how can a person be made born again in Christ, or be regenerated in Christ, before being SEALED in Christ? You haven't answered that. I even offered you an answer, and you wouldn't touch it.

Those of John 8 couldn’t hear the truth because they had been hardened. (Isaiah 6:10; John 12:37-41)

As I said in the other post, they “heard” and rejected the Father’s grace who reached out to them all day long (Isaiah 65:2), and they rejected John the Baptist and his ministry of repentance, all while claiming to be Moses’ disciples. Now they are hardened and blinded. So Jesus reveals the problem to them. He says that IF God was their Father, like Nathaniel and like many others in Israel, then they would what? Answer: Then they would "love" Jesus because He proceeded from the Father. The whole POINT is that Jesus was showing them that they were not right with the Father, and that IF they were, then they would love Him, and the Father would have drawn them to Him, and have given them to Him, but as such, being in the persistent unrepentant state, having been now hardened, they couldn stand to listen to Jesus and only wanted to kill Him. These were not Jesus’ sheep, because they, first and foremost, were not the Father’s sheep. You can read all about this on my writeup on John 6:44.

Question: Can a person be Born Again, without being in Christ? Can a condemned unbeliever (John 3:18), be in Christ? One of the most essential teachings of Calvinism is preemptive Regeneration which is preemptively placing them in Christ, while condemned unbelievers, and then after they hear and believe, they are sealed in Christ. In other words, you have them in Christ, before being sealed in Christ. That's the problem.

 

[examiningcalvinism]

JA

Nothing is down, and nothing was changed, except that I added a link to this discussion, just as you requested.

 

[examiningcalvinism]

JA

At Eph 1:4, you add "to be".

At John 1:12-13, you take what we are born of, and make it what we are born "because of".

At Eph 1:13, you say that the elect are sealed in Christ. The elect "in who"? You mean the eternal flock of the Father? You mean those who are eternally in the Father, are then regenerated in Christ, and then after believing in Christ, are sealed in Christ? Do you see what a mess that is?

 

[examiningcalvinism]

Benjamin

Enjoying your popcorn?

 

[examiningcalvinism]

JA

Even if you do not want to agree with me, at least you can honestly evaluate what I'm saying about Eph 1:13, relative to Calvinism. However, if you want to say, "the elect are sealed in Christ" and call that "your answer," then you are entitled to that, but it makes you completely worthless for my need.

 

[Jarthur001]

As I said in the other post, they “heard” and rejected the Father’s grace who reached out to them all day long (Isaiah 65:2), and they rejected John the Baptist and his ministry of repentance, all while claiming to be Moses’ disciples. Now they are hardened and blinded. So Jesus reveals the problem to them. He says that IF God was their Father, like Nathaniel and like many others in Israel, then they would what? Answer: Then they would "love" Jesus because He proceeded from the Father. The whole POINT is that Jesus was showing them that they were not right with the Father, and that IF they were, then they would love Him, and the Father would have drawn them to Him, and have given them to Him, but as such, being in the persistent unrepentant state, having been now hardened, they couldn stand to listen to Jesus and only wanted to kill Him. These were not Jesus’ sheep, because they, first and foremost, were not the Father’s sheep. You can read all about this on my writeup on John 6:44.

hearing in this case as I'm sure you will agree, means understanding.

If they cannot understand their need they WILL reject.

The passage tells us...you MUST be born of God to understand.

How does a person get to the point they understand?

 

[Jarthur001]

Even if you do not want to agree with me, at least you can honestly evaluate what I'm saying about Eph 1:13, relative to Calvinism. However, if you want to say, "the elect are sealed in Christ" and call that "your answer," then you are entitled to that, but it makes you completely worthless for my need.

it is clear you are not reading my post. So lets slow down.

1:13 says...AFTER...

After what?

 

[examiningcalvinism]

JA

You wrote: "How does a person get to the point they understand?"

Answer: by the power of the living and active Gospel through which the Holy Spirit dispenses faith and opens hearts. That's how. However, Calvinism is not about opening hearts, but about changing hearts via preemptive regeneration.

Again, you are teaching that people are regenerated before being sealed in Christ? You are stealing from what is in Christ, and giving it to unbelievers because you deem them "elect."

In case anyone thinks that Calvinism is more honoring to God than Arminianism, check this link: http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Complaints/cc_man.html

 

[examiningcalvinism]

JA

You wrote: "it is clear you are not reading my post. So lets slow down. 1:13 says...AFTER... After what?"

Yes, I am reading, and Iv'e said it in charts, tables, you name it:

After hearing, after believing, you were sealed in Christ. (Eph 1:13)

Now what did I, allegedly, not read?

 

[Jarthur001]

Yes, I am reading, and Iv'e said it in charts, tables, you name it:

After hearing, after believing, you were sealed in Christ.

Now what did I not read?

Ok...

1) they believe after they hear.

Now this a true statement..?

"The unbeliever is of their father the devil, and the lusts of your father they will do."

Its true or false...which is it?

 

[examiningcalvinism]

JA

It is true that unbelievers are condemned and serve the devil and his interests, and hence the necessity of Prevenient Grace, that is, God's grace when He seeks, draws, knocks, convicts, pricks, pierces, and opens hearts to believe. You don't get the new heart, the new birth, regeneration, the Indwelling, ect, until you are sealed in Christ. Those things are restricted and reserved to none but those who are in Christ, and you are stealing.

 

[examiningcalvinism]

For those reading

It is up to the Calvinist to show how unbelievers can biblically be "placed in Christ" in order to become preemptively regenerated, before they are ever sealed in Christ. Unbelievers have no biblical claim for what's in Christ, namely regeneration. Only believers are given the "right" to be sealed in Christ and be made born "of God." (John 1:12-13)

Unbelievers: they get Prevenient Grace

Believers: they get Regenerative Grace, the new birth, a new heart, a new spirit, are made a new creature (2Cor 5:17), receive the indwelling (1Cor 3:16), are made one spirit with God. (1Cor 6:16-17). The Calvinist wants to "borrow" from what is here in Christ, and give it to "elect" unbelievers. Hogwash!

 

[examiningcalvinism]

My main question

If "the elect" are chosen in Christ, then in whom were these "elect" chosen, in order to receive the election to become given to Christ? Isn't it inevitable that it sets up an eternal election in the Father?, and yet the Son says that no one comes to the Father but by Him? (John 14:6)

John Hagee states: “Jesus called a Gentile woman, a dog. He never called the Gentiles His brethren. Let me remind you of something. We did not get plugged in until the cross. We had no basis of standing with God until the cross. There’s where we were in Galatians 3 when Paul said you were outside the covenance of Israel, without hope and without God. That’s very important. Then at the cross, we were plugged in, and we received the riches of Abraham, and we received healing, and we received adoption, and we received all the cornucopia of the blessings of God. But before the cross, we were castoffs. You need to understand that.” (emphasis mine)