Infant Salvation

[webdog]

Mentally impaired folks and infants are among the "all have sinned" of Romans 3:23 . On a side note , it's interesting that even Calvinists have regarded the usage of the word "all" in this particular passage as referring to each and every person ever . But some from the non-Cal side of the aisle would like to mitigate the force of "all" here

"Have sinned" is past tense indicating a point in time when sin was committed. This is clearly referring to those with the ability to do so...of them, they all have and will sin. I agree with that 100%. With a sin nature sin will be inevitable.

 

[Mr.M]

Mr M;

Seems you are condemning "inflammatory" language, while engaging in it your self. You have provided nothing to prove the statement are untrue ( I guess you are referring to me, if not then I apologize). You do something here that I do not do, when two brothers are having a discussion and accuations are made, I generally stay out of it, for that is just adding fuel to the flames.

I wasn't referring to you SPECIFICALLY and instead of offensively accusing me of such through assumption and having the gall to offer an apology as some license for your accusation, DON'T DO IT, simply have the integrity to ask before you make such an accusation. Disgusting to say the least.

As far as how YOU do things and how I do things...well "Brother" you do things your way and I will do things MY way and attempting to compare your way to mine as might righteous is nothing but the stench of self-righteousness.

Now, how about back to the topic, eh?

 

[Brother Bob]

I wasn't referring to you SPECIFICALLY and instead of offensively accusing me of such through assumption and having the gall to offer an apology as some license for your accusation, DON'T DO IT, simply have the integrity to ask before you make such an accusation. Disgusting to say the least.

As far as how YOU do things and how I do things...well "Brother" you do things your way and I will do things MY way and attempting to compare your way to mine as might righteous is nothing but the stench of self-righteousness.

Now, how about back to the topic, eh?

Whether it was me or someone else, you apparently meant someone on this board. So do not be surprised when you get called on it.

As far as how YOU do things and how I do things...well "Brother" you do things your way and I will do things MY way and attempting to compare your way to mine as might righteous is nothing but the stench of self-righteousness.

more inflammatory language, you good at it.

 

[Mr.M]

Whether it was me or someone else, you apparently meant someone on this board. So do not be surprised when you get called on it.

Let's see, first you apologize now you embrace your erring assumption now that I CALLED YOU ON IT and ignore your own apology and admission of guilt. The Bible calls that double minded, now GET BACK to the TOPIC at hand.

more inflammatory language, you good at it.

By calling my language inflammatory you are just trying to inflame under this guise. Shame. Now BACK TO THE TOPIC and please stop with the personal attacks.

 

[Brother Bob]

As if you did not make any........................

 

[Rippon]

BB , Augustine's works , used with discrimination , can be claimed by Protestants -- even non-Calvinistic ones . Of course he can also be claimed by Roman Catholics as well . I would not put him in the pure R.C. category though .

Sure , Calvin , as well as the rest of the Reformers were reared as Roman Catholics . Nothing new there . They , especially Calvin cleared away a lot of Roman Catholic rubbish . He made tremendous advances toward that end . But the Church needs to keep on reforming . It did not end with Calvin . But he sure was a God-honored pioneer who has blessed the Church with his various works . And those works , in turn have been used to help countless souls throughout Christian history . If the Lord tarries his works will still aid the Church long after you and I have been buried .

You still have not furnished an iota of proof for any of your "quotes" . Either furnish proof , or admit you can't come up with anything because there is nothing to your bogus claims . Yes , please come up with the sermon of Calvin's that uses the terminology you have shamelessly perpetuated .

BB: ..." so I guess that is what they meant by the way to hell being paved with babies bones ."

Who is the "they" ? Who ever said such a ridiculous thing aside from Calvinist detractors ?

 

[Brother Bob]

I already acknowledged that I could not produce where Calvin used the exact words I quoted. I can produce many internet postings about Calvin believing infants in hell, but was not able to find a notible reference so I did not use them. Some of he words Calvin used, he seem to want it both ways. Now Augustine is another story, he did believe in infants being lost and going to hell. Whether he quoted the exact words I used, I do not know. Likewise there are many posting on the internet on St Augustine, but his own acknowledge that Augustine believed in infants being lost.

Now, Calvin, I probably will not use again, but Augustine, I will use if I find it necessary for I have enough proof on him to back up the fact, that he believed in infants being lost and not going to heaven.

Calvin did make one quote where he only included the "elect"s children being saved, but later he added later all children. So, he was a little wishy washy.

Since this thread started there have been several on here that have lefted the impression that infants are lost if they die that way. I knew there were many who did believe it but did not think they would come forward with it. I am glad they did. If you believe something and not man enough to stand up for it, then you should not get into the debate.

You seem to not even accept the proof on St Augustine, but that up to you. IMO Augustine believe babies in hell, and Calvin followed the doctrine of Augustine closely, I have no proof however he believed in babies in hell. That is not to say, I have not heard it quoted many times and also on the internet in many different postings.

 

[Rippon]

I have made it very clear BB, that I have objected to your professed "quotes" . They are phony . You have not produced any documentation from Augustine, Calvin nor any Calvinist who has allegedly said such things . You can go all around the barn and try to wiggle out of your counterfeit claims if you want to . It's shameful , but it is your right . You can infer and make conjectures and attempt to stitch together your piece of cloth . However , it has become obvious that your claims are nothing but flimflam .

 

[moondg]

I have made it very clear BB, that I have objected to your professed "quotes" . This is called debating if you agreed with his quotes it would not be. They are phony . You have not produced any documentation from Augustine, Calvin nor any Calvinist who has allegedly said such things .Have you produced anything showing were they said something else? If what Bro Bob said is not true show us the truth. You can go all around the barn and try to wiggle out of your counterfeit claims if you want to . It's shameful , but it is your right . You can infer and make conjectures and attempt to stitch together your piece of cloth . However , it has become obvious that your claims are nothing but flimflam .

My claim Infants go to heaven. Unless you can show me something in the bible that says different that is what i believe. Now I do not care what Calvin or anyone else says for that matter on this subject, I want to know what God said. No were can I find were God says infants go to Hell. As I said before how can people think a just and loving God could send a aborted child to hell. Some were in the past posts someone said you had to be born again. They are not born the first time. Some one else said infants need to be baptised to be saved. Baptism does not save you. Come on people think about it how can a infant be sent to hell.

 

[Rippon]

MD , I speak in plain language . You have to understand plain , unambiguous language . No documentation has yet been provided for the fraudulent "quotes" . It does not matter if various Calvinists of the past believed that some babies would go to Hell . I object to the fake phraseologies which were concocted long ago by anti-Calvinists . Bob repeats the same old tired lines without attributing any sources , no documentation whatsoever . Silly websites continue to rehash the myths and BB and others here buy into the tripe . Do you now understand ? Really , it's rather simple .

Many folks would also object to the doctrine that heathen peoples go to Hell . "How could a loving God send them to Hell ? They never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel . Surely the Lord would have mercy upon them ." But , to be true to the Word of God you would be forced to conclude that those who never hear or read the Gospel die in thei sins . Hell is their appointed destiny .

 

[moondg]

MD , I speak in plain language . You have to understand plain , unambiguous language . No documentation has yet been provided for the fraudulent "quotes" . It does not matter if various Calvinists of the past believed that some babies would go to Hell . I object to the fake phraseologies which were concocted long ago by anti-Calvinists . Bob repeats the same old tired lines without attributing any sources , no documentation whatsoever . Silly websites continue to rehash the myths and BB and others here buy into the tripe . Do you now understand ? Really , it's rather simple . Do you understand I am a Christian not a calvinists. What are you. My point is I do not care what calvin says. I care what God says. Everybody wants to quote someone else. If bro Bob is wrong show me the prof. I am not saying he is wright just show me he is wrong. As far as I know you may be wrong.

Many folks would also object to the doctrine that heathen peoples go to Hell . "How could a loving God send them to Hell ?They never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel . Surely the Lord would have mercy upon them ." But , to be true to the Word of God you would be forced to conclude that those who never hear or read the Gospel die in thei sins . Hell is their appointed destiny .

How do you know they go to hell. If they do not know they are sinning are they sinning? What to they scale right from wrong with. Do they have morals? I don't know.

 

[Brother Bob]

Well, I provided good proof on St Augustine. He was a Catholic and the Catholic encyclopedia says he believed infants of the unsaved go to hell.
Seems to me if you accuse me of not providing proof, then its you posting untruths. Also Calvin followed in Augustine's footsteps and took most of his doctrine for he own, being he was raised a Catholic also.

I refuted you twice, I think that will be enough. I may quote it in the future also. others quoted it also, but you just chose me to refute, is there a reason for that also?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Well, I provided good proof on St Augustine. He was a Catholic and the Catholic encyclopedia says he believed infants of the unsaved go to hell.
Seems to me if you accuse me of not providing proof, then its you posting untruths. Also Calvin followed in Augustine's footsteps and took most of his doctrine for he own, being he was raised a Catholic also.

I refuted you twice, I think that will be enough. I may quote it in the future also. others quoted it also, but you just chose me to refute, is there a reason for that also?

Brother Bob,

Surely you remember the conversation we had on this. It wasn't the RC Encyclopedia, but rather Phillip Schaff's History of the Christian Church that gave evidence (and certainly respected scholarly credibility) to the idea that Augustine believed some infants may be damned. And if you recall, in the entire section Schaff wrote, it was John Calvin that turned such ideas away. And if you recall, it was the doctrine of baptismal regeneration that may have led Augustine to his belief, not the doctrine of predestination.

Surely you remember the truth in this matter, and surely you ddon't mean to accuse John Calvin of believing in infant damnation by your statement that he followed Augustine in the doctrine of predestination.

 

[Jarthur001]

How do you know they go to hell. If they do not know they are sinning are they sinning? What to they scale right from wrong with. Do they have morals? I don't know.

Moon,

You are teetering on the edge of inclusivism. The Bible is clear about how one is saved. It is only through believing on the shead blood if Jesus Christ. God is more then just love. This is where inclusivists such as Clark Pinnock trip up. Pinnock builds his argument for inclusivism upon the fact that God is love, and because of this God could not possibly damn good, sincere people to hell. Pinnock states, “God’s love for the world is both broad an inclusive . . . Christian theology must speak of universality and of inclusion” . Pinnock calls upon 1 Timothy 2:4 in order to support this statement. However, this verse says that God wants all people to be saved. It does not state that all people are saved. Pinnock focuses upon the love of God while overlooking the justice and perfection of God.

But here is another problem. Pinnock is right in applying Gods will, but he is wrong in just applying Gods will to ONLY Gods love. This is were we get a twisted view of God. Does God get His way? Is God helpless or does God have to power to do as He pleases? Does God only react to what we do?

Pinnock and inclusivist says NO. God always gets His way and Gods will does come about. Well as a Calvinist I agree with this statement. But inclusivist only applies this to Gods love and over looks Gods wrath. Therefore when they read…” God wants all people to be saved”…+..”God has the power to save all people”…+…”salvation is in the hands of the LORD”…..then God saves all sincere people no matter what they believe…as long as they are seeking God. Pinnock and others that believe in inclusivism have become very exclusive in their thinking toward one subject about God. That exclusive subject is Gods love.

So the probem is if God has the power to save, and His will is to save ALL mankind, God will indeed save all mankind. This is what Pinnock says. And you know what? He is right…if these statements are true. This is why we must see the full picture of God as found in the Word. We cannot base doctrine or feelings.


It is clear in Gods Word that God is more then love. One only needs to read the passage on love to see this is true. Hell is talked more about then Heaven. Wrath of God is seen more then you may wish to admit. God is a holy God and HATES sin. Yes God hates as well as loves. This you will never find in inclusivism.

 

[Brother Bob]

Brother Bob,

Surely you remember the conversation we had on this. It wasn't the RC Encyclopedia, but rather Phillip Schaff's History of the Christian Church that gave evidence (and certainly respected scholarly credibility) to the idea that Augustine believed some infants may be damned. And if you recall, in the entire section Schaff wrote, it was John Calvin that turned such ideas away. And if you recall, it was the doctrine of baptismal regeneration that may have led Augustine to his belief, not the doctrine of predestination.

Surely you remember the truth in this matter, and surely you ddon't mean to accuse John Calvin of believing in infant damnation by your statement that he followed Augustine in the doctrine of predestination.

I have stated now at least twice that I do not have any valid references that Calvin believed in infant going to hell. I gave the Catholic Encyclopedia for references, which gave the History of Phillip Scahff's in showing that St. Augustine believe in infants going to hell. It was because of non baptism and I do not ever remember saying it was predestination, with the exception of some references showing the salvation of the "elect's" children, and making no mention of the non-elect's children, of which I believe, if not mistaken, included you.

I do not see where I have stated anything to the contrary. Calvin was raised a Catholic and held to many of the beliefs of St. Augustine.

What is amazing is that St. Augustine is held in high regards by most and was a Catholic himself, but their own history of the life and beliefs of Augustine is rejected, unless quoted by someone else. Amazing.

 

[Jarthur001]

Well, I provided good proof on St Augustine. He was a Catholic and the Catholic encyclopedia says he believed infants of the unsaved go to hell.
Seems to me if you accuse me of not providing proof, then its you posting untruths. Also Calvin followed in Augustine's footsteps and took most of his doctrine for he own, being he was raised a Catholic also.

I refuted you twice, I think that will be enough. I may quote it in the future also. others quoted it also, but you just chose me to refute, is there a reason for that also?

Not that it matters.....

But the fact is Augustine was not Catholic. Yes the RCC claims him, but they also claim Paul. I'm not going to give up my faith because the RCC claims Peter are you?

The fact is, if you read any church history book the RCC was not formed till after the fall of Rome (410) at the council of ephesus or some place it as late as "pope Leo" 440-461 and the council of chalcedon.

As said before...please read Phillip Schaff's Church history. Another smaller work is The story of Christianity by Justo L Gonzalez

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Not that it matters.....

But the fact is Augustine was not Catholic. Yes the RCC claims him, but they also claim Paul. I'm not going to give up my faith because the RCC claims Peter are you?

The fact is, if you read any church history book the RCC was not formed till after the fall of Rome (410) at the council of ephesus or some place it as late as "pope Leo" 440-461 and the council of chalcedon.

As said before...please read Phillip Schaff's Church history. Another smaller work is The story of Christianity by Justo L Gonzalez

Good point. :thumbs:

 

[Brother Bob]

James;

Not that it matters.....

But the fact is Augustine was not Catholic. Yes the RCC claims him, but they also claim Paul. I'm not going to give up my faith because the RCC claims Peter are you?

The fact is, if you read any church history book the RCC was not formed till after the fall of Rome (410) at the council of ephesus or some place it as late as "pope Leo" 440-461 and the council of chalcedon.

As said before...please read Phillip Schaff's Church history. Another smaller work is The story of Christianity by Justo L Gonzalez

Being that you give Phillip Schaff's Church History, then I am sure you would accept that they wrote St. Augustine to believe in the infants of the unsaved going to hell. I may not have the words just right, so don't quote me but look it up yourself, if you do not believe me.

Wonder where St. Augustine got the St. ??
BBob,

 

[Jarthur001]

James;

Being that you give Phillip Schaff's Church History, then I am sure you would accept that they wrote St. Augustine to believe in the infants of the unsaved going to hell. I may not have the words just right, so don't quote me but look it up yourself, if you do not believe me.

Wonder where St. Augustine got the St. ??
BBob,

St came from the RCC. This is why I'm sure you are getting your information from the RCC. Others call him Augustine of Hippo. The reason...there were two Augustine's. The other one was from Rome.

Augustine did believe very much close to what you said.

Now the point...was he right or wrong?

Back your views with verses. Dale-C gave the most supported view in the Bible so far...as far as I can tell. As he said...you only have 3 choices.

1....all babies go to heaven
2...all go to hell
3...God choose some to go to heaven.

It matters little what someone else said...be they Calvin...the guy from hippo....or tom jones. What do you believe based on Gods Holy Word?

 

[Brother Bob]

It matters little what someone else said...be they Calvin...the guy from hippo....or tom jones. What do you believe based on Gods Holy Word?

What I believe of course matters to me, but is it the truth according to the word of God, that really matters. I believe Jesus when He picked up a small child and said such IS, not going to be, but IS the Kingdom. I accept that and its good enough for me. I find where others struggle with the scripture and apply the scriptures to mankind to cover infants, and I have not yet read a scripture where Jesus spoke to infants, and I sense in their statements they do not want to say infants will go to hell for it would not go over very will with the readers, so they say, God's love covers them. James you know me well, and if I believed that infants went to hell, I would say it out loud.

BBob,