Infants in Heaven

[convicted1]

Does a baby possess a soul in the same fashion as it's infant body? What I mean is does it have the same characteristics? A baby needs to be fed, burped, diaper changed, etc. Their soul, imo, isn't that way. If that's the case, we'd need a nursery in heaven to tend to them whilst we worship our King, Saviour, and Lord.

 

[convicted1]

Did you ever get to your 30th GED reunion?

Did you ever go and confess you stole "Sammy" and that parrot?

Your "father" is waiting for you to speak to him from behind the mesh screen, you know.....

 

[webdog]

Seeing that faith is God's gift to man(Romans 12:3) and that He has chosen to justify the heathen by faith(Galatians 3:8), could not God grant it to infants and those who are mentally challenged?

Faith is trust, the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of the unseen...and comes by hearing and that by the Word of God. Given what we know about faith, what it is, and what is needed...how is that possible? Faith is not a supernatural trait, but the object of saving faith IS supernatural.

 

[convicted1]

Faith is trust, the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of the unseen...and comes by hearing and that by the Word of God. Given what we know about faith, what it is, and what is needed...how is that possible? Faith is not a supernatural trait, but the object of saving faith IS supernatural.

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Acts 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Brother WebDog, I don't want you to think I am cherry picking, but did this for time's sake. All of these afore mentioned verses show God giving them the ability to believe, to have faith, iow. God has chosen to justify sinful man by faith. Now, if faith is within man to believe, then man has justified himself. God gives us these gifts such as sanctification, repentance, justification, etc.

 

[webdog]

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Acts 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Brother WebDog, I don't want you to think I am cherry picking, but did this for time's sake. All of these afore mentioned verses show God giving them the ability to believe, to have faith, iow. God has chosen to justify sinful man by faith. Now, if faith is within man to believe, then man has justified himself. God gives us these gifts such as sanctification, repentance, justification, etc.

Being given the ability to believe is not the same thing as giving the means to believe. For instance, when someone is on trial the lawyers give the jury the information needed to get them to believe, they are not reaching into their minds and implanting a supernatural belief. They have been given the ability to believe the truth, or they can exchange that truth and choose to believe the lie. At any rate, as our Lord says, let us reason together. This takes the ability to do just that.

 

[OldRegular]

I also believe that God is self existent. However scripture states and I will paste, John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Could the Son have it unless it be given to him? That statement says the Father Gives to the Son.

Jesus Christ is talking here about the eternal life given to those who are redeemed, not about the self existence of God.

Is the giving of self existent life by the Father to the Son the grace that bringeth salvation as in my post to webdog? Reference, Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

There is one God who is self existent and eternal. That One God has revealed Himself as three persons, all who are eternal. As I noted above John 5:25 is not about the self existence of the Triune God!

Is that when Jesus of Nazareth became the author of eternal salvation?

In the mind of God Jesus Christ has always been the Author of eternal salvation. See Revelation 13:8.

Is that the salvation of Acts 4:12?

I believe so!

Compare what you said concerning Noah's family with mine to Arron concerning same.

Grace is not mentioned relative to Noah's family. Scripture says nothing about it.

The above is why Jesus is called the firstborn from the dead. Anyone born of woman regardless of when they die must be born again to see/enter/inherit the kingdom of God.
Has nothing to do with where someone goes when they die. It is about inheriting.

Be careful not to confuse the human nature of Jesus Christ with the Divine nature.

I believe Jesus Christ is called the "firstborn from the dead" because He is the first person to experience resurrection, which is not the same as being brought back to life!

 

[percho]

Being given the ability to believe is not the same thing as giving the means to believe. For instance, when someone is on trial the lawyers give the jury the information needed to get them to believe, they are not reaching into their minds and implanting a supernatural belief. They have been given the ability to believe the truth, or they can exchange that truth and choose to believe the lie. At any rate, as our Lord says, let us reason together. This takes the ability to do just that.

I will venture to say that if the following did not take place not one man would have ever believed unto salvation.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. John 16:13

I will also venture to say that the above would not have taken place if:

Verse 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

The faith one heard of by which that one received the Spirit of truth unto faith/belief was that Jesus of Nazareth went away; Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Had he not went away and had he not have been raised from the death of that crucifixion faith would be vain, there would be no faith to be heard of by which the Spirit could be received.

And if Christ be not raised, your faith vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1 Cor 15:14

 

[webdog]

I will venture to say that if the following did not take place not one man would have ever believed unto salvation.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. John 16:13

I will also venture to say that the above would not have taken place if:

Verse 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

The faith one heard of by which that one received the Spirit of truth unto faith/belief was that Jesus of Nazareth went away; Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Had he not went away and had he not have been raised from the death of that crucifixion faith would be vain, there would be no faith to be heard of by which the Spirit could be received.

And if Christ be not raised, your faith vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1 Cor 15:14

:thumbsup::godisgood:

 

[Iconoclast]

Jerome

Huh?

What does the part you cut out of his letter have to do with your 'mustn't question The Confession' pronouncements?

huh..what..where did you go? that was it?huh, what...one sentence from a random pastor that does not say all you need it to say???/huh , what....
come out come out where ever you are...or was that all you could find in trolling the net?

make you case jerome if you can.

 

[pinoybaptist]

No. The ark didn't really save, just as the blood of bulls and goats never really atoned. BUT, just as only those in the ark were spared judgment, so only those found in Christ will be truly saved.

The ark is a picture of Christ, you and I will likely agree on that. But Christ is not only an ETERNAL Savior, that is, the salvation He secured for the elect does not only guarantee their eternity, Christ is also the Savior of His people IN TIME, and its blessings and benefits not only for His people but those who are families of His people.
Think of Paul writing to the Corinthian wife that she may yet save her unbelieving husband.
Or the Philipian jailor being told to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and he will be saved, and his family.

One is left with three "possibilities" concerning infants:

1. They're conceived already "in Christ,"
2. They're whole, righteous and holy and need no Christ
3. They enter in by grace through faith.

OR God, in His omniscience knew which baby or infant will die in babyhood or infanthood, including where, how, and when, and so had these souls covered by the blood of the Lamb slain FROM the foundation of the world, having written their names in the Lamb's Book of Life (God's mind) just as He wrote the names of those who did reach adulthood wherever and covered them with the same blood shed first from the foundation of the world, and then, in a timely sense, at the cross of Calvary.

 

[Winman]

Being given the ability to believe is not the same thing as giving the means to believe. For instance, when someone is on trial the lawyers give the jury the information needed to get them to believe, they are not reaching into their minds and implanting a supernatural belief. They have been given the ability to believe the truth, or they can exchange that truth and choose to believe the lie. At any rate, as our Lord says, let us reason together. This takes the ability to do just that.

Excellent point Webdog. All men have the God-given ability to believe, but no man can believe what he does not know. God enables men to believe in Christ by preachers who preach the gospel.

If you believe that God has to regenerate men before they can believe, then you would have to believe all men everywhere will believe;

Jhn 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

If you believe that God regenerates a man to believe, then this verse says all men will believe.

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

If you believe God regenerates a man to believe, then this verse would teach that every single man who reads or hears the book of John will be regenerated and believe on Jesus.

 

[percho]

Excellent point Webdog. All men have the God-given ability to believe, but no man can believe what he does not know. God enables men to believe in Christ by preachers who preach the gospel.

If you believe that God has to regenerate men before they can believe, then you would have to believe all men everywhere will believe;

Jhn 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

If you believe that God regenerates a man to believe, then this verse says all men will believe.

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

If you believe God regenerates a man to believe, then this verse would teach that every single man who reads or hears the book of John will be regenerated and believe on Jesus.

That is one of if not the, most interesting post, I have ever read. Thank you.

What do you think would be one of the very first things a man who had been regenerated to believe would do?

 

[Aaron]

Excellent point Webdog. All men have the God-given ability to believe, but no man can believe what he does not know.

You're talking sight, not faith.

God enables men to believe in Christ by preachers who preach the gospel.

Didn't you in the last breath just affirm that all men already have that ability?

 

[Winman]

You're talking sight, not faith.

Didn't you in the last breath just affirm that all men already have that ability?

Men have the ability to believe what they know, but no man is able to believe what he does not know.

Before a man hears the gospel he is unable to believe it. Once he hears the gospel he is able to believe it.

This is exactly what Paul implies in Romans 10:14;

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Does Paul mention that a person has to be regenerated to believe here? NO.

Paul must not have been a Calvinist, no decent Calvinist would forget to mention that a person must be regenerated to have the ability to believe. :laugh:

 

[Aaron]

Does Paul mention that a person has to be regenerated to believe here? NO.

He said elsewhere that the natural man cannot receive the things of God.

So far, looks like Paul agrees with me.

 

[percho]

He said elsewhere that the natural man cannot receive the things of God.

So far, looks like Paul agrees with me.

That is because, they have been conceived of God by the Spirit of Truth, of the word of God, unto belief, because of the faith of Jesus the Anointed.

 

[Winman]

He said elsewhere that the natural man cannot receive the things of God.

So far, looks like Paul agrees with me.

But what did Paul mean by the term "natural man"?

I ask that, because Paul believed unregenerate men could believe.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Romans 8:9 tells us that a man without the "indwelling" Holy Spirit is in the flesh, yet Paul's question in Galatians 3:2 demands the answer that these Galatians believed the gospel before they received the Holy Spirit.

Therefore Paul believed an unregenerate man had the ability to believe. And Paul did not say this once, he said it several times in scripture;

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Here again, Paul asked these persons if they had received the Holy Spirit SINCE they believed. So it is obvious Paul believed unregenerate men had the ability to believe the gospel, and if they did so they would receive the Holy Spirit.

This completely refutes your interpretation of 1 Cor 2:14.

Peter also believed unregenerate men had the ability to believe the gospel, and that if they did so, they would also receive the Spirit.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter told these Jews if they repent and believe on Jesus (because only believers are baptized) they would receive the Holy Spirit.

So if your interpretation of 1 Cor 2:14 is correct, then both Peter and Paul were very confused persons who did not know proper doctrine, because both of these men believed unregenerate men not only had the ability to understand the gospel, but they also believed unregenerate men could believe the gospel, and that AFTER they believed they would receive the Holy Spirit.

And no man is regenerated until he receives the Spirit (Rom 8:9).

John also believed unregenerate men could believe.

Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

John showed that many thousands of persons believed on Jesus before the Holy Spirit was given. So again, the apostles believed unregenerate men had the ability to understand and believe the gospel.

 

[Aaron]

The natural man cannot receive the things of God.

Pretty cut and dried.

 

[Aaron]

But that's my point. You and I disagree on the subject of faith.

 

[Winman]

The natural man cannot receive the things of God.

Pretty cut and dried.

No, it's not cut and dried at all, because Paul himself implies that he believed unregenerate men could believe several times in scripture.

What I believe is meant by "natural man" is men who focus on the natural. The world is full of men who have no interest in religion or the things of God.

Other men are "spiritual" they take an interest in religion and spiritual matters. I believe this would describe Cornelius, the scriptures say he was a "devout" man who prayed always.

Acts 10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

Cornelius would not fit the description of the natural man in 1 Cor 2:14. He did not think religion was foolish whatsoever, he feared God, prayed always, and did good works that proved his sincerity. But he was not saved, and he did not have the Holy Spirit, so he was not regenerated.

So, I believe in 1 Cor 2:14 Paul is speaking of "worldly" men, men who take no interest in spiritual or religious matters.

Very educated men are often like this, they think the scriptures are utter foolishness, they mock and laugh at the creation account, or stories of miracles.

And this is what I believe Paul is saying.