In every political/economic system

[windcatcher]

Sometimes it is better for discussion to just skip over what isn't relevant or bizarre. But when its presented in the OP, it can be ignored or it can be challenged by other opinions which may help the poster to get a better understanding of his own position.

Here we have two people who seem to be agreed and one of them opened the thread. I have no clue why either takes the position which he does or what commentary, or discussions with others, or past experience, have brought each to his position....

Neither of them, imo, knows what he's talking about.

Bill:

The purpose of every political/economic system is to divide the existing wealth pie......... there will always be a top ten percent and a bottom ten percent of the curve.

A 'political/economic system' is called by various names, i.e. government, community, society. The ideal government's purpose is to provide law and a structure of justice which enforces boundaries by which a free people may fully exercise their liberties without crossing the lines which hurt or infringe upon the rights of others. Additionally, the purpose of government is to establish protections for it own people against enemies from within or without, which would deprive its people of their property, resources, or restraint of their abilities, or attack their borders or their governmental sovereignty, or present a danger to their lives. Under these liberal conditions.... as established by the constitution (not the term 'liberal' as the term is used today) a people and their economy might form a correctly shaped bell curve which is reflective more of the industry and ambitions of individuals regardless of their birth into or without an inherited 'advantage'.

However, when government exceeds its boundaries and imposes its own controls and regulations upon the people by regulating their industry; binding their talents and abilities; establishing license and permits and fines upon their businesses; imposing its own contracts to replace the honor or reputation of their word; controlling or preventing the use of resources which they possess; separating them from their property and earnings; interfering with their choices to prioritize their own use of resources within their own community and address the problems of charity, crime, education, etc.; and taxes those who work or have gain to distribute it to others regardless of merit; or creates laws and regulations which give unfair advantage to the affluent who purchase their advantage by political 'endowments' against the smaller competitor who has little margin to contest the advantage or challenge a preferential enforcement against them: It has skewed the bell curve, and created difficulties beyond the control of its people.

Bill:

In other words, politics is the opiate of the people

Karl Marx had a similar saying, "Religion is the opiate of the people."
Both statements, though 'catchy', are wrong.
It is ignorance which is the opiate of the people.
And its opposite.... it is the arrogance of those who think they know everything who make judgements that they know what is best for the people.

As for 'excuses, people who live free without judgement, don't usually make them. When we start imposing our judgements upon others.... or the law 'imposes' upon an individual who breaks it..... then are the excuses made.

The law is a righteous judge when it is morally sound and the people are constrained to honor the boundaries which give equal protection to all and when people are fairly judged. But the judgements of people concerning the 'shoulds' of others is seldom founded in information beyond that of their own experience or their limited vision or observation. Often times the judgements we pass upon others is very generalized and broad, even when we know of individuals for whom the judgement would be a mistake. But we express our opinions often as judgements with a broad brush without fairly acknowledging the exceptions.

Bill:

But Stalin and his friends didn't stand in lines. Many party workers did not stand in lines. The top 10% didn't.

Stalin was a ruthless dictator who overtook the leadership, by thugs and by default of a people unable to unite and hold out for a more practical solution for the establishment of government. He killed nearly everyone who had enough mastery of knowledge or were in positions of trust or reputation which might have rallied the people to form a better government or who might have challenged his own unlawfulness. There was no bell curve then after his genocide and purges and, after many changes, there is no bell curve now.
and

I deny the concept of individual rights. There will always be someone else quicker on the draw, a better shot.

The first is very and sadly telling how unappreciative you are and ignorant your position, as you exercise your right... you deny having any concept of it.

The second, perhaps you reference to the 2nd amendment. If your confronted with a gun and you have none, you have no equalizer or chance..... and it matters not what kind of shot you might have. The dead have no position on your bell curve.

If you have a gun and are confronted with a gun.... unless you give away your reluctance to use or your ignorance to handle.... you cannot predict the outcome; It might even end in a draw, where neither of you shoot... and you each walk away.

Eric:

Still, the trick is, that while individuals aren't better than each other, it is certain individuals who were able to create this system that is better. Or God was on their side. That basically still implies they are better, corporately. Same thing, in the self-exalting human ego. It's called collective narcissism. And using God does not make it right.

For that raises the question whether God really was behind them. With that rationale, the conquest and colonialism always end up becoming justified, because God was guiding it and "blessing" them. I don't see where that was.....etc.

Just a bunch of spiritualizing gobbly gook!
Either God is sovereign or He isn't.
Either the people who established our country and penned our foundational documents, kept His authority in mind as over each person or they didn't.
To acknowledge the authority of God as an obligation of every person to His sovereignty, did not require an agreement of religious doctrine or practice or exercise of belief, to form a government which is based upon a moral people creating a law by which they govern themselves..... of, by, and for the people.
God was recognized in terms of creator, providence, 'nature's God', etc. It was expected that by such broad terms, people would recognize their agreement to mutual civility and law by whatever concept they had of his authority in respect to their varying religions.

It is not narcissistic to acknowledge the truth. We have had the best form of government a morally kept people could ever have. It is narcissistic to think it is still so without acknowledging how we have failed in action and responsibility to maintain it..... and narcissistic to think we can keep it without doing some serious repairs.

 

[RAdam]

What you fail to realize is that no other system in history allowed the lower class a chance to climb out of their condition, not to mention that no other system in history had such a large middle class, much less a middle class at all. The US is a great anomoly in history, and the main reason for that is the way the country in the past honored God, both through the large amount of faithful believers that have and do currently live here and by the founders basing much of our consititution and laws upon biblical principles. Now, as this country forces God further and further out of the government, the schools, and the country and embraces and promotes that which He hates you see the downward trend in this country. I say no wonder. Now you people want to go further away from the founding principles of this country, want to further twist His word, and want to go even further away from God expecting to fix our problems. That is either ignorance of the root of our problems or extreme arrogance, or maybe a bit of both.

 

[Dragoon68]

... It's called collective narcissism. And using God does not make it right. ...

We're not "using God" to justify anything! We are simply grateful for all the blessings He has provided us and should not act as though He had nothing to do with it or He was against it but we did it anyway. It is by His providence that America was founded and prospered. The founders knew these. Generations that followed knew those and acknowledged it. Now it is popular to be critical of it and beat ourselves up as if it were a grand scheme of evil carried out by evil men in the name of God. That is the big lie Satan wants us to believe!

... "Calvinism is the better system" ...

Calvin got it about as right as any man could in his Institutes of the Christian Religion. We could, I suppose, quibble of some sections of it but it's a masterpiece and he had a clear understanding of God's word when he wrote it.

... When we do wrong, God is behind it, and it's justified in that we like the system that resulted from it, and we're just frail humans who can't help our imperfections. ... ...

You bet we like the system! We're not using God to justify our wrongs or our weaknesses. We are merely thankful to Him for that which He has blessed us to have, recognize He is the source of it, and wish to make it known as a testimony to His greatness. Why is it necessary to dwell upon the wrongs when so much has been right? We acknowledge we are not perfect in our own selves and, when we are not, it is because of our rebellion against God.

... This country is so good, and we should not complain about it so much, but then the same people are complaining about the government, and blaming it for all their problems. ...

That's because the government, in our country, is suppose to serve the people - not the other way around. One of the great freedoms we enjoy is the ability to be critical of our government - actually those in government who do not properly represent the spirit embodied in our contract with our government - while still staying within the bounds of lawful conduct. What a blessing that is compared to some other nations! Despite the short comings of our government, other institutions, and our own selves there is presently no better place to live that I know about!

... For one thing, I think we forget that we're supposed to be citizens of another kingdom, ... They still berate the government as if nothing was ever changed, yet aain, all of a sudden become so patriotic when the blame is dstributed more evenly.

We have dual citizenship, Eric B, and must live in this world while we are here. Th Essenes, and many others since, have made the mistake of isolating themselves from this world thinking that would give them a holier existence. We are suppose to live differently but not apart from the world. We are to conduct ourselves in a way that builds up treasure in Heaven but we do so within the confines of life here on earth. We have a duty to participate as citizens even if just to recognize the institution of civil government, obey lawful commands, and to pay our taxes. Beyond that we should make our voice known where it can matter for the sake of our fellow man and we should also serve as ministers of the civil government - in fact, ministers of God - if that be our calling. We do not berate the institution of government but rather the abuse, corruption, waste, and misapplication of corrupt men who become drunk with its power and position.

 

[billwald]

Agree that the US is still the best place in the world for the working class.

What you all call a constitution, I call a social contract.

The concepts you all call "rights," does anyone think the people who control the international corporations care if you own guns? they are happy to sell you guns. You think they care you vote? They own both parties. You think they care if you go to church? They own the company that prints your bible. You think they care if you reverence your constitution? They just stole 3 trillion dollars and you all worry about the possibility of a million of tax money paying for a few abortions. For every billion you are worrying about they are stealing a trillion.

If 10% of your life's enegry goes to something you don't support, then you are a 10% slave. I don't support the war, you don't support abortion. You should be 1000 times happier about government than I am but it seems to be the other way around.

 

[Ivon Denosovich]

[Begin Interesting Aside]

I've always found it ironic that those who accept biological evolution (typical liberals) cringe at economic Darwinism (capitalism's motif) while those who reject biological evolution (typical conservatives) quickly take to the free market principle of "Spontaneous Order"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_order#Markets arising from crudely impersonal commercial rivalries. Must Principle = Principle? On-again/off-again writer for The Economist, Matt Ridley thinks so in one of my favorite books, The Origins of Virtue: Human Instincts and the Evolution of Cooperation. Using analysis of Game Theoryhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_Theory Ridley concludes that the same principles responsible for biological evolution are also responsible for market evolution. Full disclosure: Ridley's an atheist and Libertarian. Further disclosure: I'm not "pushing" atheism but I see interesting parallels in the natural competition necessitated by both biological Darwinism and economic Darwinism... all of which I attribute to the Designer.

[End Interesting Aside]

 

[rbell]

Agree that the US is still the best place in the world for the working class.

Finally. Something we agree on. Of course, Obama's out to destroy the business climate here...

What you all call a constitution, I call a social contract.

Call it a five-legged cross-eyed chicken if you want. Labeling something incorrectly does not change what said item actually is.

The concepts you all call "rights," does anyone think the people who control the international corporations care if you own guns? they are happy to sell you guns. You think they care you vote? They own both parties. You think they care if you go to church? They own the company that prints your bible. You think they care if you reverence your constitution? They just stole 3 trillion dollars and you all worry about the possibility of a million of tax money paying for a few abortions. For every billion you are worrying about they are stealing a trillion.

From the above gobbledygook, I think I gleaned the following info:

1. Bill is paranoid.
2. Bill doesn't get the idea of "freedom." He thinks that every common and proper noun in the world is being used by some sinister being. Like I said...paranoid.
3. Bill doesn't care one whit about the murder of millions of children...if he did, he wouldn't use it as a punchline, or as a stream-of-consciousness "talking point."

If 10% of your life's enegry goes to something you don't support, then you are a 10% slave. I don't support the war, you don't support abortion.

Earth to billwald: It is possible to be passionate about more than one thing. Perhaps you should care about abortion. God does.

You should be 1000 times happier about government than I am but it seems to be the other way around.

That's funny. I don't remember seeing many people on the BB who are grumpier than you, or who make less sense than you do.

 

[Eric B]

Eric:

Just a bunch of spiritualizing gobbly gook!
Either God is sovereign or He isn't.
Either the people who established our country and penned our foundational documents, kept His authority in mind as over each person or they didn't.
To acknowledge the authority of God as an obligation of every person to His sovereignty, did not require an agreement of religious doctrine or practice or exercise of belief, to form a government which is based upon a moral people creating a law by which they govern themselves..... of, by, and for the people.
God was recognized in terms of creator, providence, 'nature's God', etc. It was expected that by such broad terms, people would recognize their agreement to mutual civility and law by whatever concept they had of his authority in respect to their varying religions.

It is not narcissistic to acknowledge the truth. We have had the best form of government a morally kept people could ever have. It is narcissistic to think it is still so without acknowledging how we have failed in action and responsibility to maintain it..... and narcissistic to think we can keep it without doing some serious repairs.

I would go with "they didn't". For ANYBODY can SAY they are basing their principles and morality on God. The Islamists do it, and they look down on us the same way we look down on others. They can point out our culture's immorality as "proof" that Christianity was wrong, and they iron-fisted "principles" were right.
And they too use quasi-predestinarian language of providence with its focus on "sovereignty". Again, anyone can justify any act by calling it "providence". Why is is wrong when someone else does it? THAT is the "spiritualistic gobbledygook"!
What I see is different groups of fallen MEN vying for some sort of divine validation of their own self-serving agendas. And they all claim their collective moral superiority is just "the truth".

We're not "using God" to justify anything! We are simply grateful for all the blessings He has provided us and should not act as though He had nothing to do with it or He was against it but we did it anyway. It is by His providence that America was founded and prospered. The founders knew these. Generations that followed knew those and acknowledged it. Now it is popular to be critical of it and beat ourselves up as if it were a grand scheme of evil carried out by evil men in the name of God. That is the big lie Satan wants us to believe!

Calvin got it about as right as any man could in his Institutes of the Christian Religion. We could, I suppose, quibble of some sections of it but it's a masterpiece and he had a clear understanding of God's word when he wrote it.

I didn's say anything about Him having "nothing to do with it", but that does not mean that anything that happens (and benefits some people) is automatically right. Particularly under the Calvinist system, God can ordain something wrong, and still "hold the people responsible for it" (I.e. charge THEM as doing the wrong), so that whole "providence means God gave it to us" argument falls under it's own weight. But of course, it freely shifts back and forth at the speaker's convenience.

You bet we like the system! We're not using God to justify our wrongs or our weaknesses. We are merely thankful to Him for that which He has blessed us to have, recognize He is the source of it, and wish to make it known as a testimony to His greatness. Why is it necessary to dwell upon the wrongs when so much has been right? We acknowledge we are not perfect in our own selves and, when we are not, it is because of our rebellion against God.

Well, all I see is OTHER people, and only CERTAIN systems being blamed for everything, as if one group of people did everything right.
And the result is always the praise of the collective one belongs to as the best thing on earth. "Best kept morality". I have never heard so much arrogance from anyone except the Islamists. Where does Christ fit into all of this talk? I guess Phil.2:3 is "spiritual gobbledygook" as well.

That's because the government, in our country, is suppose to serve the people - not the other way around. One of the great freedoms we enjoy is the ability to be critical of our government - actually those in government who do not properly represent the spirit embodied in our contract with our government - while still staying within the bounds of lawful conduct. What a blessing that is compared to some other nations! Despite the short comings of our government, other institutions, and our own selves there is presently no better place to live that I know about!

OK. But that doesn't mean the government is to be blamed for everything, or that that is the only thing wrong in this system. Again, govt. And business are basically the same bracket of people, just using two different types of organization to self-actualize, or whatever they are doing.

We have dual citizenship, Eric B, and must live in this world while we are here. Th Essenes, and many others since, have made the mistake of isolating themselves from this world thinking that would give them a holier existence. We are suppose to live differently but not apart from the world. We are to conduct ourselves in a way that builds up treasure in Heaven but we do so within the confines of life here on earth. We have a duty to participate as citizens even if just to recognize the institution of civil government, obey lawful commands, and to pay our taxes. Beyond that we should make our voice known where it can matter for the sake of our fellow man and we should also serve as ministers of the civil government - in fact, ministers of God - if that be our calling. We do not berate the institution of government but rather the abuse, corruption, waste, and misapplication of corrupt men who become drunk with its power and position.

Problem is, we are not acting like it is dual, we are acting as if this one is it, or that both kingdoms are one in the same. The way you all speak above, as well as much of conservative preaching on politics and morality the last 30 years, you would think this was the Milennial kingdom already, and apparently, It is the end, with Satan "loosed" in the form of the government, and all other "godless" influences.

 

[Dragoon68]

I didn's say anything about Him having "nothing to do with it", but that does not mean that anything that happens (and benefits some people) is automatically right. Particularly under the Calvinist system, God can ordain something wrong, and still "hold the people responsible for it" (I.e. charge THEM as doing the wrong), so that whole "providence means God gave it to us" argument falls under it's own weight. But of course, it freely shifts back and forth at the speaker's convenience.

When we fail to recognize the blessings we have received - acknowledging the source of them - and give thanks for them we risk loosing those blessings and being reminded - yanked back in line - of just how helpless you otherwise are. The founders and many subsequent generations of Americans understood this and were grateful to Him for what He provided us regardless that we did not merit it. Eric B, that never falls! But, today we have more and more people denying that God did this and that somehow it was all just a plot of greedy and evil men and that, therefore, America as a nation is nothing special at all. Baloney!

Well, all I see is OTHER people, and only CERTAIN systems being blamed for everything, as if one group of people did everything right. And the result is always the praise of the collective one belongs to as the best thing on earth. "Best kept morality". I have never heard so much arrogance from anyone except the Islamists. Where does Christ fit into all of this talk? I guess Phil.2:3 is "spiritual gobbledygook" as well.

I hope you're not taking up for Islam with these statements! I don't see America blaming everyone else for everything evil in the world. As as been said, we have our faults and have made some mistakes. Yet there's no doubt in my mind that Islam is a threat to the entire world and the terrorism that is being supported by it is definitely the source of the evil that has plunged us into war with the perpetrators of it. There is also no doubt that America demonstrates a far superior system of self-governance than the unstable and radical systems of Islamic nations and that stands in spite of all the things we don't like that are internally moving us away from out ideals.

No part of scripture is "gobbledygook" but all of it has to be read and understood against other scripture. Philippians was written to the Christians of the young Church in Philipi. If you expand the sentence to a paragraph you get a much better understanding of what was written:

"If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others."

It was written to encourage accord among the Christians of the Church and discourage selfish vanity in the Church. It was the same line of thought as that which told us to be first we must be last. That was the example Christ gave - He served where He should have been served. Christ's words always stand true!

This, however, is in no ways a prohibition against recognizing the greatness of a nation that has been blessed by God nor discernment of the inferior design or practices of others as it be or not be the case. Recognizing one's fallen state, equality with other men, dependency upon grace, etc. does not remove our ability to make judgments of what is worst, okay, better, or best.

OK. But that doesn't mean the government is to be blamed for everything, or that that is the only thing wrong in this system. Again, govt. And business are basically the same bracket of people, just using two different types of organization to self-actualize, or whatever they are doing.

No, it doesn't mean the government is to be blamed for everything nor given credit for everything either. But it also doesn't give the government a free pass and especially those people who would implement everything they desire through the institution of government contrary to God's plan for various other institutions He did create. The people, of course, are the same - I'm not sure what your point is with that obvious statement! The impact people can have with their corrupt nature does vary according to what power and position they hold over others. Government is very dangerous because it operates with the force of law which is very different than the choices of a free market. That's a difference we should all be able to discern.

Problem is, we are not acting like it is dual, we are acting as if this one is it, or that both kingdoms are one in the same. The way you all speak above, as well as much of conservative preaching on politics and morality the last 30 years, you would think this was the Milennial kingdom already, and apparently, It is the end, with Satan "loosed" in the form of the government, and all other "godless" influences.

I'm probably more an amilennialist than not so I could not possibly believe we're in the millennial kingdom already! I do know that I'm alive today and on this earth and, therefore, must live in it as a citizen of it. I believe I have been blessed to live in America and enjoy its many temporal benefits. I think I should treat those benefits as gifts from God to be protected and preserved for future generations to enjoy until such time as the Lord comes again or, by His providence, brings about changes. I also know that my future home is in Heaven and therefore I'd better live here with that in mind.

 

[billwald]

Ivon:

I think your author has confused Social Darwinism with evolution. The theory of evolution ONLY predicts change and not the direction it will take. Further, people confuse the historical (common sense of the word) evidence of the operation of the theory with the theory, itself.

Take flu vaccines for example. Biologists use statistical evidence from past flu seasons to predict which will might be bothersome in the coming year and sometimes they get it right. There is no direct connection between this analysis and Darwin's theory. The chain is very thin. It is a direct result of our knowledge of DNA and the ability to sequence it. This ability would have probably come about because of other technical developments if Darwin had never been born.

Social Darwinism was popularized by Hitler and Stalin, the idea that evolution "teaches" a progression from "simple" to "complex" organisms. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trofim_Lysenko) This may have happened but it is not inherent in the theory. From this error comes the idea that complexity produces superiority. NOT TRUE! Evolution only relates to adaptation to the environment. The cockroach has been around much longer than humans and thus biologically superior.

If one accepts a 6 day creation then the cockroach is still one day superior to humans in terms of evolution.

 

[billwald]

>2. Bill doesn't get the idea of "freedom." He thinks that every common and proper noun in the world is being used by some sinister being.

And his proper name is "Satan." Find me two NT verses that indicate Christians should be concerned with political freedom.

 

[Eric B]

When we fail to recognize the blessings we have received - acknowledging the source of them - and give thanks for them we risk loosing those blessings and being reminded - yanked back in line - of just how helpless you otherwise are. The founders and many subsequent generations of Americans understood this and were grateful to Him for what He provided us regardless that we did not merit it. Eric B, that never falls! But, today we have more and more people denying that God did this and that somehow it was all just a plot of greedy and evil men and that, therefore, America as a nation is nothing special at all. Baloney!

Hello! That's the way the fallen world is. God does not have "chosen" physical nations or governments anymore. The OC showed that man is too sinful for that to work. Even under "His guidance!" Yet sinful man always wants to think that he or his system is "special". Even if they credit God for it, it always ends up being more about them, and they getting the glory, especially in some comparison with others.

And the truth is, what they were "thanking" God for was what was gained from their own actions of going and taking things from others; ising "providence" to justify it. It's like seeing a prostitute, and "thanking God" for the "providence", and then concluding from that that it wasn't sin.

And this whole "thankfulness" argument is getting away from the point. The whole context this "thankfulness" has come up in is blaming others, claiming that there is this superior system, "proven" by it being ordained by God. Hence, we "thank" Him for it, therefore, it is faultless, and everything that goes wrong in it is someone else's fault, and they wrecked God's system.

I hope you're not taking up for Islam with these statements! I don't see America blaming everyone else for everything evil in the world. As as been said, we have our faults and have made some mistakes. Yet there's no doubt in my mind that Islam is a threat to the entire world and the terrorism that is being supported by it is definitely the source of the evil that has plunged us into war with the perpetrators of it. There is also no doubt that America demonstrates a far superior system of self-governance than the unstable and radical systems of Islamic nations and that stands in spite of all the things we don't like that are internally moving us away from our ideals.

But they use the same line of reasoning you are using, and what you call a threat, they call the means to better morality (such as all the smut and sinful entertainment that thrives here, but is outlawed over there), just like what you saw as "providence", for the founders, those being conquered/enslaved naturally saw as a threat.

No part of scripture is "gobbledygook" but all of it has to be read and understood against other scripture. Philippians was written to the Christians of the young Church in Philipi. If you expand the sentence to a paragraph you get a much better understanding of what was written:

"If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others."

It was written to encourage accord among the Christians of the Church and discourage selfish vanity in the Church. It was the same line of thought as that which told us to be first we must be last. That was the example Christ gave - He served where He should have been served. Christ's words always stand true!

This, however, is in no ways a prohibition against recognizing the greatness of a nation that has been blessed by God nor discernment of the inferior design or practices of others as it be or not be the case. Recognizing one's fallen state, equality with other men, dependency upon grace, etc. does not remove our ability to make judgments of what is worst, okay, better, or best.

But the principle of this scripture IS being violated in all this. Don't you see what is going on? It's never just any judgment of "better". It's always the system the person arguing identifies with that is deemed "better". Isn't that just like self-righteous, sin-denying man? Doesn't anyone ever think that it's too good to be true? It always just happens that "the truth" is that the "best" system; God's system, is ours!
It's just an extension of the self. Nobody ever acknowledges something they don't identify with as better.

No, it doesn't mean the government is to be blamed for everything nor given credit for everything either. But it also doesn't give the government a free pass and especially those people who would implement everything they desire through the institution of government contrary to God's plan for various other institutions He did create. The people, of course, are the same - I'm not sure what your point is with that obvious statement! The impact people can have with their corrupt nature does vary according to what power and position they hold over others. Government is very dangerous because it operates with the force of law which is very different than the choices of a free market. That's a difference we should all be able to discern.

No, the government shouldn't get a pass, but then neither should the private sector. The government may have a little more official power, but then the private sector has a considerable amount of power, and can even influence government.

I'm probably more an amilennialist than not so I could not possibly believe we're in the millennial kingdom already! I do know that I'm alive today and on this earth and, therefore, must live in it as a citizen of it. I believe I have been blessed to live in America and enjoy its many temporal benefits. I think I should treat those benefits as gifts from God to be protected and preserved for future generations to enjoy until such time as the Lord comes again or, by His providence, brings about changes. I also know that my future home is in Heaven and therefore I'd better live here with that in mind.

oh, amilennial. I guess that explains it. I'm not going to argue against that, but I do not believe it it, and feel it does lend to thinking one can create the Kingdom here on earth (post-millennialism also). Yes, we have to live here and try to make the best of it. I just think we need to be more aware of the flaws of this system, and not concentrate all the blame only on one side of it. It's just not accurate.

 

[Dragoon68]

Hello! That's the way the fallen world is. God does not have "chosen" physical nations or governments anymore. The OC showed that man is too sinful for that to work. Even under "His guidance!" Yet sinful man always wants to think that he or his system is "special". Even if they credit God for it, it always ends up being more about them, and they getting the glory, especially in some comparison with others.

I have not said that Amerrica is God's "chosen" nation - I have said that America has been greatly blessed through the providence of God. Historically we gave God the glory for our greatness - we did not claim it of our own selves - although I must say that we have drifted away from that and I suspect, but can not knowing the mind of God cannot be certain, that He is reminding us and warning us through recent events.

And the truth is, what they were "thanking" God for was what was gained from their own actions of going and taking things from others; ising "providence" to justify it. It's like seeing a prostitute, and "thanking God" for the "providence", and then concluding from that that it wasn't sin.

America was built by hard work - blood, sweat, and tears - through the grace of and power of God - It was not stolen from any one and it was not founded in sin although it did involve sinful men as we all are. What on earth does engaging a whore have to do with America's beginnings? What sinfulness are you talking about? You're not making the least bit of sense to me on this one!

And this whole "thankfulness" argument is getting away from the point. The whole context this "thankfulness" has come up in is blaming others, claiming that there is this superior system, "proven" by it being ordained by God. Hence, we "thank" Him for it, therefore, it is faultless, and everything that goes wrong in it is someone else's fault, and they wrecked God's system.

Being thankful for blessings is the right thing to do, Eric B. Who do you think provided for the blessings we have enjoyed if it was not God? Do you think the King of England did that? Do you think our enemies did? Do you think we did it all ourselves? No sir, God through his providence did so. We'd better be tankful for it and stop belittling it else He will likely take it away because we have become ungrateful.

But they use the same line of reasoning you are using, and what you call a threat, they call the means to better morality (such as all the smut and sinful entertainment that thrives here, but is outlawed over there), just like what you saw as "providence", for the founders, those being conquered/enslaved naturally saw as a threat.

Well it does seem you have some admiration for Islamic law. Here in America we use government to restrain wickedness - not with the false illusion that we can eliminate it all and thereby have an ideal society of one common religion and morality. It would be a mistake to try that because it wouldn't work here either. We built a system based on Christian beliefs but we left lots of room for people and other institutions to exercise their own liberty and regulate those things in their domain. We did this knowing the corruptibility of man and his lust for power and position. We purposefully limited what government can do and left the responsibility to the individual, the family, and the Church - a free Church - to regulate morality in subjection to God's laws.

But the principle of this scripture IS being violated in all this. Don't you see what is going on? It's never just any judgment of "better". It's always the system the person arguing identifies with that is deemed "better". Isn't that just like self-righteous, sin-denying man? Doesn't anyone ever think that it's too good to be true? It always just happens that "the truth" is that the "best" system; God's system, is ours! It's just an extension of the self. Nobody ever acknowledges something they don't identify with as better.

Nope! That sort of argument leads to nothing every being better than anything else and thereby everything being equal. It fits right in there with the thinking there is no absolute truth but only opinions! The system America has been the best one yet established as known by man and it is a blessing for God that we enjoy the liberty and prosperity that we do. It should be obvious from the last couple of hundred years of history. It should be obvious by the predominate direction of immigration. It should be obvious by the desire of so many other nations to emulate the system established here. Even the communist nations wish to incorporate the elements of capitalism into their own society once they see their system does not produce the idealistic results they proclaim.

No, the government shouldn't get a pass, but then neither should the private sector. The government may have a little more official power, but then the private sector has a considerable amount of power, and can even influence government.

Both business and consumer are controlled by the free market and regulated by government. The key is to limit the regulation by government to the minimum necessary to provide reasonable safeguards and recourse for injustice. The free market provides a fair self-regulating means for the exchange of goods and services. People produce the goods and services that other people want at a price they are willing to sell and the others are willing to buy. It works even in the worst times! It fosters innovation and growth through competition. Left alone it is blind to politics. It is not perfect and some regulation is appropriate but only to the minimum extent necessary to restrain its few downsides.

oh, amilennial. I guess that explains it. I'm not going to argue against that, but I do not believe it it, and feel it does lend to thinking one can create the Kingdom here on earth (post-millennialism also). Yes, we have to live here and try to make the best of it. I just think we need to be more aware of the flaws of this system, and not concentrate all the blame only on one side of it. It's just not accurate.

What? You must not understand amillennialism very well if you think that it tends towards believing we can create the Kingdom here on earth! That's baloney! We believe that when Jesus comes again this world is history and there is no 1,000 year kingdom on earth followed by a final rise of Satan.

 

[billwald]

>America was built by hard work - blood, sweat, and tears - through the grace of and power of God - It was not stolen from any one

The US Govt just paid off the Indian People at ten cents on the dollar for stolen coal and natural gas.

> and it was not founded in sin although it did involve sinful men as we all are.

Please explain "founded in sin." Which nation wasn't "founded with good intentions?"

 

[Eric B]

I have not said that Amerrica is God's "chosen" nation - I have said that America has been greatly blessed through the providence of God. Historically we gave God the glory for our greatness - we did not claim it of our own selves - although I must say that we have drifted away from that and I suspect, but can not knowing the mind of God cannot be certain, that He is reminding us and warning us through recent events.

The line of reasoning you are using would be fitting for a "chosen nation". We are so much better than everyone else. Every other nation, just about; is a product of man's sin; but God specially guided our founders. Not even Israel lived up to that fantasy, and they were actually founded by God!

America was built by hard work - blood, sweat, and tears - through the grace of and power of God - It was not stolen from any one and it was not founded in sin although it did involve sinful men as we all are. What on earth does engaging a whore have to do with America's beginnings? What sinfulness are you talking about? You're not making the least bit of sense to me on this one!

so I guess there were no Indians living here first, and no slavery (who dreally did most of the hard work/"blood, sweat tears"?) , and all of that. Those demonic heathens were being punished by God, and forefeited all their human rights just like the Canaanites God ordered Israel to clear out, so that doesn't count; right?
Problem is, the Cross came between those two events, and Christians were no longer commanded to clear out the heathen and take their land. Only to give them the Gospel. So it is just as sinful as seeing a prostitute. Sin is sin. Read James 2:11; specially written to this mindset!

Being thankful for blessings is the right thing to do, Eric B. Who do you think provided for the blessings we have enjoyed if it was not God? Do you think the King of England did that? Do you think our enemies did? Do you think we did it all ourselves? No sir, God through his providence did so. We'd better be tankful for it and stop belittling it else He will likely take it away because we have become ungrateful.

Being thankful for our benefit is one thing; ignoring the reality of it is another. If someone kills someone, and takes their money, and gives it to another person and tells them it was God's providence, and they should be thankful for it, (and the person does not find out about this until much later, and it's too late to give any recompense to the survivors), he can be thankful, but that does not change the reality of the sin.

And again; this is sidetracking the issue. I'm not talking about how we should respond to what we have today. It's using this to place blame on only one side of the system, as if it had messed up God's system., when it was never God's system.

Well it does seem you have some admiration for Islamic law.

No. But that's the way your side argues. Taking you off your pedestal is tantamount to upholding the evil of the other side. So you're system is virtually faultless; or I'm on the side of the enemy!

Nope! That sort of argument leads to nothing every being better than anything else and thereby everything being equal. It fits right in there with the thinking there is no absolute truth but only opinions! The system America has been the best one yet established as known by man and it is a blessing for God that we enjoy the liberty and prosperity that we do. It should be obvious from the last couple of hundred years of history. It should be obvious by the predominate direction of immigration. It should be obvious by the desire of so many other nations to emulate the system established here. Even the communist nations wish to incorporate the elements of capitalism into their own society once they see their system does not produce the idealistic results they proclaim.

So it's the Bible that says that God has concluded "all under sin" (i.e. equal; but in a negative way, and this in the dispute between the "heathen" gentiles, and God's nation of the Israelites!); but that destroys absolute truth! The absolute truth is that all are equally sinful. By denying this and saying some are "better", THAT is what dissolves God's absolute truth. god's standard hes to be bent; sin becomes justified, determined as not mattering, and swept under the rug.
When people stand before God, is He going to hear "But I was better than him over there..."? It has no place in the equation of the Gospel! None whatsoever! This is just what the Pharisee and tre Publican story was about.

Also, I forgot to mention before; where in scripture do people ever extol one human government or nation as "better"? the only ones who do that are the Christ-rejecting Israelites; and this right before God "took away" from them, and allowed them to be destroyed after ignoring all of His warnings.

What? You must not understand amillennialism very well if you think that it tends towards believing we can create the Kingdom here on earth! That's baloney! We believe that when Jesus comes again this world is history and there is no 1,000 year kingdom on earth followed by a final rise of Satan.

Well, maybe that was more post-mil, but I have seen a-mil seem to in practice count more on political policy, at least in comparison to pre-mils who believe only Christ's return can create a better world.

 

[Dragoon68]

>America was built by hard work - blood, sweat, and tears - through the grace of and power of God - It was not stolen from any one

The US Govt just paid off the Indian People at ten cents on the dollar for stolen coal and natural gas.

> and it was not founded in sin although it did involve sinful men as we all are.

Please explain "founded in sin." Which nation wasn't "founded with good intentions?"

Hogwash, Billwald, hogwash!

The Indian people didn't own the entire North American continent, live in perfect peace and harmony with everyone around them, nor have a superior value system than the other people who came here a bit later as some people would like us to believe. Sure, there was some mistreatment of them by us, but that cut both ways and among themselves as well. History has been re-written to portray them as helpless victims of European conquest who had the perfect culture and total dominion of the land before we came along. You'd think they were mystical saints the way some media tells it!

"Founded in sin" is used as a counter to the assertion that America was not "founded on Christian beliefs" which, in fact, it was. Many nations have been founded on the bad intentions of men hungry for power and position or taken over by them afterward. Most of Central America, South America, Central Asia, Asia Minor, Eastern Asia, Southwest Asia, and Africa would fit the criteria very nicely. Many countries in those areas are still hopelessly lost in the struggles brought about by such men and the citizens therein don't have the precious blessings God has for some reason permitted us to enjoy.

We, as individuals aren't one bit better than anyone else and don't deserve what we have any more than anyone else, but for some reasons we have been blessed. We, as a nation, have made mistakes and our liberties have not been perfectly executed but we've continued to fix the mistakes and help many other nations along the way in their own quest for similar liberties. We have attempted - perhaps too eagerly at times - to share and encourage the blessings we have with others around the world and often times with a lack of good reception or appreciation.

Some of you that are so down on America - the history, culture, and systems of America - really need to go spend some time in some of the other "wonderful" places around the world with which you desire to normalize that with which God has blessed us. Maybe those who think this way should also spend some time living with some native tribes like those that you think owned America once upon a time. You don't have a clue what you're comparing!

I think America was, is, and can still be a great nation - not perfect but great - and I think we ought to recognize that and give thanks for it else maybe God will ultimately remove the blessings He has given us. The sheer weight of ungratefulness must be very painful for Him to bear.

 

[Eric B]

Hogwash, Billwald, hogwash!

The Indian people didn't own the entire North American continent, live in perfect peace and harmony with everyone around them, nor have a superior value system than the other people who came here a bit later as some people would like us to believe. Sure, there was some mistreatment of them by us, but that cut both ways and among themselves as well. History has been re-written to portray them as helpless victims of European conquest who had the perfect culture and total dominion of the land before we came along. You'd think they were mystical saints the way some media tells it!

Nobody has said that, but whatever their soceities were like before; that's still no exsue for anyone else to come and take; especially the so-called "Christian" civlizations that should have known better; and were never given any such commission or authorization in the New Testament.

"Founded in sin" is used as a counter to the assertion that America was not "founded on Christian beliefs" which, in fact, it was. Many nations have been founded on the bad intentions of men hungry for power and position or taken over by them afterward. Most of Central America, South America, Central Asia, Asia Minor, Eastern Asia, Southwest Asia, and Africa would fit the criteria very nicely. Many countries in those areas are still hopelessly lost in the struggles brought about by such men and the citizens therein don't have the precious blessings God has for some reason permitted us to enjoy.

And that sounds just like America; only they were Protestants and not Catholics or other religions.
And "Protestant"; only nominally so; as they were not all born again Christians!

Some of you that are so down on America - the history, culture, and systems of America - really need to go spend some time in some of the other "wonderful" places around the world with which you desire to normalize that with which God has blessed us. Maybe those who think this way should also spend some time living with some native tribes like those that you think owned America once upon a time. You don't have a clue what you're comparing!

It just sounds like we're "down" on it; because we are putting it back in its proper perspective; where you have overromanticized it. Nobody said those other places were "better". You're the only one thinking in terms of "better". Don't project your "some are better than others" valuation on us.

I think America was, is, and can still be a great nation - not perfect but great - and I think we ought to recognize that and give thanks for it else maybe God will ultimately remove the blessings He has given us. The sheer weight of ungratefulness must be very painful for Him to bear.

That is just a smokescreen. I'm not talking about how satisfied I am here; and I don't think billwald is either. So we can't even point out some flaws without being "unthankful"; yet Paul said that government was from God, and is only a terror to lawbreakers; and the govt. he was talking about was not a Christan one; but rather a godless pagan one that persecuted Christians; yet it is OK to complain about that, and blame it for everything! The stuff done in His name, and that people try to justify it and claim it was His "providence" is painful for Him to hear as well.

 

[Dragoon68]

The line of reasoning you are using would be fitting for a "chosen nation". We are so much better than everyone else. Every other nation, just about, is a product of man's sin; but God specially guided our founders. Not even Israal lived up to that fantasy!

Again, Eric B, I said nothing about America being a "chosen nation" - those are your words. I said that America has been greatly blessed by the providence of God. You can stop trying to make the connection to Israel now!

But, on the other hand, yes America is unique among nations in its implementation of representative government and that model has since served as a model for others who desire the same benefits of it. You do realize how good - not perfect for it does have flaws and one that is fatal - it is compared to the norm, don't you?

so I guess there were no Indians living here first, and no slavery (who dreally did most of the hard work/"blood, sweat tears"?) , and all of that. Those demonic heathens were being punished by God, and forefeited all their human rights just like the Canaanites God ordered Israel to clear out, so that doesn't count; right?

See my response to Billwald who apparently also believes America is second class. Remember that it is America that brought an end to slavery and established equality for all men regardless of race or ethnicity. That, Eric B and Billwald, still isn't the true of many other places around the world. Remember also that both the Indians and the Africans were themselves engaged in enslaving their own and those of their enemies. Slavery was not invented in or by America - slavery was put to death by America! Stop putting down this great land by your misconceptions of history!

Problem is, the Cross came between those two events, and Christians were no longer commanded to clear out the heathen and take their land. Only to give them the Gospel. So it is just as sinful as seeing a prostitute. Sin is sin. Read James 2:11; specially written to this mindset!

Sin is sin before God and He made that clear many times in the scripture. I by the way, have confessed that I am a murderer, adulterer, thief, and liar - in thought and in deed - so I can claim no superiority to any other man of any time or place. But that has nothing to do with comparing America to a whore - that was a ridiculous, tasteless, and disrespectful comparison. America is no whore among nations!

Being thankful for our benefit is one thing; ignoring the reality of it is another. If someone kills someone, and takes their money, and gives it to another person and tells them it was God's providence, and they should be thankful for it, (and the person does not find out about this until much later, and it's too late to give any recompense to the survivors), he can be thankful, but that does not change the reality of the sin.

So what's the relevance of this point, Eric B? Is this another conviction of the sins of America? It is impossible for any institution of man to be without sin - even the Church - so America can not have been or be perfect. America did not steal the land from anyone else and that includes the people who lived here before we arrived and who themselves warred amongst each other and those who were here before them.

And again; this is sidetracking the issue. I'm not talking about how we should respond to what we have today. It's using this to place blame on only one side of the system, as if it had messed up God's system., when it was never God's system.

You are the one placing blame on America! I don't understand your point about "messing up God's system". I just say that God has blessed America by permitting us to enjoy the liberty, prosperity, and peace that we have which many others do not. I give God the full credit for that. I ask you again, if it is not from God then who is it from?

No. But that's the way your side argues. Taking you off your pedestal is tantamount to upholding the evil of the other side. So you're system is virtually faultless; or I'm on the side of the enemy!

You are on the side of the enemy if you take the side of Islam. That's your decision - not mine! Islam is a great threat to us all! Islam most definitely considers themselves to be on the pedestal. You're not up there with them are you?

So it's the Bible that says that God has concluded "all under sin" (i.e. equal; but in a negative way, and this in the dispute between the "heathen" gentiles, and God's nation of the Israelites!); but that destroys absolute truth! The absolute truth is that all are equally sinful. By denying this and saying some are "better", THAT is what dissolves God's absolute truth. god's standard hes to be bent; sin becomes justified, determined as not mattering, and swept under the rug.

You're the one that's segregating people in to a "better" classification. I haven't said that Americans are better as individuals than anyone else. I've said that Americans have been blessed with greater liberty, prosperity, and peace than others. Why? I don't know except that He say fit to do so. No one deserves any blessing at all. All we deserve is punishment for our rebellion against God. But, for reasons that suit Him - His providence - we've been blessed. Accept that, Eric B, and be happy about it!

When people stand before God, is He going to hear "But I was better than him over there..."? It has no place in the equation of the Gospel! None whatsoever! This is just what the Pharisee and tre Publican story was about.

This is the same argument as above. I'm beginning to think that perhaps you consider yourself better as much as you keep hammering this point when it's not even the issue that contested!

Also, I forgot to mention before; where in scripture do people ever extol one human government or nation as "better"? the only ones who do that are the Christ-rejecting Israelites; and this right before God "took away" from them, and allowed them to be destroyed after ignoring all of His warnings.

I suspect we also we will be "destroyed" if we don't heed His "warnings". The Bible doesn't have a much, if anything to say, about the merits of one form of government over another. It does however validate the purpose of government. The principles of good government - both for leaders and followers - is defined throughout the Bible. Many examples are given of good Kings and bad Kings and the consequences that fell upon them. I don't think there's a literal justification for our particular type of government but, if you take the Bible in its whole and take the history of various governments, you will see that what we have is the best ever devised for having a balance in its structure to provide restraint of wickedness through justice and individual liberty and responsibility for all other institutions to function as well including the Church, the family, and the individual. You know it's true!

Well, maybe that was more post-mil, but I have seen a-mil seem to in practice count more on political policy, at least in comparison to pre-mils who believe only Christ's return can create a better world.

Baloney! Amillenalism has nothing to do with political policy! It is simply one of three major understandings of end time events - mostly there timing - all of which ultimately end the same. You're way off base to suggest only premillennialists believe only Christ's return can create a better world! Christ's return will be the end of the world as we know it today. He will rule forever after that and none of the things we're arguing about will matter regardless which way the come to pass. But before He comes again we're still here - maybe for a day maybe for centuries to come - and we'd best make the best of what we have, seeking to know and follow His will, and always giving Him the praise and thanks for what "good" things we enjoy.

 

[Dragoon68]

Nobody has said that, but whatever their soceities were like before; that's still no exsue for anyone else to come and take; especially the so-called "Christian" civlizations that should have known better; and were never given any such commission or authorization in the New Testament.

But ... we didn't "come in and take" as you imply. We bought land, we traded for it, we settled on it where no one lived, we fought for some of it - but we didn't steal it. Do you think the Indians owned and occupied all the land from shore to shore? Do you really think it was all theirs to do with as they wished? We didn't even make that claim!

And that sounds just like America; only they were Protestants and not Catholics or other religions.
And "Protestant"; only nominally so; as they were not all born again Christians!

Of course they were not all true Christians - never have been and never will be - because they will always be few in number. But, again, we were blessed to establish a government with law based on Christian principles and by a majority of men who know from whence their blessings came and weren't afraid to acknowledge it.

It just sounds like we're "down" on it; because we are putting it back in its proper perspective; where you have overromanticized it. Nobody said those other places were "better". You're the only one thinking in terms of "better". Don't project your "some are better than others" valuation on us.

It would be wonderful if it could be "put back in its proper perspective" but, Eric B, you're not the man for the job because you don't understand that perspective. We need some real statesmen today like the founding fathers who do understand and can articulate it. You're kind of talk will just tear down America and normalize it to the level of even the tin-horn dictators of the world.

You're being untruthful about the "better" issue because I did not say Americas were better. I said America was blessed by God. I can say that America's system is by far better than any other in the world. History proves it whether I say it or not!

That is just a smokescreen. I'm not talking about how satisfied I am here; and I don't think billwald is either. So we can't even point out some flaws without being "unthankful"; yet Paul said that government was from God, and is only a terror to lawbreakers; and the govt. he was talking about was not a Christan one; but rather a godless pagan one that persecuted Christians; yet it is OK to complain about that, and blame it for everything! The stuff done in His name, and that people try to justify it and claim it was His "providence" is painful for Him to hear as well.

Our blessed liberty permits us to be openly critical so you're safe and we should all be thankful for that. Yes, Romans 13 is one of the primary orations of the institution of civil government and what an inspiration it is! It is a double edged message to both the citizen and the "ministers of God's justice". Now, aren't we exceptionally blessed to have a civil government that we own, that we have under limited contract, and that serves its citizens rather than a "godless pagan one" set over us by birthright or victory of conquest? Be thankful, Eric B and Billwald, because what we have is absolutely positively a tremendous blessing given to us by the Lord God Almighty for reasons that serve His intentions? You bet we are!

 

[Eric B]

Again, Eric B, I said nothing about America being a "chosen nation" - those are your words. I said that America has been greatly blessed by the providence of God. You can stop trying to make the connection to Israel now!

But, on the other hand, yes America is unique among nations in its implementation of representative government and that model has since served as a model for others who desire the same benefits of it. You do realize how good - not perfect for it does have flaws and one that is fatal - it is compared to the norm, don't you?

If America has been so specially blessed by the providence of God over all others, by it's "uniqueness", then that sounds to me almost like God's establisment of Israel. Why do you think He did that for us only? God chose and led Israel for a reason, pertaining to his plan in bringing forth Christ. We're after Christ now, and another secular nation consisting of all races; some saved and some not. (The saved are now the only "nation" God is dealing with; a spiritual nation). How does this pertain to God's plan? He said
"it is finished"; and if you're amilennial, you probably don't even believe in all the future prophetic stuff the pre-mils look for.

See my response to Billwald who apparently also believes America is second class. Remember that it is America that brought an end to slavery and established equality for all men regardless of race or ethnicity. That, Eric B and Billwald, still isn't the true of many other places around the world. Remember also that both the Indians and the Africans were themselves engaged in enslaving their own and those of their enemies. Slavery was not invented in or by America - slavery was put to death by America! Stop putting down this great land by your misconceptions of history!

So what's the relevance of this point, Eric B? Is this another conviction of the sins of America? It is impossible for any institution of man to be without sin - even the Church - so America can not have been or be perfect. America did not steal the land from anyone else and that includes the people who lived here before we arrived and who themselves warred amongst each other and those who were here before them.

But ... we didn't "come in and take" as you imply. We bought land, we traded for it, we settled on it where no one lived, we fought for some of it - but we didn't steal it. Do you think the Indians owned and occupied all the land from shore to shore? Do you really think it was all theirs to do with as they wished? We didn't even make that claim!

There was some legitimate trading and selling; but a lot of it was just taking, and then the Indians were wiped out and gathered into reservations.

then, you had some who fought to end slavery; and it was a BIG fight, with "Christians" opposing abolition, and later, desegregation. The whole contry cannot take credit for what only some of them did.

I don't see the slavaery of the Indians of Africans somehow justifies the so-called "Christian" conquerors doing the same thing. Again, they should have known better.

Sin is sin before God and He made that clear many times in the scripture. I by the way, have confessed that I am a murderer, adulterer, thief, and liar - in thought and in deed - so I can claim no superiority to any other man of any time or place. But that has nothing to do with comparing America to a whore - that was a ridiculous, tasteless, and disrespectful comparison. America is no whore among nations!

I haven't said that Americans are better as individuals than anyone else. I've said that Americans have been blessed with greater liberty, prosperity, and peace than others. Why? I don't know except that He say fit to do so. No one deserves any blessing at all. All we deserve is punishment for our rebellion against God. But, for reasons that suit Him - His providence - we've been blessed. Accept that, Eric B, and be happy about it!

You're being untruthful about the "better" issue because I did not say Americas were better. I said America was blessed by God. I can say that America's system is by far better than any other in the world. History proves it whether I say it or not!

But again; you can admit youre a sinner individually; yet collectively is where the debate is. How does a collective of sinners produce such a "good" system? No; what they will produce will be a sinful system; just like everyone else. And comaring it to any other kind of sin is not tasteless. It's how God sees it. If you don;t think so, then go before God and say "wll, at least I never did that".

You are the one placing blame on America! I don't understand your point about "messing up God's system". I just say that God has blessed America by permitting us to enjoy the liberty, prosperity, and peace that we have which many others do not. I give God the full credit for that. I ask you again, if it is not from God then who is it from?

Yes, you say that, and the debate began with the blaming of liberals or the government messing it up. That's what this is all about. You're the one who keept turning it back to personal thankfulness to God for our blessings. That's not what it started as.

You are on the side of the enemy if you take the side of Islam. That's your decision - not mine! Islam is a great threat to us all! Islam most definitely considers themselves to be on the pedestal. You're not up there with them are you?

Where did I ever identify with them and say they or I was better? All I said was that they use the same reasoning as you do, and can cite aspects of "morality" for it. Your projecting your own attitide into that. When you have to resort to this, then you know your argument is over!

You're the one that's segregating people in to a "better" classification.

This is the same argument as above. I'm beginning to think that perhaps you consider yourself better as much as you keep hammering this point when it's not even the issue that contested!

Now, you're flipping. Where do I segregate anyone or say I'm better? You're the one saying some groups or systems are better than others. I'm the one saying NO, all are equally sin; so all you can do now is throw back the charge empty?

I suspect we also we will be "destroyed" if we don't heed His "warnings". The Bible doesn't have a much, if anything to say, about the merits of one form of government over another. It does however validate the purpose of government. The principles of good government - both for leaders and followers - is defined throughout the Bible. Many examples are given of good Kings and bad Kings and the consequences that fell upon them. I don't think there's a literal justification for our particular type of government but, if you take the Bible in its whole and take the history of various governments, you will see that what we have is the best ever devised for having a balance in its structure to provide restraint of wickedness through justice and individual liberty and responsibility for all other institutions to function as well including the Church, the family, and the individual. You know it's true!

And much of your argument is telling me what I know, what I think, and what's "better" for me. So now you admit this form of government is not there; but by comparing, we're still better. That is still a matter of opinion, and you can't universalize it to being some special providence of God without having some biblical proof this is what He really favors.

Baloney! Amillenalism has nothing to do with political policy! It is simply one of three major understandings of end time events - mostly there timing - all of which ultimately end the same. You're way off base to suggest only premillennialists believe only Christ's return can create a better world! Christ's return will be the end of the world as we know it today. He will rule forever after that and none of the things we're arguing about will matter regardless which way the come to pass. But before He comes again we're still here - maybe for a day maybe for centuries to come - and we'd best make the best of what we have, seeking to know and follow His will, and always giving Him the praise and thanks for what "good" things we enjoy.

Nobody's disputing that...

Of course they were not all true Christians - never have been and never will be - because they will always be few in number. But, again, we were blessed to establish a government with law based on Christian principles and by a majority of men who know from whence their blessings came and weren't afraid to acknowledge it.

I wonder iof it was even a "majority". Still, their principles and applications of them were fallible, and thus not above criticism.

 

[Eric B]

It would be wonderful if it could be "put back in its proper perspective" but, Eric B, you're not the man for the job because you don't understand that perspective. We need some real statesmen today like the founding fathers who do understand and can articulate it. You're kind of talk will just tear down America and normalize it to the level of even the tin-horn dictators of the world.

More arrogant "Better than they" talk. And while our system may be better than theirs; when we talk about sin and sinfulness (of individuals and systems), then no; we are no better.

Our blessed liberty permits us to be openly critical so you're safe and we should all be thankful for that. Yes, Romans 13 is one of the primary orations of the institution of civil government and what an inspiration it is! It is a double edged message to both the citizen and the "ministers of God's justice". Now, aren't we exceptionally blessed to have a civil government that we own, that we have under limited contract, and that serves its citizens rather than a "godless pagan one" set over us by birthright or victory of conquest? Be thankful, Eric B and Billwald, because what we have is absolutely positively a tremendous blessing given to us by the Lord God Almighty for reasons that serve His intentions? You bet we are!

Which means, don't criticze it. Just blame socialism for everything, and conclude that the modern government; particularly the "liberals" such as Obama are to blame for everything wrong. We can freely bash them to pieces (and they would be what Rom.13 is talking about). You have it all backwards. WThe next time you or others want to criticize the government; why don't you be thankful and stop criticizing instead?