Indiana GOP Leaders Shocked Their 'Religious Freedom' Law Is Seen As Anti-Gay

[Zaac]

My dislike of Cubans?

A person should not be compelled to cater a Clinton event or a gay wedding or a Planned Parenthood function.

Ain't nobody compelling you or anyone else to do anything. If you don't want to do it, get out of the business of providing a service to people and being paid using government printed money.

 

[Don]

Ain't nobody compelling you or anyone else to do anything. If you don't want to do it, get out of the business of providing a service to people and being paid using government printed money.

Freedom of religion does not mean giving up your freedom simply because you own a business.

Zaac, you need to take a step back. There are people out there wanting to take a stand and call sin "sin"; but your statements here support the ones who want to call evil "good," and force Christians to call it "good."

 

[Alcott]

Ain't nobody compelling you or anyone else to do anything. If you don't want to do it, get out of the business of providing a service to people and being paid using government printed money.

So I can go to a Jewish-owned delicatessen and order a ham sandwich, and if they tell me only handle kosher meats, they have to get out of business? After all, it's government money I'd be offering them, and they can't limit the scope of their products because of their own beliefs.... can they?

 

[Crabtownboy]

So I can go to a Jewish-owned delicatessen and order a ham sandwich, and if they tell me only handle kosher meats, they have to get out of business? After all, it's government money I'd be offering them, and they can't limit the scope of their products because of their own beliefs.... can they?

The Jewish deli might not carry ham. But they would serve you a good alternative sandwich.

I would not go into an Apple store expecting to buy a Windows based computer.

I would not go into a Safeway grocery store expecting to buy a Trader Joe's specialty item.

There is a difference between carrying a product and giving service.

 

[Don]

The Jewish deli might not carry ham. But they would serve you a good alternative sandwich.

I would not go into an Apple store expecting to buy a Windows based computer.

I would not go into a Safeway grocery store expecting to buy a Trader Joe's specialty item.

There is a difference between carrying a product and giving service.

You're in error. Making a cake is providing a product AND a service -- just like making a sandwich.

So try answering Alcott again.

 

[Zaac]

So I can go to a Jewish-owned delicatessen and order a ham sandwich, and if they tell me only handle kosher meats, they have to get out of business?

What for? They are not discriminating against you. They don't serve ANYONE ham sandwiches.

After all, it's government money I'd be offering them, and they can't limit the scope of their products because of their own beliefs.... can they?

They can limit what they offer all they want if they are limiting it to everyone.

If they are in business in the United States and , for instance, they are in NYC using ham bought in Mississippi and shipped to them, interstate commerce can be used by the government to say you can't tell your customers that you will serve ham sandwiches to black people but not to white people.

But again, your example is moot because they are treating everyone the same.

 

[Zaac]

You're in error. Making a cake is providing a product AND a service -- just like making a sandwich.

So try answering Alcott again.

But there is still no discrimination taking place in Alcott's example. Everyone is being treated the same. The deli isn't serving ANYONE ham sandwiches.

 

[Crabtownboy]

You're in error. Making a cake is providing a product AND a service -- just like making a sandwich.

So try answering Alcott again.

You miss the point. If a store does not carry a product it cannot be expected to serve that product. It can give an alternative product that it does carry and thus it gives both a different product and does provide service.

You would not go to a car dealers expecting to buy celery. You would not go to a grocery store expecting to buy an automobile.

I would not go to a vegetarian store expecting to buy meat.

I would not go to a kosher deli expecting to buy any pork product.

 

[Revmitchell]

You miss the point. If a store does not carry a product it cannot be expected to serve that product. It can give an alternative product that it does carry and thus it gives both a different product and does provide service.

You would not go to a car dealers expecting to buy celery. You would not go to a grocery store expecting to buy an automobile.

I would not go to a vegetarian store expecting to buy meat.

I would not go to a kosher deli expecting to buy any pork product.

I have to agree with crabby here.

 

[Don]

You miss the point. If a store does not carry a product it cannot be expected to serve that product. It can give an alternative product that it does carry and thus it gives both a different product and does provide service.

You would not go to a car dealers expecting to buy celery. You would not go to a grocery store expecting to buy an automobile.

I would not go to a vegetarian store expecting to buy meat.

I would not go to a kosher deli expecting to buy any pork product.

You missed Alcott's point. The analogy is someone going into a kosher deli and demanding that they be given ham, because otherwise the deli owner is forcing their beliefs on them. "We don't serve anyone ham" means that I can't expect the same service as would be provided at a store that serves both kosher and non-kosher.

If we're gonna cater to one, we should cater to all. Isn't that the mantra that's being used to support the government's "right" to force Christians to compromise their beliefs?

 

[Zaac]

You missed Alcott's point. The analogy is someone going into a kosher deli and demanding that they be given ham, because otherwise the deli owner is forcing their beliefs on them. "We don't serve anyone ham" means that I can't expect the same service as would be provided at a store that serves both kosher and non-kosher.

If we're gonna cater to one, we should cater to all. Isn't that the mantra that's being used to support the government's "right" to force Christians to compromise their beliefs?

Don people in business just have to be smart about this. It's a bad business practice to discriminate PERIOD.

But if you're gonna choose to "not serve a group of people", be consistent.

If you don't want to bake cakes for a gay wedding or don't want to cater a gay wedding, make it clear that for religious purposes, I don't provide cakes or catering for non-Biblical weddings or anything else that does not honor and uplift the name of Jesus. THAT is covered by religious freedom because it's in line with keeping with your religious beliefs without discriminating against a group of people.

But you've got to be consistent. You can't refuse the gay wedding but then turn around and do the cake for the barmitzvah.

If you say you've got a belief, then practice it.

But it's silly to say I won't bake a gay wedding cake if you're still baking cakes for adulterers and every other type sinner.

If your policy is that you don't bake cakes for people practicing sin, then say so and treat all of those folks the same.

You'll probably end up just going out of business. And that in itself should alert Christians that there is probably a different way to handle these situations.

 

[Crabtownboy]

You missed Alcott's point. The analogy is someone going into a kosher deli and demanding that they be given ham, because otherwise the deli owner is forcing their beliefs on them. "We don't serve anyone ham" means that I can't expect the same service as would be provided at a store that serves both kosher and non-kosher.

Of course they would not both serve the same thing.

Are you saying a kosher deli should be required to serve non-kosher foods?

If we're gonna cater to one, we should cater to all. Isn't that the mantra that's being used to support the government's "right" to force Christians to compromise their beliefs?

Yes, cater both, but don't expect both to carry everything you might desire.

If you are demanding everything, then in states where it is legal you are arguing that Chic-Fil-A should carry beer as you might want a beer. After al they serve drinks.

Where would this nonsense end?

 

[church mouse guy]

One should not have to cater to pedophiles or the Clintons.

 

[Alcott]

They can limit what they offer all they want if they are limiting it to everyone.

Then they can limit the wedding cakes they make to having a bride and groom decor-- you know, those little people on top-- and those are the only kind they make and sell. How's that?

But again, your example is moot because they are treating everyone the same.

If a Jewish caterer is asked to serve a big Nazi bash, and refuses to do so, that's not treating everyone the same. So can it legally be done?

 

[Zaac]

Then they can limit the wedding cakes they make to having a bride and groom decor-- you know, those little people on top-- and those are the only kind they make and sell. How's that?

That's fine if that's all they offer to everyone. If all wedding cakes come with a little bride and groom on top, and that's how I make every wedding cake, then it's not discrimination to say I don't make wedding cakes with two little men or two little ladies on top.

If they want to buy the little people and stick them on top themselves, have at it. But I don't sell the cakes like that for ANYONE.

If a Jewish caterer is asked to serve a big Nazi bash, and refuses to do so, that's not treating everyone the same. So can it legally be done?

Does the Jewish caterer reject all bashes for folks who hate him?

 

[Salty]

I have to agree with crabby here.

Wont miracles ever cease!

 

[Zaac]

Wont miracles ever cease!

:laugh: Jesus IS the worker of miracles.

 

[church mouse guy]

Gays should go to Jews with their problems because Democrats should stick together.

 

[Zaac]

Gays should go to Jews with their problems because Democrats should stick together.

So I wonder what your excuse will be for sticking with him in the GOP?

 

[church mouse guy]

You are the one who would bake a cake for him.