In the Beginning....

[matt wade]

It matters; it matters a lot.
The first 11 chapters of Genesis sets the foundation of the entire Bible. No portion of Scripture is attacked by the liberals (unbelievers) than this portion of Scripture. When witnessing to another, if one cannot get past the first few verse of Gen.1:1, there is little use of going any further.

"In the beginning God created."
The first four words both asserts and assumes the existence of God. If one doesn't believe in God what use is there in presenting the gospel. Jesus said "Don't cast your pearls before swine." This is the foundation of the Bible--belief in God; belief in a Creator. If one has no belief in a God who has created all things, then he is an atheist. Why go any further.
It matters a lot.

Amen brother! :thumbsup:

 

[Dr. Walter]

I believe in the Gap Theory.

I believe in the "gap" theory also. I believe it exists between the two ears of a person who has not studied the evidence sufficiently.

 

[Dr. Walter]

And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.
Daniel 8:26 AV 1873

The Hebrew used in Daniel 8:14,26 is not the same construction used in Genesis chapter one.

1. Dan. 8:14,26 - "boquer erev" (anathrous construction without "yom" and without conjuctions.

2. Gen. 1:5 "yom hayah erev hayah" (each noun accompanied by conjunction and definite article with the word "day" or "yom")

Please do not cite the Septuitgent as no translation was given by inspiration or can replace the original text.

The context is different. Genesis one refers to creation and applies it to a "day" (yom) whereas the immediate context of Daniel 8 is the "daily" (tamyid) offering consisting of one offering in the morning and another in the evening.

The Hebrew term translated "daily" in Daniel 8 is NEVER used or found in Genesis one but it is the term used to describe the evening and morning in Ex 29:38 translated "continually."

Ex. 29:38 Now this is that which thou shalt offer upon the altar; two lambs of the first year continually.
Ex 29:39 The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning; and the other lamb thou shalt offer at even:

 

[Jedi Knight]

6-24 hr days :jesus:

 

[Dr. Walter]

Daniel 8:14,26 - daily sacrifice

Ex 29:38 ¶ Now this is that which thou shalt offer upon the altar; two lambs of the first year day by day continually [Heb. tamiyd].
Ex 29:39 The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning;[Heb. boqer] and the other lamb thou shalt offer at even: [Heb. ereb]

11 .... by him the daily [tamiyd] sacrifice was taken away....And an host was given him against the daily [tamiyd] sacrifice.....concerning the daily[tamiyd] sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days[/U][ereb boquer] ; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.......26 And the vision of the evening and the morning ][ereb boquer]which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

Genesis 1:5 - "...the evening and the morning" [Heb. "yom hayah erev hayah" (each noun accompanied by conjunction and definite article with the word "day" or "yom")


1. The Hebrew construction is not the same between Genesis 1:5 and Daniel 8:14,16

2. The Hebrew term for "day" [yom] is always used in the Genesis construction but never once in Daniel 8 but rather the Hebrew term "tamiyd" is used repeatedly in Daniel which describes the "daily" offering in Exodus 28:38 translated "continually".

3. Please do not cite the Septuitgent as no translation was given by inspiration or can replace the original text.

4. The immediate preceeding context in Daniel 8 repeatedly tells the reader what the vision is concerning:

"by him the daily [tamiyd] sacrifice"


"against the daily [tamiyd] sacrifice"

"concerning the daily [tamiyd] sacrifice".

5. The immediate following context defines the vision as the "vision of the evening and morning" - v. 26

6. The evening and morning is called the "daily" [tamiyd] sacrifice - Ex. 28:38

7. The issue is taking away this "daily" sacifice and HOW LONG the daily sacrifice would be taken away. 2300 "evening and morning" sacrifices is the duration that the "daily" sacrifice is taken away.

8. This is 1150 evening sacrifices and 1150 morning sacrifices OR 2300 evening and morning sacrifices in duration.

9. This particular Hebrew construction is NEVER ONCE used to describe 24 hours days.

 

[Fred's Wife]

I believe in the "gap" theory also. I believe it exists between the two ears of a person who has not studied the evidence sufficiently.

I agree!

Here's a short article I found on Kent Hovind's website blog:

The Gap Theory Denies the Purpose of the Cross

Dr. Kent Hovind
October 26th, 2010

Without a doubt, the foundation upon which our salvation and hope rests is the substitutionary death of Christ on the cross. God created a perfect, sinless earth and placed upon it a perfect, sinless man. This man, Adam, enjoyed close fellowship with his Creator until he sinned and broke the perfect relationship between God and man. Ever since that time, death and degradation have plagued God’s once-perfect creation, and man has been separated from God. However, the shedding of Christ’s innocent blood on the cross can restore man’s fellowship with God and provide him eternal life. Through Adam’s sin, death entered into the world; but through Christ’s sacrifice, salvation is made possible (Romans 5:19). Therein lies the gap theory’s greatest error, the placement of sin and death prior to the existence of Adam. If death existed prior to Adam’s sin, then how could it be the result of sin?

http://http://www.drdino.com/the-gap-theory-denies-the-purpose-of-the-cross/#comments

 

[BobRyan]

Did God create the universe in 6-24 hr days? Or do some scientist who say Billlions upon Billions of years pull weight? Why do you believe what you believe?

Technically the answer has to be no - because the Bible only says that the earth, sun and moon and all that is in them were created in the literal creation week. 6 days for creation - and the 7th day sanctified as the Sabbath.

But the rest of the universe already existed.

However existence of the rest of the universe does not require that the rest of the universe was in sin, or was suffering death and decay. There is every reason to accept the fact that God created the rest of the universe perfect and sinless prior to the 7 day creation week for this planet.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Technically the answer has to be no - because the Bible only says that the earth, sun and moon and all that is in them were created in the literal creation week. 6 days for creation - and the 7th day sanctified as the Sabbath.

But the rest of the universe already existed.

However existence of the rest of the universe does not require that the rest of the universe was in sin, or was suffering death and decay. There is every reason to accept the fact that God created the rest of the universe perfect and sinless prior to the 7 day creation week for this planet.

in Christ,

Bob

As a matter of fact it does. Sin affected the entire earth and universe. That is why the earth brought forth thorns and thistles as God decreed it would.

That is why Paul said this:
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. (Romans 8:22)
The whole creation is in a state of decay, including the universe, and has been ever since it was created.

 

[R. Lawson]

I believe in the Gap Theory.

Ditto.:thumbs:

 

[Dr. Walter]

There is every reason to accept the fact that God created the rest of the universe perfect and sinless prior to the 7 day creation week for this planet.

There is no evidence that there was a previous perfect creation prior to the 7 day creation recorded in Genesis 1:2. There is evidence against any prior creation.

There is no evidence for a gap theory in Genesis 1:2. God simply created the materials in verse 1 and then gave them form and inhabitants in Genesis 1:2-26.

 

[BobRyan]

Day 4 - God created TWO great lights - not "a zillion and two".

That is the clue that Genesis 1:1 is a general statement about God the creator of all the universe - (sinless and perfect) and Gen 1:2-2:3 is the doctrine on creation of THIS world and TWO great lights (Sun and moon) and ALL life on earth - in a literal 7 day week with the 7th day sanctified by God as the Sabbath, about 6000 years ago.

Thus in Heb 1:2 God is the creator of the "Worlds" KJV not merely this world (Is 45:18). The Angels existed before mankind.

The "gap" in the Bible does not indicate a sinful universe or death in the universe before the creation of earth.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Day 4 - God created TWO great lights - not "a zillion and two".

Your denial of Scripture here is astounding here Bob.
He created two great lights and he made the stars.
What is so difficult about that statement? Why do you have trouble believing it?

 

[Amy.G]

I believe in the "gap" theory also. I believe it exists between the two ears of a person who has not studied the evidence sufficiently.

:laugh:

Can't wait to share that with my pastor who teaches against the gap theory.

 

[Jedi Knight]

My question would be for the "Gap Gang".....how long did it take for a storm to stop when Jesus said "Peace be still"?? How many years did it take for Lazarus to "come forth!" from the tomb when Jesus spoke it? 1,000,000,000 years? Point is that Jesus was doing what he did in the beginning....he spoke and things jumped at his command. This same Jesus whom you claim did it with a GAP spoke it into being in 6 24 hour days back in the beginning....back in Genesis. :type:

 

[Dr. Walter]

Day 4 - God created TWO great lights - not "a zillion and two".

That is the clue that Genesis 1:1 is a general statement about God the creator of all the universe - (sinless and perfect) and Gen 1:2-2:3 is the doctrine on creation of THIS world and TWO great lights (Sun and moon) and ALL life on earth - in a literal 7 day week with the 7th day sanctified by God as the Sabbath, about 6000 years ago.

Thus in Heb 1:2 God is the creator of the "Worlds" KJV not merely this world (Is 45:18). The Angels existed before mankind.

The "gap" in the Bible does not indicate a sinful universe or death in the universe before the creation of earth.

in Christ,

Bob

Genesis 1:1 simply summarizes what God did without explaining how he did it.

Genesis 1:2 is not a gap it is just the raw materials created by God which would be taken and given form and filled with inhabitants beginning from day one to day six. God first creates the materials and then gives them form and fills the void.

Gensis 1:3 is the creation of light, not light sources (moon, stars, sun) but light in transient. Hence, there is no millions of light years for light to reach earth but it is instantly created while the light sources are created later on the fourth day. This is why God can say the "evening and the morning" prior to the light sources being created because light was created in transient. This is why God can say "evening and morning" on day four through day six because even if he had created the light sources on day four they would not have traveled quickly enough on day four, five or six to make the distinction between "evening and morning" on those days. Light was created in transient.

Long billion year periods of "evening" on day three would not allow for plant life to survive to the morning much less to day four.

Hence there is no possible way for the Theistic Evolutionary Big Bang explanation to harmonize with the Scriptures if you extend "evening and mornings" to billions of years to accomodate evolution.

There was no "gap" theory with a previous world of angels in Genesis 1:2 for a very simple reason. Satan did not fall until after the seventh day of creation because God could not look on EVERYTHING he created and pronounce it was "VERY GOOD" if sin, Satan and fallen angels had already occurred and were present in THIS WORLD.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

God created the earth and all life on it - the Sun and the moon (two lights in the sky) in 6 literal days and rested the 7 th literal day "SIX DAYS you shall labor...for in SIX DAYS the Lord made..." Ex 20:11

God also - at some other time created the stars - but not on day 4.

in Christ,

Bob

But, was it "First Creation" or "Recreation"?

The earth existed prior to the Genesis record because for reason not shared with us it was void and without form.

Some people hypothesize that there was a pre-Genesis "creation" that was a part of satan's rebellion and that God wiped it our and recreated earth for Man...

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

I agree!

Here's a short article I found on Kent Hovind's website blog:

The Gap Theory Denies the Purpose of the Cross

Dr. Kent Hovind
October 26th, 2010

Without a doubt, the foundation upon which our salvation and hope rests is the substitutionary death of Christ on the cross. God created a perfect, sinless earth and placed upon it a perfect, sinless man. This man, Adam, enjoyed close fellowship with his Creator until he sinned and broke the perfect relationship between God and man. Ever since that time, death and degradation have plagued God’s once-perfect creation, and man has been separated from God. However, the shedding of Christ’s innocent blood on the cross can restore man’s fellowship with God and provide him eternal life. Through Adam’s sin, death entered into the world; but through Christ’s sacrifice, salvation is made possible (Romans 5:19). Therein lies the gap theory’s greatest error, the placement of sin and death prior to the existence of Adam. If death existed prior to Adam’s sin, then how could it be the result of sin?

http://http://www.drdino.com/the-gap-theory-denies-the-purpose-of-the-cross/#comments

But, that would mean that satan's rebellion came after (Adamic) creation...

Because if satan's rebellion predates (Adamic) creation then sin most assuredly existed prior to Adam.

Granted we aren't given a lot to work with...

But, Salvation does not hinge on there being a "perfect" Earth before Adam...

It hinges on the creation of Man, and God's interaction with His creation.

 

[Deacon]

The Hebrew used in Daniel 8:14,26 is not the same construction used in Genesis chapter one.

1. Dan. 8:14,26 - "boquer erev" (anathrous construction without "yom" and without conjuctions.

2. Gen. 1:5 "yom hayah erev hayah" (each noun accompanied by conjunction and definite article with the word "day" or "yom")

Please do not cite the Septuitgent as no translation was given by inspiration or can replace the original text.

The context is different. Genesis one refers to creation and applies it to a "day" (yom) whereas the immediate context of Daniel 8 is the "daily" (tamyid) offering consisting of one offering in the morning and another in the evening.

The Hebrew term translated "daily" in Daniel 8 is NEVER used or found in Genesis one but it is the term used to describe the evening and morning in Ex 29:38 translated "continually."

Ex. 29:38 Now this is that which thou shalt offer upon the altar; two lambs of the first year continually.
Ex 29:39 The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning; and the other lamb thou shalt offer at even:

I’m trying to keep you honest Walt.
You, yourself provided the peculiar grammatical form,

Originally Posted by Dr. Walter in post #3
If the Bible is its own best interpreter (context) then these are six 24 hour days as this languauge "the evening and the morning" are never used in Scripture for anything other than a 24 hour day period.

Underlining added

It’s true the way it is constructed in Genesis is slightly different but of little consequence.
The point is that when “evening and morning” are used together it can indicate something other than 24 hours. So it’s time to drop this argument.

Tom Bryant noted [in post 16] that the verse alone doesn’t say the time was more than a day.

But if you read the context of the verse [all of Daniel 8] it is quite clear that the time mentioned is longer than a day.

A holy one (in Daniel 8:13) asks the question: “How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?”
(Daniel 8:13 AV 1873).
The answer is in verse 14.
Here the Authorized Version uncharacteristically breaks down a bit.

“And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.”
(Daniel 8:14, AV 1873)

The New American Standard Bible translates it:
“He said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored.”
(Daniel 8:14, NAS)

[A simple Hebrew transliteration of the bolded phrase is: “erev boqer” = “evening morning”
So an even more literal translation could be… ‘For 2,300 evening morning; then the holy place will be properly restored.’

Anyway it is this time period that Daniel 8:26 calls “the evening and the morning”.

The Hebrew term translated "daily" in Daniel 8 is NEVER used or found in Genesis one but it is the term used to describe the evening and morning in Ex 29:38 translated "continually."

IMO an argument from silence is a weak arugment when the phrase itself is so rare.
But I agree that context is king.

Rob

 

[Steadfast Fred]

The earth did not exist prior to the first day of creation. It was created on the first day of creation.

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

'All that in them is' leaves nothing out whatsoever. Even the dirt was created within the six day period (the first day). One cannot say 'such and such existed prior to the six day creation period,' because Scripture declares everything that is in the earth, everything that is in the sea, and everything that is in heaven was created within those six days of creation. There is nothing older than dirt except God, His only begotten Son, and the Holy Ghost.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I’m trying to keep you honest Walt.
You, yourself provided the peculiar grammatical form,

You misinterpreted my statement. I was interpreting the English translation "evening and morning" in the context of the use of "yom" not in any other context. The term "yom" is not found in Daniel 8 and neither is the Hebrew equivilent for evening and morning found in Daniel 8. The Hebrew term "tamiyd" is not found in Genesis one with "yom" or "evening and morning" but is repeatedly found in Daniel 8 and as the descriptive with the "evening" and "morning" sacrifice in Exodus 28:38-39 as well as with what is repeatedly described as the evening and morning sacrifice in Daniel 8:11-14,26. The evening morning is a descriptive of a sacrifice defined contextually as "daily" not some unspecified period of time. The modifers are specific and repeated whereas your position is forced to ignore them completely.

This evidence is irrefutable. You must either ignore or distort but nether changes it.

It’s true the way it is constructed in Genesis is slightly different but of little consequence.
The point is that when “evening and morning” are used together it can indicate something other than 24 hours. So it’s time to drop this argument.

Why should I drop the argument when you are forced to admit that it is not the hebrew structure used in Genesis IN ADDITION to all the evidence presented above. Daniel 8 does offer any proof that "evening morning" exceeds a twenty-four hour day and so what "point" are you talking about! The term "DAILY" is used repeatedly with "evening morning" in Daniel 8:11-14 and so you have FORCE the conclusion that 2300 means any more than either 1100 evenings and 1100 mornings OR 2300 evening mornings in the sense of "DAILY" even mornings. Your arguments are completely bogus - empty and forced.

If my only argument was based on silence you might have a point but when ALL the evidence is considered together your position is simply empty and pointless. The only thing fostering your argument is a theological bias that you must keep alive by forced arguments.