In which verses does the NIV mess up the meaning?

[Van]

Yes Martin the NIV has "sacrifice of atonement" at Romans 3:25 and "atoning sacrifice" at 1 John 2:2. In Romans 3:25 the Greek refers to the "place of propitiation" or "propitiatory shelter." When God places us spiritually "in Christ" (in the propitiatory shelter) we are propitiated, saved from the wrath of God. Thus Christ as our propitiation is the means of salvation.

 

[Van]

Two more for the list:

1) Mark 1:41 Jesus was indignant should read "moved with anger."
2) Ephesians 2:3 deserving of wrath should read "children of wrath."
3) 2 Thess. 2:13 to be saved should read "for salvation."
4) Titus 3:4 love should read "love for mankind."
5) James 2:5 to be rich in faith should read "yet rich in faith."
6) Rev. 13:8 before should read "from"
7) Rev. 22:21 be with God's people should read "be with all."
8) 1 Timothy 3:16 appeared in the flesh should read "revealed in the flesh."
9) John 1:16 does not seem any more flawed than many other translations, what the text actually says is "And out of His abundance we all also obtained grace against grace."
10) Isaiah 12:3 the omission of the conjunction should read "therefore"
11) 2 Thess. 3:6 who is idle should read "who leads an undisciplined life"
12) Colossians 1:28 the omission of "every man" (or every person) reduces the force of the teaching that the gospel is understandable to every person.
13) Romans 3:25 sacrifice of atonement should read "propitiatory shelter."
14) 1 John 2:2 atoning sacrifice should read "propitiation." ​

 

[Rippon]

Romans 3:25
Sacrifice of atonement :NIV,NRSV, AMP, EXB
Atoning sacrifice : WEB, Mounce, Berean Study Bible
Old NIV foonote : "the one who would turn aside his wrath, taking away sin
Current NIV footnote : The Greek for sacrifice of atonement refers to the
atonement cover on the ark of the covenant (see Lev. 16:15,16).
The 1996 NLT had the following in the text : "For God sent Jesus to take the
punishment for our sins and to satisfy God's anger against us..."

I don't have access to my Modern Language Bible and Norlie New Testament,
but I think both had atoning sacrifice. If anyone here has either translation, they
may chime in.
______________________________________________________________
1 John 2:2
NIV, WEB, Berean Study Bible, ISV, NET, Weymouth, EXB, ISV, MEV, NRSV : atoning sacrifice
Again, the Norlie and MLB may also have atoning sacrifice.

There is nothing sacred about using "propitiation" as the only word that shall be used in these two passages. There are alternatives. I like the 1996 NLT's rendering best.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I once heard John Piper say that if your Bible doesn't have 'propitiation' at Rom. 3:25 and 1 John 2:2, you should change your Bible version.

 

[Rippon]

I once heard John Piper say that if your Bible doesn't have 'propitiation' at Rom. 3:25 and 1 John 2:2, you should change your Bible version.

I like John Piper a lot, but he says dumb things sometimes. Even Wayne Grudem, as anti-NIV as it gets had to rebuke Piper on one occasion for going too extreme.

 

[McCree79]

I like John Piper a lot, but he says dumb things sometimes. Even Wayne Grudem, as anti-NIV as it gets had to rebuke Piper on one occasion for going too extreme.

Yes, they have disagreed drastically a few times. I love reading the letters between Grudem and Piper. They are the model for respectable debates in my opinion.

Sent from my LGLS990 using Tapatalk

 

[Rippon]

Mark 1:41 Jesus was indignant should read "moved with anger."
​

Hmm...going against your hero Dr. Wallace there, as well as Dr. Mounce.

Romans 3:25 sacrifice of atonement should read "propitiatory shelter."

Not a single version has the wording. I doubt with your lack of knowledge you could advise any translator of your position. But go for it Van.

14) 1 John 2:2 atoning sacrifice should read "propitiation."

Because you say so? Your very own WEB translation that you extoll so often, doesn't have the rendering of 'propitiation' there.​

 

[Rippon]

I once heard John Piper say that if your Bible doesn't have 'propitiation' at Rom. 3:25 and 1 John 2:2, you should change your Bible version.

I once heard that bumblebees should not be able to fly. That's just as wacky. JP used the RSV for 37 years. It has "expiation" in Romans 3:25 and 1 John 2:2. That, in a word is inconsistent thinking. Besides, one doesn't drop a translation over a particular wording in two verses --that's lame of JP.

 

[robustheologian]

Not a single version has the wording. I doubt with your lack of knowledge you could advise any translator of your position. But go for it Van.

But isn't Van supposed to be an expert at the ancient Greek language?? Whistling

 

[Rippon]

But isn't Van supposed to be an expert at the ancient Greek language?? Whistling

You've heard the phrase :"He's a legend in his own mind."

 

[Van]

I see several personal rather than topical posts, a stream of forum rule violations. Lets see, about 7 translations were listed that did not refer to propitiation. Thus a minority, while the majority of translations do refer to propitiation at Romans 3:25.

No, propitiation is not a sacred word, but neither is sacrifice. But they are not interchangeable if correspondence and accuracy matter. The Greek word "thysia" means sacrifice, a different word than the Greek word group translated as related to propitiation.

When God places us spiritually "in Christ" (in the propitiatory shelter) we are propitiated, saved from the wrath of God. Thus Christ as our propitiation is the means of salvation.

 

[agedman]

When God places us spiritually "in Christ" (in the propitiatory shelter) we are propitiated, saved from the wrath of God. Thus Christ as our propitiation is the means of salvation.

Oh, I wish you hadn't posted this.

Would you please show me the verse that states, "Christ as our propitiation is the means of salvation?"

And be oh so careful, for the word used in 1 John is a different form that any used elsewhere in the NT. Christ is the blood sacrifice (propitiation) for all sin, is not the "means of salvation."

Hebrews and Romans uses propitiation in the sense of God is appeased just as in the OT the blood sprinkled upon the ark covering had to be done yearly. But again, the word is not used as a "means of salvation."

Therefore, it is necessary that you show scriptural evidence that "Christ as our propitiation is the means of salvation."

 

[Van]

Hi Agedman. How are we saved from the wrath of God? By being propitiated! What is our propitiation? Christ is our propitiation! This is obvious. Christ as our propitiation is the means of our salvation!"

1) Christ is the means of our salvation. No one come to the Father except through Me!
2) Christ, He Himself, is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

 

[Van]

1) Mark 1:41 Jesus was indignant should read "moved with anger."
2) Ephesians 2:3 deserving of wrath should read "children of wrath."
3) 2 Thess. 2:13 to be saved should read "for salvation."
4) Titus 3:4 love should read "love for mankind."
5) James 2:5 to be rich in faith should read "yet rich in faith."
6) Rev. 13:8 before should read "from"
7) Rev. 22:21 be with God's people should read "be with all."
8) 1 Timothy 3:16 appeared in the flesh should read "revealed in the flesh."
9) John 1:16 does not seem any more flawed than many other translations, what the text actually says is "And out of His abundance we all also obtained grace against grace."
10) Isaiah 12:3 the omission of the conjunction should read "therefore"
11) 2 Thess. 3:6 who is idle should read "who leads an undisciplined life"
12) Colossians 1:28 the omission of "every man" (or every person) reduces the force of the teaching that the gospel is understandable to every person.
13) Romans 3:25 sacrifice of atonement should read "propitiatory shelter."
14) 1 John 2:2 atoning sacrifice should read "propitiation."
15) 1 John 4:10 atoning sacrifice should read "propitiation."
16) Hebrews 10:14 sacrifice should read "offering."​

 

[Rippon]

Lets see, about 7 translations were listed that did not refer to propitiation.

No, about a dozen versions do not use the word in Ro.3:25 and 1 Jn.2:2.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Hi Agedman. How are we saved from the wrath of God? By being propitiated!

Aaargh! We are not propitiated! God is the outraged party. It is He who must be propitiated for our sins, so that He may be just and the justifier of him who believes in Jesus (Rom. 3:26).

'And on that cross, as Jesus died,
The wrath of God was satisfied-
For every sin on Him was laid;
Here in the death of Christ I live.'

 

[Van]

No, about a dozen versions do not use the word in Ro.3:25 and 1 Jn.2:2.

Lets see, 18 translations do not use atoning sacrifice in 1 John 2:2 13 of them us propitiation. And on biblehub, I count 6 using "atoning sacrifice." Thus a majority of translations on biblehub for 1 John 2:2 think propitiation better presents the actual text. Again, the Greek word for sacrifice is not found.

 

[Van]

Aaargh! We are not propitiated! God is the outraged party. It is He who must be propitiated for our sins, so that He may be just and the justifier of him who believes in Jesus (Rom. 3:26).

'And on that cross, as Jesus died,
The wrath of God was satisfied-
For every sin on Him was laid;
Here in the death of Christ I live.'

You point does not alter the position. God's wrath does not fall on those God has placed "in Christ."

How are we saved from the wrath of God? By God being propitiated concerning our sin burden. What is our propitiation? Christ is our propitiation! This is obvious. Christ as our propitiation is the means of our salvation!"

1) Christ is the means of our salvation. No one come to the Father except through Me!
2) Christ, He Himself, is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Those that deny Christ is our propitiation, our means of salvation are mistaken.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You point does not alter the position. God's wrath does not fall on those God has placed "in Christ."

How are we saved from the wrath of God? By God being propitiated concerning our sin burden. What is our propitiation? Christ is our propitiation! This is obvious. Christ as our propitiation is the means of our salvation!"

1) Christ is the means of our salvation. No one come to the Father except through Me!
2) Christ, He Himself, is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Those that deny Christ is our propitiation, our means of salvation are mistaken.

I don't want to derail the thread any further, but Agedman is quite correct. The Lord Jesus is never described in the Bible as our 'means of salvation.' He is our Saviour.

 

[Rippon]

Some of Van's favorite versions just do not listen to him!

In Romans 5:25 the WEB has "sacrifice of atonement"

In 1 John 2:2 the NET has "atoning sacrifice"

Part of the NET note for this reference says:"The term propitiation' is too technical to communicate to many modern readers, and a term like 'atoning sacrifice'...is more appropriate here."