Thanks for an accurate if ambiguous answer. And note no rebuttal for all the verses that demonstrate the election of Ephesians 1:4 was corporate...
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Individual Election Revisited
- Thread starter Van
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From the foundation of the world refers to the time span from the creation week to the end of the age, and thus includes the time being.
You are "taking" an incorrect meaning. The word used means "to drag" or "to draw", it does not mean "to invite." Remember that a person in crisis, in dire need of salvation, cannot be saved by an invitation. They must be saved by the extraction team dragging or drawing them out of crisis by the extraction team. We ought to see ourselves as one who is so incapacitated by our sin that salvation can only happen if God chooses to extract us from our sin by dragging/drawing us out of our dire situation. Any imagination that we can "help" God extract us is a prideful imagination that views ourself as better than we are.
AN ELECTION OF PARTICULAR PERSONS
Reformed and Revised According to Scripture
THE GRAND DOCTRINE OPENED
That all the saints of God, and sheep of Jesus Christ, have been saved, and none of them shall fall away because they have eternal life.
The truth of this point I shall prove by diverse arguments and scriptures.
And my first argument shall be taken from eternal election, which depends wholly upon the absolute sovereignty of God, who has power over all His creation, and may do with His own as it seems good in His eternal wisdom, and good pleasure of His will.
I shall premise one or two things before I proceed to confirm this argument.
1. That God set up Jesus Christ as Mediator from everlasting, as the Head and Spring of our election; therefore it is said, We were chosen [corporately] in him before the foundation of the world. When God chose the Second Person of the Trinity to be His Redeemer, His Lamb of God, He also in effect chose corporately all those His Redeemer would redeem. (Ephesians 1:4)
2. That all the ways which were ordered in the wisdom of God, for the accomplishing the ends of election, are of the Father’s appointment also; for whatsoever Christ has done in working out our Redemption, it was according to the purpose and determinate counsel of the Father’s will and sovereign goodness. Jesus Christ was first chosen, thus elected, by the Father, as Head and Mediator, and only Foundation to bear up the whole building, which the Almighty designed to raise: The Father’s love, did precede Christ’s glorious mission; therefore He was of the Father’s designation; “Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last days” (I Pet. 1:20). Christ was first chosen as the Well-head of grace and glory, and then others were chosen and placed within Him, thus redeemed and raised to a state of grace and holiness here, and to eternal happiness in Heaven hereafter: “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.” (Rom. 8:29). Predestined to the image of His Son, that is, to Christ’s likeness as Humble Servant, and to our striving to conform our behavior to Christ’s sinless behavior. Now this Conformity being absolutely designed in election, Christ, in the contrivance and intention of the Father, was the first Exemplar and Copy of it, and the main Center, to which all must be brought that were placed spiritually within Him. The Father setting Him up, and electing Him as Head of all the saved, or as the glorious Bridegroom, and therefore it was requisite He should be consulted about those who were to be the members of His body, and His own blessed spouse forever. And since Christ was also to suffer and undergo such pain and sorrow in the purchasing and redeeming of them, it was necessary He should not only freely assent and consent in the choice of them, but also be certain of the obtaining and securing them all to and for Himself forever,
To proceed, it may not be amiss to consider what is contained in the bowels of my first argument, viz. that there is a peculiar people, thus some certain persons (as personally considered) of the lost children of the first Adam, who are elected thus chosen of God, and placed within Christ, from when their faith was credited as righteousness, of His own sovereign grace and good pleasure, ordained unto everlasting life; and that this individual election does prevent their final falling, or make it impossible that any of them should ever so apostatize as eternally to perish.
The Argument being thus fairly stated, it calls upon me to do two things.
First, To prove that there is such a particular and personal election of a peculiar people of the lost sons of Adam.
Secondly, To show how this prevents their final falling, and makes it impossible that any of them should ever so apostatize as eternally to perish.
A little to open the first of these.
1. I say of peculiar persons, which denotes it belonging to them only and to none else; others are passed by, or not afforded by any such divine act of grace the like privilege: they are God’s jewels, thus His peculiar treasure, though until called and chosen and cleansed (Mal. 3:17), their inward filth and pollution purged away, they could not be delighted in by Him, or be loved as a family member, but only loved with a love of good Will, for the purpose of grace and benevolence.
I say personally elected; that is, the objects of this grace, or of this election were singled out and pitched upon by name; not unconditionally but with respect to being chosen by reason of their faith in Christ, the Head of Election, that they believed and were committed to repentance and “should be holy and without blame before him in love” (Eph. 1:4). They are chosen that they may be holy; not because they were holy, or God foresaw they would make themselves holy.
I say, once individually chosen, they were ordained to everlasting life. Now to predestinate, decree, or ordain, denotes the same thing, and signifies the absolute purpose of God to bring them into a state of grace spiritually, within Jesus Christ, and to eternal glory and happiness hereafter: Hence it is said, “As many as accepted God’s direction to eternal life, believed, thus were appointed by mutual consent and thus their salvation was in accordance with His Redemption plan.
They were “chosen and placed in Christ”, that they standing might be secured through their union with Him, and made righteous by the washing of regeneration, according to God’s eternal purpose.
2. Now that all men may know that conditional election by reason of credited faith of existing individuals is the gospel, Paul says “chosen … for salvation… by reason of faith in the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:13)
Moreover, in the New Testament that our Savior calls His disciples by name and tells them, that “he knew whom he had chosen,” (John 13:18) excluding Judas; He must therefore intend their eternal election, for as I said before, Judas was chosen to the Apostleship: also Paul by name. Jesus Christ declares (to Ananias) was “a chosen vessel” not only as an Apostle, but one also comprehended in the election of grace. Do but observe the Nature of his conversion, and what he was before and when called by the special grace of God.
So much shall serve to prove that there is an election of particular persons, based on crediting their faith in Christ as righteousness, (Romans 4:4-5, Romans 4:23-24).
Object. But may be some will Object, If this be so, what need any man concern himself about his salvation, as to seek it or labor after it: for if he be elected, he shall be saved; but if not, let him do what he can, he cannot be saved, he cannot frustrate God’s acceptance or rejection, nor alter the Redemption mechanism that is Jesus Christ.
Answer. I answer, All mankind are under the strongest obligation imaginable to God, as He is their Creator, and they His creatures; as He is their only Lord and Supreme Governor, they are bound to fear Him, and obey His laws, let Him do what He will with them.
3. God has ordained the means, as well as the end result, Men are not only elected to salvation, but also to resulting sanctification and holiness.
4. Men ought to endeavor to believe and repent, thus embrace the gospel of Christ. (John 3:16)
5. God opposes the proud, those unwilling to trust only in Christ and lean not on their own understanding.
6. Whosoever therefore that does neglect the means God hath appointed, in order to the obtaining the end, let it be what it will, should they reject God, and comply with the Devil? May it never be.
7. No decree of God necessitates men to sin: for though the free grace of God is the absolute cause of election based on God crediting our faith as righteousness; yet wickedness, unbelief and disobedience is the procuring cause of the reprobation (Jude 4) and of the damnation of them that perish: “O Israel, you have destroyed yourself, but in me is your help” (Hos. 13:9).
8. Were any ever damned that did what they could in the use of all means under the light of the gospel, to be saved? Brethren, God will condemn men for their not improving their “one talent.” Nor will it be a good plea for such to say, “I knew thou were an hard man, reaping where you have not sown,” (Matt. 25:24) Is He unjust in giving grace to some, because He does not bestow it upon all? Had He not took hold of a few, the whole lump of mankind would have destroyed themselves, and none would have been saved. Was God unjust in electing some of the Angels, because He passed by others of them?
9. In the day of judgment, God will be just, and all men’s mouths shall be stopped: This you may assure your selves of, “He will be justified when he judges, and clear when he condemns? (Ps. 51:4). He that had not on the wedding-garment was speechless. God will not then proceed with men upon election and reprobation, but upon their believing, or not believing?He will render to every man according to their works? (Rom. 2:6). All men’s mouths shall be stopped, and every man’s conscience witness against him. Alas, men who do not act or exercise their human faith in respect of the report of the gospel, which they do in respect of other matters and things that are made known to them, or do not bring forth the fruit of such an historical faith, face God’s justice.
(Based on the valid parts of "A Golden Mine Opened" pp. 169-175, 1694 edition)
Reformed and Revised According to Scripture
THE GRAND DOCTRINE OPENED
That all the saints of God, and sheep of Jesus Christ, have been saved, and none of them shall fall away because they have eternal life.
The truth of this point I shall prove by diverse arguments and scriptures.
And my first argument shall be taken from eternal election, which depends wholly upon the absolute sovereignty of God, who has power over all His creation, and may do with His own as it seems good in His eternal wisdom, and good pleasure of His will.
I shall premise one or two things before I proceed to confirm this argument.
1. That God set up Jesus Christ as Mediator from everlasting, as the Head and Spring of our election; therefore it is said, We were chosen [corporately] in him before the foundation of the world. When God chose the Second Person of the Trinity to be His Redeemer, His Lamb of God, He also in effect chose corporately all those His Redeemer would redeem. (Ephesians 1:4)
2. That all the ways which were ordered in the wisdom of God, for the accomplishing the ends of election, are of the Father’s appointment also; for whatsoever Christ has done in working out our Redemption, it was according to the purpose and determinate counsel of the Father’s will and sovereign goodness. Jesus Christ was first chosen, thus elected, by the Father, as Head and Mediator, and only Foundation to bear up the whole building, which the Almighty designed to raise: The Father’s love, did precede Christ’s glorious mission; therefore He was of the Father’s designation; “Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last days” (I Pet. 1:20). Christ was first chosen as the Well-head of grace and glory, and then others were chosen and placed within Him, thus redeemed and raised to a state of grace and holiness here, and to eternal happiness in Heaven hereafter: “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.” (Rom. 8:29). Predestined to the image of His Son, that is, to Christ’s likeness as Humble Servant, and to our striving to conform our behavior to Christ’s sinless behavior. Now this Conformity being absolutely designed in election, Christ, in the contrivance and intention of the Father, was the first Exemplar and Copy of it, and the main Center, to which all must be brought that were placed spiritually within Him. The Father setting Him up, and electing Him as Head of all the saved, or as the glorious Bridegroom, and therefore it was requisite He should be consulted about those who were to be the members of His body, and His own blessed spouse forever. And since Christ was also to suffer and undergo such pain and sorrow in the purchasing and redeeming of them, it was necessary He should not only freely assent and consent in the choice of them, but also be certain of the obtaining and securing them all to and for Himself forever,
To proceed, it may not be amiss to consider what is contained in the bowels of my first argument, viz. that there is a peculiar people, thus some certain persons (as personally considered) of the lost children of the first Adam, who are elected thus chosen of God, and placed within Christ, from when their faith was credited as righteousness, of His own sovereign grace and good pleasure, ordained unto everlasting life; and that this individual election does prevent their final falling, or make it impossible that any of them should ever so apostatize as eternally to perish.
The Argument being thus fairly stated, it calls upon me to do two things.
First, To prove that there is such a particular and personal election of a peculiar people of the lost sons of Adam.
Secondly, To show how this prevents their final falling, and makes it impossible that any of them should ever so apostatize as eternally to perish.
A little to open the first of these.
1. I say of peculiar persons, which denotes it belonging to them only and to none else; others are passed by, or not afforded by any such divine act of grace the like privilege: they are God’s jewels, thus His peculiar treasure, though until called and chosen and cleansed (Mal. 3:17), their inward filth and pollution purged away, they could not be delighted in by Him, or be loved as a family member, but only loved with a love of good Will, for the purpose of grace and benevolence.
I say personally elected; that is, the objects of this grace, or of this election were singled out and pitched upon by name; not unconditionally but with respect to being chosen by reason of their faith in Christ, the Head of Election, that they believed and were committed to repentance and “should be holy and without blame before him in love” (Eph. 1:4). They are chosen that they may be holy; not because they were holy, or God foresaw they would make themselves holy.
I say, once individually chosen, they were ordained to everlasting life. Now to predestinate, decree, or ordain, denotes the same thing, and signifies the absolute purpose of God to bring them into a state of grace spiritually, within Jesus Christ, and to eternal glory and happiness hereafter: Hence it is said, “As many as accepted God’s direction to eternal life, believed, thus were appointed by mutual consent and thus their salvation was in accordance with His Redemption plan.
They were “chosen and placed in Christ”, that they standing might be secured through their union with Him, and made righteous by the washing of regeneration, according to God’s eternal purpose.
2. Now that all men may know that conditional election by reason of credited faith of existing individuals is the gospel, Paul says “chosen … for salvation… by reason of faith in the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:13)
Moreover, in the New Testament that our Savior calls His disciples by name and tells them, that “he knew whom he had chosen,” (John 13:18) excluding Judas; He must therefore intend their eternal election, for as I said before, Judas was chosen to the Apostleship: also Paul by name. Jesus Christ declares (to Ananias) was “a chosen vessel” not only as an Apostle, but one also comprehended in the election of grace. Do but observe the Nature of his conversion, and what he was before and when called by the special grace of God.
So much shall serve to prove that there is an election of particular persons, based on crediting their faith in Christ as righteousness, (Romans 4:4-5, Romans 4:23-24).
Object. But may be some will Object, If this be so, what need any man concern himself about his salvation, as to seek it or labor after it: for if he be elected, he shall be saved; but if not, let him do what he can, he cannot be saved, he cannot frustrate God’s acceptance or rejection, nor alter the Redemption mechanism that is Jesus Christ.
Answer. I answer, All mankind are under the strongest obligation imaginable to God, as He is their Creator, and they His creatures; as He is their only Lord and Supreme Governor, they are bound to fear Him, and obey His laws, let Him do what He will with them.
3. God has ordained the means, as well as the end result, Men are not only elected to salvation, but also to resulting sanctification and holiness.
4. Men ought to endeavor to believe and repent, thus embrace the gospel of Christ. (John 3:16)
5. God opposes the proud, those unwilling to trust only in Christ and lean not on their own understanding.
6. Whosoever therefore that does neglect the means God hath appointed, in order to the obtaining the end, let it be what it will, should they reject God, and comply with the Devil? May it never be.
7. No decree of God necessitates men to sin: for though the free grace of God is the absolute cause of election based on God crediting our faith as righteousness; yet wickedness, unbelief and disobedience is the procuring cause of the reprobation (Jude 4) and of the damnation of them that perish: “O Israel, you have destroyed yourself, but in me is your help” (Hos. 13:9).
8. Were any ever damned that did what they could in the use of all means under the light of the gospel, to be saved? Brethren, God will condemn men for their not improving their “one talent.” Nor will it be a good plea for such to say, “I knew thou were an hard man, reaping where you have not sown,” (Matt. 25:24) Is He unjust in giving grace to some, because He does not bestow it upon all? Had He not took hold of a few, the whole lump of mankind would have destroyed themselves, and none would have been saved. Was God unjust in electing some of the Angels, because He passed by others of them?
9. In the day of judgment, God will be just, and all men’s mouths shall be stopped: This you may assure your selves of, “He will be justified when he judges, and clear when he condemns? (Ps. 51:4). He that had not on the wedding-garment was speechless. God will not then proceed with men upon election and reprobation, but upon their believing, or not believing?He will render to every man according to their works? (Rom. 2:6). All men’s mouths shall be stopped, and every man’s conscience witness against him. Alas, men who do not act or exercise their human faith in respect of the report of the gospel, which they do in respect of other matters and things that are made known to them, or do not bring forth the fruit of such an historical faith, face God’s justice.
(Based on the valid parts of "A Golden Mine Opened" pp. 169-175, 1694 edition)
Has God has determined from eternity to save a definite number of mankind, i.e. foreseen individuals? This bogus assertion assumes Ephesians 1:4, where God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, refers to individuals. But this verse refers to "us" as being chosen as the target group, those to be redeemed, not individually but corporately.
The reason this has to be a corporate election, rather than a definite number of foreseen individuals, is that God chooses individuals during our lifetime. James 2:5 says God chooses the poor in the eyes of the world, those rich in faith, those who are heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love Him. All three of these conditions occur during our lifetime, we accept Christ and toss out the treasures of this world, we put our faith in the surpassing glories of heaven, thus rich in faith, and we devote ourselves to Christ, loving Christ with all our heart, mind and soul.
Next we pile on 2 Thessalonians 2:13 which says we are chosen through faith in the truth. Faith comes from hearing. So we must be alive, living somewhere to hear and put our trust in Christ in order to be chosen through faith in the truth.
Next we pile on 1 Corinthians 1:26-30. God puts us in Christ, it is His doing, we do not do it. But He puts us in Christ during our lifetime, choosing those that disregard the world's value system for God's value system, opposing the proud but giving grace to the humble.
Next, we have 1 Peter 2:9-10 which says we are chosen, i.e. receive mercy, after we have lived without mercy. Once we were not a people, but now we are a people. Again this puts our individual election during our lifetime after we have lived without mercy.
Next, we are by nature, children of wrath, Ephesians 2:3. But no charge (the cause of wrath) can be brought against the elect, Romans 8:33. So again, we are chosen, elected after we have lived without mercy as a child of wrath.
The reason this has to be a corporate election, rather than a definite number of foreseen individuals, is that God chooses individuals during our lifetime. James 2:5 says God chooses the poor in the eyes of the world, those rich in faith, those who are heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love Him. All three of these conditions occur during our lifetime, we accept Christ and toss out the treasures of this world, we put our faith in the surpassing glories of heaven, thus rich in faith, and we devote ourselves to Christ, loving Christ with all our heart, mind and soul.
Next we pile on 2 Thessalonians 2:13 which says we are chosen through faith in the truth. Faith comes from hearing. So we must be alive, living somewhere to hear and put our trust in Christ in order to be chosen through faith in the truth.
Next we pile on 1 Corinthians 1:26-30. God puts us in Christ, it is His doing, we do not do it. But He puts us in Christ during our lifetime, choosing those that disregard the world's value system for God's value system, opposing the proud but giving grace to the humble.
Next, we have 1 Peter 2:9-10 which says we are chosen, i.e. receive mercy, after we have lived without mercy. Once we were not a people, but now we are a people. Again this puts our individual election during our lifetime after we have lived without mercy.
Next, we are by nature, children of wrath, Ephesians 2:3. But no charge (the cause of wrath) can be brought against the elect, Romans 8:33. So again, we are chosen, elected after we have lived without mercy as a child of wrath.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
I don't deny that you can't deny verses that place salvation in time (although Calvinists can simultaneously deny that election is also in time). But to illustrate my point, let me ask you this: where you in Christ all the way back before the foundation of the world?
It does, indirectly, as Jesus & later the apostles preached to crowds. They preached to ALL, not just to certain ones.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
How is that relevant?
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Chosen to be in Christ. But no, you are not in Christ until you are born again.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Yes, so none are without excuse. But you read into it more than what it says.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
the use of DRAG!. you DRAG someonw who is UNWILLING, "If someone drags you somewhere you do not want to go, they make you go there." Drag definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary
On and on the defenders of falsehood deflect and avoid addressing the fact that the Election of Ephesians 1:4 must be corporate, because once we were not a people, and if chosen before creation, we would have always been a chosen people. Then the fact we are chosen through or by reason of faith in the truth is ignored, because we did not believe until after we lived without mercy and heard the gospel and placed our faith in Christ.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Too many denials too many times! You'll have to translate into English if you want a reply.Eph. 1:3-4. 'Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world.......'
In time God blessed us in Christ, just as He chose us in Him from all eternity.
I'm not sure what you find so difficult about that, but let me try to give an analogy. All analogies fall if you press them too far, so I hope you won't do so.
I don't know if you are a father, but suppose that you have a son who has offended you in some way just before his birthday. You have sent him to his room until he apologizes and he won't be getting his present until he does so.
But the present is there; you bought it a long time ago to give to him, and he will get it, but not until he says, "Sorry!" You have loved him since before he was born. The blessing you're going to give him is certain, but he hasn't received it yet.
I do not believe he foreknew who would believe of themselves but that he foreknew unto belief. Foreknew unto being (genitive) of faith. Of Christ?
Christ being the, obedience of faith.
Yet another off topic false charge by the fount of falsehoods.
Note how these bullies address my behavior and not the content of the thread.
Has God has determined from eternity to save a definite number of mankind, i.e. foreseen individuals? This bogus assertion assumes Ephesians 1:4, where God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, refers to individuals. But this verse refers to "us" as being chosen as the target group, those to be redeemed, not individually but corporately.
The reason this has to be a corporate election, rather than a definite number of foreseen individuals, is that God chooses individuals during our lifetime. James 2:5 says God chooses the poor in the eyes of the world, those rich in faith, those who are heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love Him. All three of these conditions occur during our lifetime, we accept Christ and toss out the treasures of this world, we put our faith in the surpassing glories of heaven, thus rich in faith, and we devote ourselves to Christ, loving Christ with all our heart, mind and soul.
Next we pile on 2 Thessalonians 2:13 which says we are chosen through faith in the truth. Faith comes from hearing. So we must be alive, living somewhere to hear and put our trust in Christ in order to be chosen through faith in the truth.
Next we pile on 1 Corinthians 1:26-30. God puts us in Christ, it is His doing, we do not do it. But He puts us in Christ during our lifetime, choosing those that disregard the world's value system for God's value system, opposing the proud but giving grace to the humble.
Next, we have 1 Peter 2:9-10 which says we are chosen, i.e. receive mercy, after we have lived without mercy. Once we were not a people, but now we are a people. Again this puts our individual election during our lifetime after we have lived without mercy.
Next, we are by nature, children of wrath, Ephesians 2:3. But no charge (the cause of wrath) can be brought against the elect, Romans 8:33. So again, we are chosen, elected after we have lived without mercy as a child of wrath.
This is a bogus argument. The letter is written to 'The saints who are in Ephesus and faithful in Christ Jesus.' These are individuals. They and Paul were chosen before the foundation of the world with the purpose that they should be holy and without blame before God. This was accomplished by the perfect life and propitiatory death of the Lord Jesus Christ.
This is a bogus argument. James 2:5 says that God 'has chosen' the poor etc. (This is qualified by 1 Corinthians 1:26-28). This is the Past Tense. He chose them in eternity as per Eph. 1:4.
I'll deal with the rest of your bogus post tomorrow.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Exactly. NO human desires God in their natural state.
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