In what sense did Christ die for all sinners?

[Christforums]

And the biggest symptom of such an error is that you ridicule or downplay the reality of a true "offer" of salvation, given freely to anyone who hears the gospel message. John Bunyan believed himself that a person hearing the gospel message needs to know that they are not excluded from this by the possibility of a limited atonement. And it was Bunyan of whom Owen said he would be willing to travel 50 miles to hear preach.

I agree, the offer is universal, but if I am not mistaken, you're alluding to Justification (atonement)? Sincere question....

Was the offer irrefusable? What must have been missing? I can only suggest regeneration and why some seed falls on good soil and others take no root in or on rocky ground. In other words why is the offer sufficient to some and efficacious towards others?

If the Word itself and that's a big if is isolated from the work of the Spirit in Regeneration, was G-d powerless by the free will of man? If so, that defines the free will of man autonomously rather than by his own strengths or ability. Of course, man doesn't deny or reject regeneration, as Jesus taught in John nobody knows from or to where the wind blows. Regeneration is essentially making the ground fertile. And nobody knows, but in the Scriptures, there were lots that believed otherwise that a certain individual or peoples were NOT receiving the regeneration of the Holy Spirit: from Ninevah to the Samaritans (Gentiles).

Hyper-Calvinism is by definition going beyond what Scripture teaches: Antinomianism: “against the law,” – a theological view that Christians are freed from the obligation to obey God’s law, while hyper-Calvinism is a term used to describe an extreme form of Calvinism that often leads to similar conclusions, such as denying the universal offer of the gospel.

Again, I agree with you said, these things are theological and speaking to the average person we'll talk past each other. Reminds me of the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus. Nicodemus was not uneducated. And that conversation led to Ezekiel 36:25-27 (regeneration). Seemingly, Jesus reminded Nicodemus of the basic necessity of regeneration in the ordo salutis.

 

[JesusFan]

Here, let me help you. Here is every NT verse in ESV containing the word “WRATH”. Just point out where the WRATH of God is owed to the SAINTS or where the WRATH of God is directed against the SON:

[Mat 3:7 ESV] 7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
[Luk 3:7 ESV] 7 He said therefore to the crowds that came out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
[Luk 4:28 ESV] 28 When they heard these things, all in the synagogue were filled with wrath.
[Luk 21:23 ESV] 23 Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people.
[Jhn 3:36 ESV] 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
[Rom 1:18 ESV] 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
[Rom 2:5, 8 ESV] 5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. ... 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
[Rom 3:5 ESV] 5 But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.)
[Rom 4:15 ESV] 15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.
[Rom 5:9 ESV] 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
[Rom 9:22 ESV] 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
[Rom 12:19 ESV] 19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."
[Rom 13:4-5 ESV] 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.
[Eph 2:3 ESV] 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
[Eph 4:31 ESV] 31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.
[Eph 5:6 ESV] 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
[Col 3:6, 8 ESV] 6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming. ... 8 But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth.
[1Th 1:10 ESV] 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
[1Th 2:16 ESV] 16 by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved--so as always to fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them at last!
[1Th 5:9 ESV] 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
[Heb 3:11 ESV] 11 As I swore in my wrath, 'They shall not enter my rest.'"
[Heb 4:3 ESV] 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, "As I swore in my wrath, 'They shall not enter my rest,'" although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.
[Rev 6:16-17 ESV] 16 calling to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"
[Rev 11:18 ESV] 18 The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth."
[Rev 12:12 ESV] 12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!"
[Rev 14:10 ESV] 10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
[Rev 14:19 ESV] 19 So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
[Rev 15:1, 7 ESV] 1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and amazing, seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is finished. ... 7 And one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever,
[Rev 16:1, 19 ESV] 1 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple telling the seven angels, "Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God." ... 19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath.
[Rev 19:15 ESV] 15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.

My issue is that I keep seeing WRATH directed at SINNERS, not at SAINTS. So I keep asking those that keep accusing me of ignoring scripture to POINT to the scripture that I am ignoring, so I can believe, too.

All of the lost before were saved had that stored up wrath and judgement/condemnation towards them by a Holy God, so in Order to allow for God the Father to freely save us, where did that wrath and judgement we incurred to Him go to in order to have Him justify us without violating his own Nature?

 

[JesusFan]

I agree it is not the majority view held by the Reformed or Baptists. The Reform came up with Penal Substitution Theory and many Baptists (not all, but most) adopted it.

The issue remains - your position is not in God's Word.

it is, as that fits the examples given and pointed to us in the OT sacrificial stem and Suffering Servant Isaiah 53, and even in the proto gospel of Genesis chapter 3

 

[JesusFan]

Thanks for putting up those quotes. You do have to be careful saying that the wrath of God is directed against the Son as if God was actually angry at Jesus. But it is sound to believe that what scripture calls "wrath" is a real thing that somehow God keeps track of and stores up, as several of those quotes clearly show.

This is illustrated here where those who are impenitent are storing up wrath for themselves. Several of the other quotes above reinforce this concept. And your question, what about saints and those who do repent?

First of all, is is scripturally sound to say that we all fit into the group storing up wrath until we did repent, as stated above.
The next question, and you see this argument being made, that the early church, and some nowadays believe - that the difference, and only difference is that one group repents and the other does not. The key is repentance or union with Christ and the atonement is all about the "At one ment" received when you join with Christ and repent. They even express this at-one-ment as being illustrated by old testament shedding of blood by saying that the life is in the blood, therefore what was being symbolized in the sacrifice was an offering of atoning life (eventually realized by Christ) which makes us at one so to speak with Christ and our life is in Him. In other words, the shed blood is not a propitiating sacrifice, but an offering of life. And we are offered union with that life. I hadn't thought much of that aspect until I read this from above:

So here we may diverge in that I do not accept that and believe that the blood was shed as symbolizing death of the one who bore the sins of the person who laid his hand on the sacrifice signifying this as such. I don't know that anyone else on here does believe that but just be aware that the idea exists.

"Thanks for putting up those quotes. You do have to be careful saying that the wrath of God is directed against the Son as if God was actually angry at Jesus. But it is sound to believe that what scripture calls "wrath" is a real thing that somehow God keeps track of and stores up, as several of those quotes clearly show."

This is where many despise Penal sustitution, as they somehow see it not being fair to have the Father subject Jesus to "cosmic child abuse", but the truth is both of tjhem agreed to this plan from eternity past, and the Son Lord Jesus agreed to take in full the due penalty owed us for our own sins,

 

[JesusFan]

I agree it is not the majority view held by the Reformed or Baptists. The Reform came up with Penal Substitution Theory and many Baptists (not all, but most) adopted it.

The issue remains - your position is not in God's Word.

We also call what they hold to as being "Pauline Justification"

 

[JesusFan]

Still. Assuming that some do repent and using the above quote to help us agree that indeed God's wrath was actually on all of us until we did repent is it not fair to ask " what then happens to the wrath that was truly on those who repent but no longer is?" What happened to it?

First of all, let's agree that it's Jesus who delivers us from this wrath. Our repentance or faith, though necessary, is not what actively does this - it is Jesus who does this effectively. This very important in answer to some who question penal substitution: I again say, repentance by itself is not said to be sufficient if that was all there was.

The fact is we can repent and be saved because of the effectiveness of his shed blood, without which is no remission of sin, no matter how much we desired to repent or be at one with God.

So. God has promised punishment of sin. We sin. God is on record as claiming to be just. God also claims to forgive sin. Scripture clearly has Jesus bearing our sin, having our sin laid on him.

I'll come back. I might have to head for the basement.

Those rejecting Penal atonement still cannot show where that wrath and condemnation wnt, as we cannot just say God made it now disappear

 

[JesusFan]

For me, “Penal Substitution” is a hard thing to discuss. The issue is that I agree with 90% of what is claimed.

Is there a penalty for sin? Yup, scripture says that,
Did Jesus “become sin” that we might “become righteous”? Yup, scripture says that.
Are we made clean by His blood? Yup, scripture says that.

It is just ONE SMALL POINT that I get stuck on. It is worded in different ways by different people but always centers on the word WRATH. It is typically expressed as “the wrath of God that we deserve was poured out on Jesus in our place”. My issue stems from both an unspoken assumption implied in that view and the lack of specific scriptural support.

The assumption is that God cannot “just forgive”. Somehow justice is claimed to demand its pound of flesh if God is to be able to forgive. On a philosophical level, I have an issue with that because God calls people to a higher standard than he is capable of himself. We are called to just forgive “as we have been forgiven” and to even “love our enemies”, but God cannot forgive a wrong unless SOMEONE is punished for it. Of greater concern is the eisigetical nature of the assumption. You would think that God would have mentioned something that important SOMEWHERE in scripture. However, I can find no verse that affirms that and many verses that speak of God merely “not remembering” their sin.

Then there is the contrary evidence that appears in scripture. God claims that it is WRONG for the innocent to be punished for the guilty. That makes the crucifixion one thing if Christ was put to death by “evil men” to defeat evil itself, but something different if Christ was put to death to appease God as the innocent being punished for the guilty contrary to the Law. There is also the “day of wrath”, which claims wrath is something paid to the guilty at the end after they have refused every chance to be forgiven. Wrath is always described as directed against the sinners, not the saints. Lastly, there is the dichotomy “not judged“ vs “already judged” (John 3) and “vessels of wrath” vs “vessels of honor” (Romans 9) which are different innate classes with different innate fates … but this detail of PSA treats them the same merely assigning the “judged” and “wrath” to another rather than a true “not judged” or “vessel of honor”.

In Ephesians 2:1-4, it speaks of us as WERE among the children of wrath. It does not actually say that God holds a grudge until his ‘pound of flesh’ is paid in full or that every action is still adding to a “wrath account” that must be paid in full.

Some claim objection on the grounds of “cosmic child abuse”. This is not that. This is a desire to accept what is actually said without embracing something so vitally important that is not actually stated anywhere and which is actively contradicted in places. I am uncomfortable building the cornerstone of a doctrine (transferred wrath) on the definition of “propitiation” (Romans 3) and what the sinful crowd killing Jesus “thought” God was doing (Isaiah 53).

God camote forgive a lost sinner until nd unless there was a basis to enable Him to do such, as even if He wanted to freely forgive them, cannot do that without violating his very Holiness, hence why the Cross of Christ and Him being our sin atonement provided for our sake

 

[JesusFan]

A good distinction to observe.

Would anyone claim that Jesus takes our “chastisement” in our place? (The wrath due for our sins post-justification.) Is “chastisement” about JUSTICE or something else?

He took it for pre justified sins and transgressions

 

[JesusFan]

Another way to look at the atonement and propitiation of Jesus is as our Covenant head. He is accountable and responsible as the head of our covenant. Anybody who has served in the military understands this role as Covenant head. Likewise, Jesus does not simply bear the accountability and responsibility but through sanctification we are transformed in holiness.

Which would convey better your actions when disciplining your children @atpollard, do your children experience your wrath or chastisement?

Jesus experience what we would apaert from being saved, so its while we were yet sinners, Jesus died for us per the bible Not for children when at that Cross, but fotr lost sinners

 

[JesusFan]

I 100% agree. For that reason I lean towards what I probably misdefine as “Christus Victor” … Jesus did not need to die to satisfy the wrath of God, but rather, Jesus chose to die to accomplish all those things that scripture clearly states that Jesus DID accomplish: our redemption, victory over sin, victory over death, glory to God, reconciliation, etc.

WRATH is something that remains on those that “reject so great a salvation”, not a debt that Jesus paid to the Father.
JESUS’ death is about God obtaining victory (“Our good and His glory” as the catechism describes it).

Still does not account for how a Holy God can forgive and declare us righteous if our sin obligation still remains in place

 

[JesusFan]

Could you imagine for example, if a General of Armies denied any accountability or responsibility for his troops? This role also extends down to our marriages, as the head of the marriage each man is accountable and responsible (see discourse of Paul on the head of the church the bride of Jesus).

Sanctification goes hand and hand w/ chastisement. To express there is no chastisement is to leave the sinner in a state of sin. Throughout the Psalms David for example continually asks G-d to search him through for inequity and he asks for chastisement. Eliminating chastisement is like sparing the rod and never disciplining our children. And discipline is again something ever soldier can understand.

Christ death was to address the spiritual state of lost sinners not towards saved at that time

 

[JesusFan]

I see that as working exactly the opposite. It is the PRIEST that performs the sacrifice in the OT. Certainly the PREIST kills the lamb. Certainly the lamb sheds its blood. Certainly the blood of the lamb washes away the sin of the sinner.

Does the PRIEST pour his WRATH upon the lamb? Is that really the emotional state of the PRIEST towards the animal? Does he twist the knife so the lamb suffers a little extra, because the PRIEST is really, really upset at that lamb … because of what its owner did?

Yet is that not exactly how PSA presents God’s wrath at the Lamb of God because of our sin?

As I said, I have no objection to anything that scripture claims the blood accomplished, I just call into question “transferred wrath” as the driving motivation.

God the Father used taht lamb as the object lesson of the future lamb of God who would bear in Himself the sins wrath and condemnation due to all of us, as The symbolic transfer of the sins of the people upon that spotless lamb would come to pass for real in coming messiah who would atone for sake of His people, as per Suffering Servant Isaiah 53

 

[atpollard]

All of the lost before were saved had that stored up wrath and judgement/condemnation towards them by a Holy God, so in Order to allow for God the Father to freely save us, where did that wrath and judgement we incurred to Him go to in order to have Him justify us without violating his own Nature?

I presented EVERY verse with the word WRATH.

Which one says what you claim?​

Tradition is not Scripture. Sola Scriptura! We are not Catholic, remember?

 

[atpollard]

Still does not account for how a Holy God can forgive and declare us righteous if our sin obligation still remains in place

Like this ...

Ezekiel 18:5-32 [ESV]
"If a man is righteous and does what is just and right-- if he does not eat upon the mountains or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, does not defile his neighbor's wife or approach a woman in her time of menstrual impurity, does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, commits no robbery, gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment, does not lend at interest or take any profit, withholds his hand from injustice, executes true justice between man and man, walks in my statutes, and keeps my rules by acting faithfully--he is righteous; he shall surely live, declares the Lord GOD.

"If he fathers a son who is violent, a shedder of blood, who does any of these things (though he himself did none of these things), who even eats upon the mountains, defiles his neighbor's wife, oppresses the poor and needy, commits robbery, does not restore the pledge, lifts up his eyes to the idols, commits abomination, lends at interest, and takes profit; shall he then live? He shall not live. He has done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon himself.

"Now suppose this man fathers a son who sees all the sins that his father has done; he sees, and does not do likewise: he does not eat upon the mountains or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, does not defile his neighbor's wife, does not oppress anyone, exacts no pledge, commits no robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment, withholds his hand from iniquity, takes no interest or profit, obeys my rules, and walks in my statutes; he shall not die for his father's iniquity; he shall surely live. As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother, and did what is not good among his people, behold, he shall die for his iniquity.

"Yet you say, 'Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?' When the son has done what is just and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

"But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.

"Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die. Again, when a wicked person turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he shall save his life. Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions that he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' O house of Israel, are my ways not just? Is it not your ways that are not just?

"Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live."

Why do you say: "The way of the Lord is not just" unless forgiveness is first paid for with WRATH?
All I ask is a SCRIPTURE that affirms such a bold claim contrary to Ezekiel 18!

 

[JesusFan]

I presented EVERY verse with the word WRATH.

Which one says what you claim?​

Tradition is not Scripture. Sola Scriptura! We are not Catholic, remember?

God still had to his wrath towards us as lost sinner to be appeased for, so who took that for our sake?

 

[JesusFan]

Like this ...

Ezekiel 18:5-32 [ESV]
"If a man is righteous and does what is just and right-- if he does not eat upon the mountains or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, does not defile his neighbor's wife or approach a woman in her time of menstrual impurity, does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, commits no robbery, gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment, does not lend at interest or take any profit, withholds his hand from injustice, executes true justice between man and man, walks in my statutes, and keeps my rules by acting faithfully--he is righteous; he shall surely live, declares the Lord GOD.

"If he fathers a son who is violent, a shedder of blood, who does any of these things (though he himself did none of these things), who even eats upon the mountains, defiles his neighbor's wife, oppresses the poor and needy, commits robbery, does not restore the pledge, lifts up his eyes to the idols, commits abomination, lends at interest, and takes profit; shall he then live? He shall not live. He has done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon himself.

"Now suppose this man fathers a son who sees all the sins that his father has done; he sees, and does not do likewise: he does not eat upon the mountains or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, does not defile his neighbor's wife, does not oppress anyone, exacts no pledge, commits no robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment, withholds his hand from iniquity, takes no interest or profit, obeys my rules, and walks in my statutes; he shall not die for his father's iniquity; he shall surely live. As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother, and did what is not good among his people, behold, he shall die for his iniquity.

"Yet you say, 'Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?' When the son has done what is just and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

"But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.

"Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die. Again, when a wicked person turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he shall save his life. Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions that he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' O house of Israel, are my ways not just? Is it not your ways that are not just?

"Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live."

Why do you say: "The way of the Lord is not just" unless forgiveness is first paid for with WRATH?
All I ask is a SCRIPTURE that affirms such a bold claim contrary to Ezekiel 18!

Your entire quote concerning unfrt the old Covenant if one is guilty of another's sin in the case of facing capital punishment, and NOTHING to do with spiritual wrath and judgement/condemnation