In Christ

[Amy.G]

Context is king, other wise you can have the Bible say whatever you wish.

Who was this text toward?

It was toward the apostate Laodicean church.


16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

These people are not saved. They are apostate. Churches are full of unsaved people today also.


18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Jesus is offering them salvation.


19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.


Jesus offers salvation to any man that will hear His voice.

 

[Jarthur001]

I don't really place myself in a group. I just read the Bible and pray for the Lord to help me understand it.

That's not ture. We place ourselves in groups all of the time. Are you a Baptist?

Several times I have presented Titus 2:11 and asked those who believe in Calvin to explain it.

Who has said they believe Calvin? Maybe you should ask it another way.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Good verse. What does all mean?

Now, if Calvinism is true, then all men would be saved. But we know this is not the case. So could you explain your understanding of this verse?

not really.

And could you please show scripture to support your understanding and not the writings of a man?

Therefore I give a portion to him among the many, And with the mighty he apportioneth spoil, Because that he exposed to death his soul, And with transgressors he was numbered, And he the sin of many hath borne, And for transgressors he intercedeth.

 

[Winman]

That's not ture. We place ourselves in groups all of the time. Are you a Baptist?

Yes, I am a Baptist. And I would call myself a Bible believer. As far as Calvinism or Arminianism, I agree with some things, and disagree with some things from both. I believe that once a person is saved they cannot lose their salvation as Calvinism teaches. But I believe man has free will and that any man can trust Christ for salvation as Arminianism teaches.

But I really do not spend much time at all studying the writings of men. I do consult commentaries at times if a passage is difficult. But more often I try to study the Bible and let it explain itself.

And how does Isaiah 53:12 explain Titus 2:11?

And how do you explain Isa 53:6?

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Calvinism teaches Jesus only died for the elect, while Isa 53:6 teaches Jesus died for the iniquities of all men.

 

[OldRegular]

Jesus told Israel he would have converted/healed them "IF" they had not closed their eyes/ears/hearts to his words, even telling them to believe his works if they didn't believe his words,

Now you're claiming Jesus made an offer he couldn't have kept because Israel had not been "CHOSEN" by God.

That is completely false. I have never said Jesus made an offer He could not keep. It is you dispensationalists who have done that saying Jesus Christ made an offer of an earthly Messianic kingdom he could not keep. That is blasphemy.

Is Jesus and God at odds with each other over who they "WANT" to be saved????

You are showing your ignorance of the Godhead for the umpteenth time. There cannot be disunity or disharmony within the Godhead. Again to suggest such is blasphemy.

Can't have it both ways, who's at fault, God or Israel, for them not being Chosen/converted/healed???

Think about it. Man is always accountable God.

 

[Jarthur001]

It was toward the apostate Laodicean church.


16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

These people are not saved. They are apostate. Churches are full of unsaved people today also.


18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Jesus is offering them salvation.


19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.


Jesus offers salvation to any man that will hear His voice.

As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten:

Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [us], and we gave [them] reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened [us] after their own pleasure; but he for [our] profit, that [we] might be partakers of his holiness.

Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Heb 12:12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;

Heb 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

 

[OldRegular]

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Calvinism teaches Jesus only died for the elect, while Isa 53:6 teaches Jesus died for the iniquities of all men.

You simply don't understand Scripture. If Jesus Christ died for all according to your understanding of all; all would be saved.

 

[Amy.G]

As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten:

Ok. Why don't you deal with the rest of the verses I posted.

What is the spiritual meaning for a person to be poor, blind and naked?

 

[Amy.G]

You simply don't understand Scripture. If Jesus Christ died for all according to your understanding of all; all would be saved.

Christ died for all the sins of the whole world. If not, then there are some sins that still need to be atoned for. The atonement makes a way for salvation. But only those who believe will receive the covering of the blood that was shed. The OT picture of this is the passover when the lamb was slain but the blood had to be applied to the door post by the person seeking to be saved from death. It was a matter of faith then and it's the same today, except the blood that we apply is the blood of Christ.

 

[Me4Him]

That is completely false. I have never said Jesus made an offer He could not keep. It is you dispensationalists who have done that saying Jesus Christ made an offer of an earthly Messianic kingdom he could not keep. That is blasphemy.



You are showing your ignorance of the Godhead for the umpteenth time. There cannot be disunity or disharmony within the Godhead. Again to suggest such is blasphemy.

Your doctrine is the one making the accusation against Scripture/God, not me.

Evidently, you don't understand what you believe.

Think about it. Man is always accountable God.

Accountable for what, not being "chosen" by God???

I can't be accountable unless I have a "CHOICE" between "TWO" options.

 

[Jarthur001]

Yes, I am a Baptist. And I would call myself a Bible believer. As far as Calvinism or Arminianism, I agree with some things, and disagree with some things from both.

hummm So you are in a group. Does this mean you follow John the Baptist?

I believe that once a person is saved they cannot lose their salvation as Calvinism teaches.

well.... It is my guess at this point that you really don't believe as Calvinist on this.

But I believe man has free will and that any man can trust Christ for salvation as Arminianism teaches.

Man has a will, but just not free.

But I really do not spend much time at all studying the writings of men.

You talked about Rice before. You mean you never read his books?

I do consult commentaries at times if a passage is difficult. But more often I try to study the Bible and let it explain itself.

Well, that is good. But commentaries are not bad, if you don't allow them to over rule scripture. Church history is not bad, where as many Baptist say it is not needed. They are died wrong.

And how does Isaiah 53:12 explain Titus 2:11?

Therefore I give a portion to him among the many, And with the mighty he apportioneth spoil, Because that he exposed to death his soul, And with transgressors he was numbered, And he the sin of many hath borne, And for transgressors he intercedeth.

And how do you explain Isa 53:6?

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Who are the sheep? Who are goats? Look in John and he will tell you more about this.

Calvinism teaches Jesus only died for the elect,

yes..

while Isa 53:6 teaches Jesus died for the iniquities of all men.

no...it says all WE. Who are the we?

 

[Jarthur001]

Ok. Why don't you deal with the rest of the verses I posted.

What is the spiritual meaning for a person to be poor, blind and naked?

the rest of the verse...

One cannot buy salvation. Jesus paid it all.

 

[Winman]

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Good verse. What does all mean?

Well, it's not speaking of laundry detergent. :laugh:

Sorry, but I couldn't pass that opportunity by. I understand what you are getting at, I didn't include the next verse did I? Well, let's look at it.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Now, I am pretty sure I know what you will argue. That is why I highlighted "us" in verses 12 and 14. You are going to say "all men" in verse 11 only applies to the saved persons mentioned in verses 12 and 14. And I would agree that "us" in verses 12 and 14 could very well be speaking of saved individuals only (the elect).

But there is a problem with that. To believe that you would have to believe that the Holy Spirit was very careless to say "all men" in verse 11. I mean, shouldn't the Holy Spirit have said "us" in verse 11 as well?

Wouldn't that have made the meaning absolutely clear without controversy?

Couldn't the Holy Spirit have said, "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to us"?

So, you don't think the Holy Spirit made a careless mistake do you?

I don't. I think verse 11 says "all men" because it means exactly that, that the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men.

Now, that does not give me a problem at all. If the Holy Spirit beckons and calls a man to salvation, he can willingly accept it or reject it. In fact, I have shown many verses that show a man can accept or reject the offer of salvation.

But you believe this grace is irresistable. So, this is a problem for you. Because if verse 11 means all men (as it clearly says), then all men would be saved. But even you know this is not true.

Of course, if a man can reject God's grace, then there is no conflict with the scriptures, and no conflict with verses 12-14 either.

Like I said, if you can get past the man-made doctrine of irresistable grace then all the scriptures will make perfect sense and you will not find it necessary to explain them away when they contradict you.

 

[Amy.G]

no...it says all WE. Who are the we?

Well, since Isaiah was a Jew, could "we" mean that only the Jews went astray?

Or "we" means that only the elect went astray?

No, I think ALL have gone astray. Therefore, the "we" is all of humanity.

 

[Amy.G]

the rest of the verse...

One cannot buy salvation. Jesus paid it all.

:laugh: Good non answer.

Surely you know that "buy from Me" is speaking of salvation?

 

[Jarthur001]

Well, it's not speaking of laundry detergent. :laugh:

You got me there.

Sorry, but I couldn't pass that opportunity by. I understand what you are getting at, I didn't include the next verse did I? Well, let's look at it.

ok

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

That's the next verse...

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Now, I am pretty sure I know what you will argue. That is why I highlighted "us" in verses 12 and 14. You are going to say "all men" in verse 11 only applies to the saved persons mentioned in verses 12 and 14.

Well, I wasn't going to say this, but this is very true.

And I would agree that "us" in verses 12 and 14 could very well be speaking of saved individuals only (the elect).

Nope...it is talking about believers.

But there is a problem with that. To believe that you would have to believe that the Holy Spirit was very careless to say "all men" in verse 11.

Not careless, but ordained.

I mean, shouldn't the Holy Spirit have said "us" in verse 11 as well?

No...because then it would change the meaning

Wouldn't that have made the meaning absolutely clear without controversy?

I have no problem with the way it is worded now. Why should it be changed?

Couldn't the Holy Spirit have said, "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to us"?

yes he could have

So, you don't think the Holy Spirit made a careless mistake do you?

no

I don't.

good Now we are getting somewhere

I think verse 11 says "all men"

right so far..

because it means exactly that, that the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men.

agreed

Now, that does not give me a problem at all.

good

If the Holy Spirit beckons and calls a man to salvation, he can willingly accept it or reject it.

willingly? Yes indeed. His will demands that he says NO. Always

In fact, I have shown many verses that show a man can accept or reject the offer of salvation.

no you have not. you have shown many verses where the gospel is offered to ALL mankind.

But you believe this grace is irresistable.

indeed I do.

So, this is a problem for you.

hummm why is that?

Because if verse 11 means all men (as it clearly says), then all men would be saved.

no it does not. How did you get that idea?

But even you know this is not true.

even me? Wow...little ol me?

Of course, if a man can reject God's grace, then there is no conflict with the scriptures, and no conflict with verses 12-14 either.

what do you mean "can reject"? Man does reject.

Like I said, if you can get past the man-made doctrine of irresistable grace then all the scriptures will make perfect sense and you will not find it necessary to explain them away when they contradict you.

What makes you think it is "man-made"?

Do you not think that if I say a contradict I would change my views?

Do you not think I feel scripture makes perfect sense under Calvinism?

Wait....if you don't follow John the Baptist....and you are a Baptist....

then...maybe....just maybe....i mean give this some thought...

ok...maybe it is true that being a Calvinist...does not mean I follow john Calvin.

maybe.....just think about it.

 

[Winman]

Old Regular said:

You simply don't understand Scripture. If Jesus Christ died for all according to your understanding of all; all would be saved.

I understand the scriptures.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Verse 1 says that if "any man" sin they have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ. And verse 2 makes the meaning unmistakable, because John shows Jesus is not just the propitiation for the sins of those he is addressing, but for the sins "of the whole world"

It is your doctrine that forces you to pervert the simple and staightworward meaning of these verses. It is Calvinism that will argue "all men" in Titus 2:11 does not really mean all men, but really only means the elect.

It is almost as if you are arguing that the Holy Spirit is clumsy and careless and says things that can be misunderstood and cause controversy.

Couldn't the Holy Spirit have said "the elect" in verse 1 instead of "any man"?
And couldn't the Holy Spirit have said "the sins of the elect" in vs 2?

When are you going to realize that you approach scripture with a pre-conceived idea in your mind. When the verse contradicts your belief, then you attempt to change the clear and straightforward meaning.

Try this. Just pretend. For one minute pretend that grace is not irresistable. Pretend that a man can resist the Holy Spirit and reject the gospel. Pretend that Jesus died for all men, but that a man must accept this free gift of his own free will.

Just pretend. Now, read all these scriptures and see if they make sense just as they are written.

 

[Jarthur001]

Well, since Isaiah was a Jew, could "we" mean that only the Jews went astray?

Or "we" means that only the elect went astray?

No, I think ALL have gone astray. Therefore, the "we" is all of humanity.

Think what you want Amy, the passage still ends the same way...

For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

 

[Amy.G]

Think what you want Amy, the passage still ends the same way...

For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Yes He did. He made intercession for the transgressors which is all people, for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.



I'd still like to know your interpretation of poor, blind and naked. Does the Bible ever talk about the saved in this way?

 

[Winman]

"Many" can mean "all" and I will show you from scripture an example of this.

Matt 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

This parable shows many things. First, it shows a man can resist the will of God. God bid the Jews to the wedding of his son, but they refused to come. He sent again, but they were too busy with the affairs of the world to be bothered (parable of the sower). They also killed the servants God had sent (the prophets).

So God told his servants to go out into the highways and call as many as they could find (the Gentiles). And notice it says they gathered "ALL".

So here is a case where they gathered "all" they could find, but are referred to as "many" at the end of the parable. The point is, they made the attempt to gather every possible person they could. This shows salvation is offered to all.

But one man who was bidden came without a wedding garment. This man did not have the garment of righteousness, he was not saved. And there are those who come to church and participate, but who have never put their trust in Christ. This man was cast out.

So many (which in this parable is all) are called, but few are chosen.

 

[Jarthur001]

:laugh: Good non answer.

Surely you know that "buy from Me" is speaking of salvation?

who is.... tried in the fire?

Believers or non-believers?

I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire,

"That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: Whom having not seen, ye love; in Whom, though now ye see Him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Who is burned by fire?

Believers or non-believers?

If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.