In the Cross, Did God Reconcile ALL Or Just The saved Peoples?

[savedbymercy]

perch:

You do not understand my question I don't think.

I dont think you understand your own question,nor this subject matter..

 

[savedbymercy]

perch:

So they perish because they will not believe?

They will not believe because they are not of Christ Sheep Jn 10:26

26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

And since Christ died for the Sheep, then those who do not believe, Christ did not die for, so being in a condemned state [for their sins], they cannot and will not believe..

 

[Skandelon]

perch:



They will not believe because they are not of Christ Sheep Jn 10:26

26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

And since Christ died for the Sheep, then those who do not believe, Christ did not die for, so being in a condemned state [for their sins], they cannot and will not believe..

You must understand the historical context to understand the intent. There are two folds of sheep. Israel is the first fold and the Gentiles are the second. Most scholars in both camps would agree with this.

Now, of the first fold, Israel, there are a remnant who have been hand selected by God to be given to Christ and trained to be the foundation for the church and take the message of redemption to the world. The rest of Israel is being temporarily hardened (John 12:39). That is why they can't believe. They are being "cut off" from the gospel (Rom 11; Mk 4; Matt 13). So, its not because they are born "totally depraved" that they can't believe and come to Christ, its that they have been blinded from the truth. The other flock which is brought in through faith in the message brought to them by the appointed Jewish apostles will LISTEN. (Acts 28:28)

 

[David Lamb]

There is no question as to why some perish. Jesus clearly states, "whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

Why? Because it requires true faith for true repentance and one will not be forgiven for their unbelief unless they confess it. If someone remains in unbelief their entire lives then they have failed to meet the requirement for salvation...a requirement even Calvinists affirm the need for in salvation, btw.

Thanks for affirming that even Calvinists affirm the need for belief, Skandelon! Some who are not Calvinists seem to think that Calvinism somehow bypasses belief in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast....

well AIC....in post 22 I offered a few sections of scripture,which once again you fail to engage in.....

You are 100% correct.

[I did not even look to see what calvin thought on these verses yet you do not correct my "brainwashed misunderstanding"

Thats exactly correct.

So that leaves us with Jn 3 jn 17 ezk34 jn 6 jn 10 ezk 36 that you would not like to respond to.....interesting AIC.....this is the Debate forum ...
not the coffee shop...yet no scriptural response.....just comment on my mental condition....and then you tell luke the same.....

Correct.

And the reason is because I find it utterly useless to share with you and Luke, because I believe that both of you have been so "calvinized" that you no longer have the ability to discern truth from the scriptures. If you did have proper scriptural discernmet, you would understand the scriptures that prove Calvin wrong, and you would develop an open mind regarding truth that comes from the scriptures, and non/Cal scholors.

As it is now, you...and others, flippantly and arrogantly disregard them as if they were a pack of idiots...when it truth they offer you great wisdom and scriptural truth that *could* help you greatly. (you can lead a horse to water, but you cant..etc etc)

I think you are not able to respond which is okay,although I think you need to re-evaluate where you stand, before you worry about me too much

I am not worried at all regarding where I stand...although I appreciate your concern...but I do worry about you and some others.

Seriously

But I will be content with "casting seeds" and letting God take it from their.

 

[percho]

You must understand the historical context to understand the intent. There are two folds of sheep. Israel is the first fold and the Gentiles are the second. Most scholars in both camps would agree with this.

Now, of the first fold, Israel, there are a remnant who have been hand selected by God to be given to Christ and trained to be the foundation for the church and take the message of redemption to the world. The rest of Israel is being temporarily hardened (John 12:39). That is why they can't believe. They are being "cut off" from the gospel (Rom 11; Mk 4; Matt 13). So, its not because they are born "totally depraved" that they can't believe and come to Christ, its that they have been blinded from the truth. The other flock which is brought in through faith in the message brought to them by the appointed Jewish apostles will LISTEN. (Acts 28:28)

We basically agree. I would disagree who the two fold of sheep are but in the end God will accomplish his purpose through Christ and the two fold of sheep becoming one flock through which the rest of mankind will seek.

Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Acts 15:17 says the same: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

It is the remnant being called presently and that have the scales of blindness removed so they can believe. This is accomplished by the faith of Christ. They are no longer perishing for they are no longer blind.

The purpose of God being: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:

 

[Iconoclast]

AiC

Seriously

But I will be content with "casting seeds" and letting God take it from their

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VrFV5r8cs0

 

[Luke2427]

Thanks for affirming that even Calvinists affirm the need for belief, Skandelon! Some who are not Calvinists seem to think that Calvinism somehow bypasses belief in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Yes, we do. But Skandelon believes that unregenerate man somehow generates faith in himself when hearing the word and in an unregenerate state can turn to God and repent of sin and believe.

That is not the same kind of faith that we believe in.

 

[Aaron]

I answer this in that thread Aaron.

They knew God because they clearly saw and understood his divine attributes and eternal nature, but they were given over to their defiled minds because they "traded the TRUTH (of what they clearly saw and understood) for a lie." In other words, "they perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved." (ref. 2 Thess 2:10) In other words, they choose not to believe in (acknowledge and follow) the one they know and understand.

Define "believe."

 

[Aaron]

Which is sometimes confused by "Calvinistic" members on this board with unconditional salvation. That is what I was pointing out.

The condition is on God. It's His grace. You put the condition on man. It's his choice.

You are the ones who put the cart before the horse, or the smoke before the fire, if you will. You think we are given life (regeneration) in order that we will believe, but scripture says:

John 20:31
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing (fire) you may have life (smoke) in his name.

Adam became a living soul when God breathed the breath of life into his nostrils. It's the same with the new man.

 

[Aaron]

Yes, we do. But Skandelon believes that unregenerate man somehow generates faith in himself when hearing the word and in an unregenerate state can turn to God and repent of sin and believe.

That is not the same kind of faith that we believe in.

That's the inescapable conclusion of any noncalvinistic thought. In fact, man doesn't need to be regenerated, because he is not completely ruined. He just needs a little repair.

 

[savedbymercy]

skan:

Jesus clearly states, "whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

He was speaking of those of His Present Ministry who were not believing, it was because they were condemned in their sins, they had not substitute, so quite naturally they must stand alone and condemned.

But those who Christ died for, even while they are in unbelief and enemies by nature, they are not condemned, they are reconciled to God, they are in His Favor. Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Now you explain how one can be reconciled to God by the death of His Son, and at the same time be Legally condemned by God !

 

[Skandelon]

Now you explain how one can be reconciled to God by the death of His Son, and at the same time be Legally condemned by God !

It's called "provisional atonement" and its consistent with every example of biblical atonement we have throughout scripture. It is atonement that is provided for everyone, but not everyone will accept it.

The snake lifted on the pole in the desert is a good example. It was provided for everyone individual, but only those who looked upon the snake after being bitten would be healed. Thus the means of being saved (atonement) was provided for every person, while every person may not have utilized the provision.

Another example might be if you owed a fine you couldn't afford to pay for a crime you were convicted of and the judge was about to send you to prison when his son stepped forward with the money paying the fine in full. Now, at this point in time your debt is paid in full. But the judge says to you, "Your debt has been paid even though you couldn't have paid it, so all I ask of you is to repent of your crime and thank my son for his gift and you will be free." The provision has been made but the judge requires something of you. You were unable to pay the fine, but there is no reason you can't own up to your mistake and thank the one who paid your debt. You must repent and be thankful to take advantage of the provision. If you refused in your pride and stubbornness the judge can send you away to prison, not because of the original debt, but because of your unwillingness to submit to the terms of the provision. Understand?

 

[savedbymercy]

skan:

It's called "provisional atonement" and its consistent with every example of biblical atonement we have throughout scripture. It is atonement that is provided for everyone, but not everyone will accept it.

Are you going to show us how some can be reconciled to God, not almost reconciled, but reconciled to God by the death of His Son, and be under Legal condemnation at the same time.

The verse says nothing about provisional reconciliation or atonement but actual reconciliation.

The word reconciled is in the past tense and passive voice, its a finished done deal. Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Now do you deny this actual reconciliation that took place while these sinners were enemies ?

 

[Skandelon]

Yes, we do. But Skandelon believes that unregenerate man somehow generates faith in himself when hearing the word and in an unregenerate state can turn to God and repent of sin and believe.

Yeah, we believe the guy has to grunt a moan and push as if making a bowel movement and eventually faith will come forth. :laugh:

Keep working at it Luke, one day you might actually correctly represent us.

You guys make this way too complicated. The truth of God is "CLEARLY SEEN" and "UNDERSTOOD." Men are not born blind to it, as your system presumes, otherwise they would have the perfect excuse. They only become blind AFTER to know the truth, understand the truth, and rebel against the truth. Your system says that can't even know the truth or the spiritual things of God unless first regenerated.

Jesus rebuked his followers and others for their lack of faith. Should he have rebuked himself for not giving it to them?

 

[Skandelon]

The condition is on God. It's His grace. You put the condition on man. It's his choice.

Even Cals believe that men must fulfill the condition of faith in order to be saved. Whether effectually produced through the work of regeneration or not, it is still a condition of the man. You can say you believe in unconditional election and that men will be regenerated unconditionally, but to be consistent you cannot claim that salvation is unconditional.

Adam became a living soul when God breathed the breath of life into his nostrils. It's the same with the new man.

I agree.

 

[Skandelon]

In fact, man doesn't need to be regenerated, because he is not completely ruined. He just needs a little repair.

Attacking straw-men again are we? Here are the words of Arminus himself and any objective reader can see that he doesn't represent mankind in the way you have suggested:

In the state of Primitive Innocence, man had a mind endued with a clear understanding of heavenly light and truth concerning God, and his works and will, as far as was sufficient for the salvation of man and the glory of God; he had a heart imbued with "righteousness and true holiness," and with a true and saving love of good; and powers abundantly qualified or furnished perfectly to fulfill the law which God had imposed on him. This admits easily of proof from the description of the image of God, after which man is said to have been created (Gen. 1:26-27), from the law divinely imposed on him, which had a promise and a threat appended to it (Gen 2:17), and lastly from the analogous restoration of the same image in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 4:24; Col. 3:10).

But man was not so confirmed in this state of innocence as to be incapable of being moved by the representation presented to him of some good (whether it was of an inferior kind and relating to this [natural] life, or of a superior kind and relating to spiritual life), inordinately and unlawfully to look upon it and to desire it, and of his own spontaneous as well as free motion, and through a preposterous desire for that good, to decline from the obedience which had been prescribed to him. Nay, having turned away from the light of his own mind and his Chief Good, which is God, or, at least, having turned towards that Chief Good not in the manner in which he ought to have done, and besides having turned in mind and heart towards an inferior good, he transgressed the command given to him for life. By this foul deed, he precipitated himself from that noble and elevated condition into a state of the deepest infelicity, which is under the Dominion of Sin. . . .

In this state, the Free Will of man towards the True Good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost: And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace.

"For Arminius (and most of his followers), a person must be graced by the Spirit of God in the overcoming of the depraved nature so that the person may be freed to believe in Christ Jesus. If such is accomplished and not resisted, then the person is justified and regenerated. But sinners must be enabled by the Spirit of God because they are totally and utterly depraved, captured and enslaved by sin, and completely undone." -William Birch

The only clarification or specification I add to the historically Arminian view is that God's divine grace works in and through his appointed means alone. That is that the gospel, a work of the Holy Spirit, the very words of God, is the means through which God overcomes the natural state of man's depravity to make appeal for them to be reconciled. The suggestion of Calvinists that this powerful Gospel is just not a significant enough a work of God to bring understanding and light to darkness is biblically unfounded. God's word does not return void.

 

[Aaron]

In one thing you are consistent: no matter what is written or by whom, you will misconstrue it. Here it is summed up: The natural man has the power to save himself, but not without help.

So far from rebutting my description of the noncalvinist position, it anchors it.

 

[Aaron]

I agree.

Really? What did Adam believe before he had breath?

 

[Aaron]

Define "believe."

Skandy, I'll ask you one more time before I spank you soundly and put you to bed on this topic.