In the Cross, Did God Reconcile ALL Or Just The saved Peoples?

[savedbymercy]

That the elects subjective reconciliation is also effected by the Cross of Christ, that's taught here Col 1:21


21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

See, His work of reconciliation is not completed when only Judicial and legal reconciliation are accomplished by His blood, because there still remains the issue of the elect still being unregenerated and in the flesh, but a remedy for that has also been provided by His blood, the legally reconciled receive a new spiritual life from the Holy Spirit, and that new life is reconciled to God subjectively.. Its the New Man that submits to God, not the flesh, for it remains at enmity against God all of our earthly pilgrimage. Through New Birth, they are no more alienated from God in their minds by wicked works, which is dead works as stated Here Heb 9:14

14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Notice again, its by the blood of Christ, their conscience is purged from dead wicked works [false religion] to serve the Living God. Thats subjective reconciliation..

 

[Winman]

It is not a rabbit trail, I have shown you the truth, but you are blinded by your presuppositions. These verses are examples of synergism which is shown throughout the scriptures. The scriptures say God has reconciled himself with man, but then seems to contradict itself by saying we should reconcile ourselves to God. It is not contradiction, this is synergism. I could show you many examples, but for now a few.

James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye doubleminded.

A Calvinist cannot conceive of a sinner being able to draw nigh to God or purify his heart, and yet that is what James tells us to do.

Calvinism says man can do no good unless God gives him a new heart, but what do the scriptures say?

Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed: and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Ezekiel tells us to make our own new heart and spirit. How can this be so?

You see, these are all examples of synergism. If we are willing to turn from sin and desire a new heart, God will provide his power and grace to do so. It takes two.

Jesus said he came to seek lost sinners, yet he also told us to seek, and we shall find.

These are not contradictions, these are examples of synergism. I could show you many more, but you will not allow yourself to see this.

 

[savedbymercy]

win:

It is not a rabbit trail,

Yes it is, you constantly evade the scripture. Dont ask me to show you nothing else from the scripture, all you do is dodge it.

 

[Iconoclast]

winn:



Its not out of context, and of course its speaking to believers, but its what is said to those believers you are ignoring.

Paul says to them, that even while, at the same time, they were being enemies, that is unbelievers and hostile to God by nature, that even then, they had been reconciled to God. How ? Was it by Faith and Repentance ? No, it was solely by the Death of God's Son. Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son,

Now you explain how they were condemned by God while unbelievers, and at the same time reconciled to God by the blood of Christ. If you deny this, you deny the significance of the Cross.

Of course this is correct:thumbs::thumbs::wavey:


Winman you said,

But it takes two to reconcile as Paul points out. By faith we must reach out and shake God's hand to be reconciled.

Winn...this is not the gospel...in fact this is bad news.

[QUOTECalvinism says man can do no good unless God gives him a new heart, but what do the scriptures say?

That evil calvinist Jeremiah said this;

33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

What about David:

10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Maybe he did not know he could create His own heart? Why does he pray for God to do it??

Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed: and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Ezekiel tells us to make our own new heart and spirit. How can this be so?

Ezekiel is God's prophet calling them to repent...thats how. When we tell sinners the need to repent,and they need a new heart...that does not mean they can do it without God. God has to do it. The New heart comes from God because sinners cannot do it][/QUOTE]

 

[Iconoclast]

win:



Yes it is, you constantly evade the scripture. Dont ask me to show you nothing else from the scripture, all you do is dodge it.

Bingo.....we have a winner! SBM....some enjoy the scripture....others have an aversion to it.They prefer to wax philisophical:laugh:

 

[Winman]

Bingo.....we have a winner! SBM....some enjoy the scripture....others have an aversion to it.They prefer to wax philisophical:laugh:

This is laughable, I constantly quote scripture to support my views and you know it. The difference is I don't cherry pick scripture I like and disregard scripture I don't like. You dislike scripture that clearly shows man plays a part in salvation, but it is there and you know it. So you either ignore it or twist words to explain it away. You may fool the simple (and yourself), but not me.

 

[webdog]

Bingo.....we have a winner! SBM....some enjoy the scripture....others have an aversion to it.They prefer to wax philisophical:laugh:

Your ad hominems are anything but funny. Your post was reported as you do this quite often with not as much of an edit

 

[Winman]

Ezekiel is God's prophet calling them to repent...thats how. When we tell sinners the need to repent,and they need a new heart...that does not mean they can do it without God. God has to do it. The New heart comes from God because sinners cannot do it

What you said here is correct, we must repent, that is, turn from our own way to God in dependence.

But that is synergism my friend.

I agree that God initiates salvation. He calls us, but we are required to answer. We do not sit back and do nothing. Here is an example.

Psa 27:8 When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face LORD, will I seek.

There you go, God initiates salvation, but we also play a part. He calls, we must answer.

And this is what I was originally saying concerning reconciliation. Jesus dying on the cross and shedding his blood has satisfied God's justice. He has initiated reconciliation,he has extended his hand in an offer of peace. But Paul begs us to be reconciled to God. We must turn from our own way and take God's hand.

It takes two persons to reconcile.

 

[Skandelon]

SavedByMercy and Iconoclast and Winman,

Your posts have been reported as in violation of the rules. One of you accuses the other of "dodging" the scripture and the other retorts that you "have an aversion to it. They prefer to wax philosophical." And finally another says, "You dislike scripture..."

Can both sides just agree that you all value the scripture but interpret them differently and stop with the insults? I'd rather avoid editing the posts and handing out infractions if possible. But if it continues down this road I'll just close this thread.

 

[savedbymercy]

So the Lord Jesus Christ through His Cross work has been successful in Two Reconciliations, He objectively and legally reconciled all those He died for to God Rom 5:10 and He subjectively reconciled them to God as well, destroying their natural enmity they had against Him Col 1:21 !

 

[Winman]

So the Lord Jesus Christ through His Cross work has been successful in Two Reconciliations, He objectively and legally reconciled all those He died for to God Rom 5:10 and He subjectively reconciled them to God as well, destroying their natural enmity they had against Him Col 1:21 !

Nevertheless, they are still enemies as you have admitted.

This reconcilliation is not complete until the man repents of his self-righteousness and turns to God (repentence) admitting he is unable to save himself and receiving the reconcilliation provided him by God. Only then is man truly reconciled to God.

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of the cross, by him to reconcile all things to himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreprovable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister.

You see, there must be faith on our part to receive this reconcilliation.

You don't seem to grasp that reconcilliation requires at least two persons. Look up the word in a dictionary.

 

[savedbymercy]

win:

Nevertheless, they are still enemies as you have admitted.

Of course I acknowledge that, but they are still legally reconciled to God while enemies, and not under any legal condemnation by God while enemies.

That does not apply to all men without exception, but only for those Christ died for.

 

[Winman]

win:



Of course I acknowledge that, but they are still legally reconciled to God while enemies, and not under any legal condemnation by God while enemies.

That does not apply to all men without exception, but only for those Christ died for.

I disagree, it applies to all men.

2 Cor 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though Christ did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Paul said Jesus was reconciling "the world" unto himself.

How do you interpret "the world" in vs. 20 to mean only a few persons? Especially when Col 1:20 says, "all things".

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of the cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

How can "all things" mean a few, when Paul had said;

For by him were ALL THINGS created- vs. 16

ALL THINGS were created by him, and for him- vs. 16

And he is before ALL THINGS, and by him ALL THINGS consist- vs. 17

That in ALL THINGS he might have the preeminence- vs. 18

So, how in the world (pun intended) do you get the idea that Jesus was only reconciling a few people unto himself?

 

[savedbymercy]

win:

I disagree, it applies to all men.

Sorry, it cant. Some are condemned already Jn 3:

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Now we know that cannot apply to those objectively and legally reconciled to God by the death of His Son , while they are enemies and unbelievers.

 

[Winman]

win:



Sorry, it cant. Some are condemned already Jn 3:

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Now we know that cannot apply to those objectively and legally reconciled to God by the death of His Son , while they are enemies and unbelievers.

What? You've already agreed that the elect were enemies when Christ died for them and that faith is required to receive this reconciliation.

You still don't get that it takes two persons to reconcile. We could be enemies and I could reach out my hand and offer reconciliation to you. But if you refuse and walk away, we remain enemies by your own choice.

Jesus died to reconcile ALL THINGS to himself, this means all men, and deep down I think you know this.

There is no point in debating any more, as obviously we cannot communicate, your definitions of scriptural terms are different than mine. I believe I have proved from Colossians 1 that "all things" in verse 20 taken in context with verses 16, 17, and 18 means all men.

 

[jbh28]

You still don't get that it takes two persons to reconcile.

So salvation is not all of God, it takes something from man for man to be saved. hmmm....

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So salvation is not all of God, it takes something from man for man to be saved. hmmm....

When will you learn....Its the only logical way for it to happen.

 

[Winman]

So salvation is not all of God, it takes something from man for man to be saved. hmmm....

Yes. You have to come to Jesus in faith.

Jn 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

 

[jbh28]

Yes. You have to come to Jesus in faith.

Jn 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

ok, just checking. I believe salvation is all of God. Just wanted you to admit that you believe that you had a part of your salvation.

 

[savedbymercy]

win:

What? You've already agreed that the elect were enemies when Christ died for them and that faith is required to receive this reconciliation.

Yes I agreed that the elect were enemies when Christ died for them, and I pointed out that they were also reconciled to God while enemies. Did I not stress that ?