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From the ends of the earth I call to you, I call as my heart grows faint; lead me to the rock that is higher than I.[Psa. 61:2]

Since you are my rock and my fortress, for the sake of your name lead and guide me.[Psa. 31:3]

Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.[Dan. 2:35]

The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes. The Lord has done it this very day; let us rejoice today and be glad.[Psa. 118:22-24]

Jesus then reiterates Psalms 118 when He stated Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: "'The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes’?[Matt. 21:41,42]

Most anytime a Rock or Stone is referenced, it is referring to Christ. The Rock Moses smote, the Rock that destroyed the terrible image in Nebachadnezzar's dream, the 'Rock which is higher than I', the Stone the builders rejected, &c all speak of Christ.


and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.[1 Cor. 10:4]

 

Christ was not even alive at that time. So we would better say the Son was just as much their God. But they were not aware of this. The idea of worshipping Christ was repugnant to the Jew of Christ's day. In Moses' day one would have been charged with idolatry to worship Christ.

Christ has a beginning in time, and it is at that time men began to believe on His name.

He was only prophesied of in that day.


God bless.

 

But he was not aware that He was speaking to the Son.

That is the point: Christ was not revealed to men until Pentecost. Revealed in Prophecy concerning His coming, but not revealed for Who He truly was.


God bless.

 

That "looking forward" was of a Messiah that was a man, not God manifest in the flesh.

Could you answer his questions?

Here are my answers:

No.

Not as relationship is revealed in the New Testament. Which involves eternal redemption and indwelling.

No. The Spirit in that day came upon men for the purpose of empowerment, but eternal indwelling did not begin until the Comforter began the ministry unique to this Age.

No. Regeneration is the result of the eternal indwelling of God. It is due to His indwelling that we are made able to walk in His statutes and keep His judgments.

Paul makes that clear here:


Titus 3:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


The cleansing of the New Birth coincides with the renewing of the Holy Ghost, which is the renewal of the union between God and man lost through Adam's sin. All men are born separated from God and are in need of reconciliation through Christ.

That is true of all men today, and it was true of the Old Testament Saint, despite the economy.

Geseundheit.


God bless.

 

You now contradict the emphasis of your argument: you are insisting that Christ is the Jehovah (and that is not argued when we view the Eternal, and replace Christ with the Son of God) of the Old Testament, now saying that He isn't.

Nicodemus did speak directly to God, when He spoke with Christ. Abram did speak directly to God, but not to the Person of Christ, as He was yet prophesied to come at that point.


God bless.

 

Misapplication of the meaning of this verse. You were given Scripture that refutes the view that God's immutability applies to how He ministers among men:


Hebrews 1

King James Version (KJV)

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


The "Son" in view is the Christ the Writer will go on to speak about in the rest of the Epistle, and we see here that there is a general identification of God speaking in the past in various ways and times, as contrasted with how He is speaking to men today.

What that means is that God is speaking to men in a different way.

And that is through the Incarnate Christ, Who was born, died, raised again, and returned to Heaven, having sent the Holy Ghost from Heaven (the Comforter).


God bless.

 

So do you ascribe the same salvific nature to those sacrifices?

Were they and all others who offered up animal sacrifice eternally redeemed?

We simply cannot equate the economies of the Old Testament to the New Covenant and the Work of Christ. It diminishes the magnitude of that Work, and salvation itself.


God bless.

 

Peter did not look towards the Cross...he was in opposition to the Gospel of Christ:


Matthew 16:21-23

King James Version (KJV)

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


Matthew 26:73-74

King James Version (KJV)

73 And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech bewrayeth thee.

74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.


John 18:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?



The Christ they all looked towards to was one within their understanding, not the Savior of the World.

To the man the Prophesied Christ was rejected, and the Christ of their own understanding given up hope in...


John 16:29-32

King James Version (KJV)

29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.


Christ questions their "belief" here, and denies it. They think they understand, but this is not a possibility for them, for the Gospel remains, at this point in time...a mystery:


Romans 16:24-26

King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


Imposing into the Hebrew Scriptures that which is not there will result in confusion for the Student as well as those they seek to witness to. The reality of Christ's Ministry to the world in a salvific context was unknown, even to His closest disciples. To try to impose this understanding in the Old Testament Saints contradicts the clear statement of Peter:


1 Peter 1:10-12

King James Version (KJV)

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


The point is that revelation is progressive, and revelation concerning Redemption is progressive.


God bless.

 

You overlook the fact that it was Prophecy, as well as the fact that not one person can be shown to have placed saving faith in Christ's death prior to the Cross. And I would go so far as to say Pentecost.

Sorry, no. Wonderful verse, yes, one of the most important verses we have, but...


Hebrews 11:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.



Hebrews 11:39-40

King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.



They needed to be, after they died...made perfect. The perfection in view is the perfection the writer speaks about in the Book of Hebrews. Here is a reference to perfection:


Hebrews 10:1-4

King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

We see in Hebrews that this perfecting of the Old Testament Saints was accomplished through Christ and associated with the New Covenant...


Hebrews 12:22-24

King James Version (KJV)

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


And just as Chapter Ten makes clear, the perfecting of the sinner, that is, making atonement complete, is also accomplished by Christ:


Hebrews 9:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


That, my friend, is why Christ is called...


Hebrews 12:2

King James Version (KJV)

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.


God bless.

 

It's still a matter of revelation, and revelation's progressive nature. The Old Testament Saints were not made to understand the Mystery of the Gospel, it was hidden from them.

Here...


1 Corinthians 2:6-10

King James Version (KJV)

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


The quote of v.9 is almost always taught from the pulpit as a reference to just how great Heaven is going to be.

That is not what is in view. In view is the Gospel itself, which has been revealed by the Comforter, the Holy Ghost sent down from Heaven.

The simple point Paul makes is that if the princes of this world had understood that Christ's death would do the opposite of what it was intended (silence Christ), they would not have put Christ to death, and in fact Satan would have assigned the greatest security detail this world could possibly know to keep Christ from any harm, so that they could keep him from the Cross.

Aren't we glad that God in His wisdom knew what He was doing in keeping the Gospel a Mystery?


God bless.

 

1) Nobody reads tomes.

2) These verses say straight out, that if the Princes had known the wisdom of God, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory. IOW, had they insight into the wisdom of God, they would have recognized Christ, and not have crucified Him.

All your conjecture concerning "had they known His plan . . ." etc. denies what is written.

 

And Darrell said:

And the difference is??????

 

think about it

 

On the contrary, you see lengthy portions of them quoted in most threads A-millennials are involved in.



But if you mean tombs, I see no relevance to the Mystery of the Gospel and the fact that 2 Corinthians 2 makes it clear this was the Hidden Wisdom of God.

Hmm, seems I have heard that before...

So you are conjecturing as well?

You reiterate my point.

And out of time, have to get going, but will get back to this when able.


God bless.

 

Your point is they didn't discern His plan. The Apostle's point is that they didn't discern His Person.

 

I don't see that as a distinction of merit, nor do I think the text will bear it out:


1 Corinthians 2:5-9

King James Version (KJV)

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:


In view is the "hidden wisdom," also called the Mystery of the Gospel (of Christ, that distinction is made clear in several passages), which is not capable of being divided or having the distinction drawn between His Person and the "Plan."


8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.


The princes of this world did not know the Hidden wisdom.


9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

We cannot make Christ exclusively "the things" which God prepared for them that love Him. The text is usually used to speak of how marvelous Heaven will be, and while that is true, in view is actually the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and all that entails, from His death (which they would have averted had they known), eternal redemption, salvation, glorification, and the Eternal State.

The reason they did not know was because it was Hidden Wisdom, a Mystery, and only revealed through the Spirit, called by Peter the Holy Ghost come down from Heaven:


10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


All divine truth has always been revealed to men by His Spirit (though at times God manifested to man in physical form prior to the Incarnation) but...

...the context is exclusive to Christ and His death, and that was hidden from men until revealed by God through His Spirit:


Romans 16:24-26

King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


1 Peter 1:9-12

King James Version (KJV)

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.



God bless.

 

1) No one reads tomes.

2) Not surprised. It's merit is not diminished by one's lack of perception.

 

Aaron,

Isn't it strange that the pre-trib-dispensationalist claims that the Gospel was a mystery revealed to Paul yet that Apostle tells us:

Galatians 3:6-9
6. Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

 

Sorry, I realized your point later, lol.

Very funny, wise guy, lol.

But, it is not a matter that concerns me, really. Some people do read them, which is seen in the fact that there are usually responses, and sometimes I get the occasional antagonist that is a kindred spirit in detailed response.

I might suggest that because some are a little on the lazy side, and rather than have meaningful discussion which examines the relevant issues in depth, we can understand why some stay on the same forums arguing the same points...for years.

And very little growth occurs.

Hear the writer of Hebrews:


Hebrews 5:10-14

King James Version (KJV)

10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

It's the distinction that lacks merit.

And I showed why I see it that way. Instead of ignoring those points, perhaps you could put a little effort into substantiating your comment.

I would be curious to see how you distinguish between the princes of this world not discerning His Person as opposed to His Plan, and how that invalidates the associated point given that received the dismissal, or, denial.


God bless.

 

Pre-Trib Dispensationalists do not "claim that the Gospel was a mystery revealed to Paul," rather...Scripture makes this clear.

And what does that have to do with...

...?

Would you care to explain what Paul is speaking about if he is not speaking about the Hidden Wisdom of God?

Probably not, because that would take time against your terrorist campaign, wouldn't it, lol.

Address the Scripture, OR:


Romans 16:24-26

King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


God bless.