Infants in Heaven

[kyredneck]

Trust me, I've thought and rethought it plenty. Accepting a gift in no way limits the gift nor the gift giver. The recipient is completely passive.

No, if the recipient can reject the gift then the recipient is completely active.

Synergism: the doctrine that the human will cooperates with the Holy Ghost in the work of regeneration.

Monergism: the doctrine that the Holy Ghost acts independently of the human will in the work of regeneration.

It’s either one or the other webdog. If you believe the recipient ‘chooses to accept’ the gift, then the recipient is active in regeneration.

The Gospel is a work of the Spirit. Preachers are the work of the Spirit.

...and neither have zilch to do with regeneration:

.....It behoveth you to be born from above; the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.`Jn 3:7,8

The Spirit is not conveyed by preachers or parents or Sunday School teachers or missionaries or any other external means, He regenerates as He wills.

Everything man needs to accept the gift are works of the Spirit.

Again, what you’re saying is that man is active, not passive, in regeneration.

The prefaith regeneration crowd believes there is absolutely no power in all of these many works of the Spirit to reach a sinful man UNLESS another work of the Spirit is done. This makes no sense and makes mans sinful nature more powerful in resisting the Spirit.

I don't think you've a good grasp on 'prefaith regeneration', which actually what you mean is 'pre-choice regeneration'. You think faith means man's will, man's choice, and that is not correct, that is NOT what faith is.

Seeing it is God, that said, Light shall shine out of darkness, who shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 4:6

That is the power of God in regeneration, and man is passive in that.

 

[convicted1]

For those on the other side of the deabte

Marriage is a picture of Christ and the church, His bride, is it not? When we marry, we have only one bride which we marry, correct? That's the same way with Christ and those He redeemed/redeems. Those who were given to Him, those whom the Father chose from before the foundation of the world. Those whose names were recorded in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world, were given to Christ, the sacrificial lamb, to atone for their sins, to redeem them from among the accursed of the world.


Now, to tie this into this thread. We all, or most all, believe babies who have died, will never taste eternal death. But, we see a babies' fleshly body, and God sees their souls. Their souls aren't like their helpless bodies. If so, then we'd need a nursery to tend to them in heaven. Their souls don't need their parents help to survive, like their fleshly bodies do. I will not lose one iota of sleep when a baby dies, in regards to their eternal destination. I will grieve in that they died the physical death, but I do believe they will be at rest around the throne of God praising Him. I see them as those who God elected/chose from before the foundation of the world(Eph. 1:4).

 

[kyredneck]

Good post Willis.

I have a seven day old granddaughter I've been holding and snuggling and loving on for seven days now; she is the sweetest thing, never cries unless she's hungry or needs changed, she smiles and frowns and crooks her face and squeaks like a little mouse and wiggles around like a little worm when she's awake....GOD LOVE HER, THERE'S NO WAY HE WOULD SEND THAT LITTLE THING TO HELL; I KNOW IT INTUITIVELY, MY INNER MAN TELLS ME SO! GOD IS GOOD AND JUST. PERIOD.

This thread topic keeps popping up every now and again, I don't really understand why. God is good and just.

 

[convicted1]

No, if the recipient can reject the gift then the recipient is completely active.

Synergism: the doctrine that the human will cooperates with the Holy Ghost in the work of regeneration.

Monergism: the doctrine that the Holy Ghost acts independently of the human will in the work of regeneration.

It’s either one or the other webdog. If you believe the recipient ‘chooses to accept’ the gift, then the recipient is active in regeneration.



...and neither have zilch to do with regeneration:

.....It behoveth you to be born from above; the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.`Jn 3:7,8

The Spirit is not conveyed by preachers or parents or Sunday School teachers or missionaries or any other external means, He regenerates as He wills.



Again, what you’re saying is that man is active, not passive, in regeneration.



I don't think you've a good grasp on 'prefaith regeneration', which actually what you mean is 'pre-choice regeneration'. You think faith means man's will, man's choice, and that is not correct, that is NOT what faith is.

Seeing it is God, that said, Light shall shine out of darkness, who shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 4:6

That is the power of God in regeneration, and man is passive in that.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

God regenerates to give the ability to hear the gospel, the means of how we are converted........

 

[convicted1]

Good post Willis.

I have a seven day old granddaughter I've been holding and snuggling and loving on for seven days now; she is the sweetest thing, never cries unless she's hungry or needs changed, she smiles and frowns and crooks her face and squeaks like a little mouse and wiggles around like a little worm when she's awake....GOD LOVE HER, THERE'S NO WAY HE WOULD SEND THAT LITTLE THING TO HELL; I KNOW IT INTUITIVELY, MY INNER MAN TELLS ME SO! GOD IS GOOD AND JUST. PERIOD.

This thread topic keeps popping up every now and again, I don't really understand why. God is good and just.

:godisgood::jesus::godisgood::jesus:

What I am about to type, I do not want anyone to misconstrue it to say that I am "holier than thou" because of my change in beliefs, or that I am on a higher plane now.

I had a faulty view in regards to man and God. I thought I had the DoG pegged, I thought I knew what they meant, but in reality, I was not even close. After I saw that when Adam fell, and thusly, his posterity, I began to see things differently. I was able to see all of mankind born dead, and that none, no, not even one, had a desire to come to him, left in their fallen state. I then began to see predestination as a most glorious doctrine, for without it, not even one us who came from Adam's loins would be saved. I began to see that it was God, who when He called, He did so in an effectual manner, and brought us to life to hear the gospel preached in it's power. I have a much deeper appreciation from these DoG's than I ever thought I would.

 

[saturneptune]

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

God regenerates to give the ability to hear the gospel, the means of how we are converted........

Without regeneration, we do not have the ability to respond to the Gospel. However, it is still a fact that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. There are those who use DOGs and sovereignty to dismiss missionaries, visitation, evangelism, and the like. Nothing could be further from the truth. We are commanded to go and tell. The reaction of those we talk to is God's business. Not going and telling is a result of disobedience and just general laziness. The point we are focused on is once the message is heard, how is it received, by man's will or God's gift of faith. Obviously the latter.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

:godisgood::jesus::godisgood::jesus:

What I am about to type, I do not want anyone to misconstrue it to say that I am "holier than thou" because of my change in beliefs, or that I am on a higher plane now.

I had a faulty view in regards to man and God. I thought I had the DoG pegged, I thought I knew what they meant, buttedq in reality, I was not even close. After I saw that qrwhen Adam fell, and thusly, his posterity, I began to see things differently. I was able to see all of mankind born dead, and that none, no, not even one, had a desire to come to him, left in their fallen state. I then began to see predestination as a most glorious doctrine, for without it, not even one us who came from Adam's loins would be saved. I began to see that it was God, who when He called, He did so in an effectual manner, and brought us to life to hear the gospel preached in it's power. I have a much deeper appreciation from these DoG's than I ever thought I would.

Yes, the issue remains Sola Gratia (by grace alone). To add anything at all to Gods grace is to deny its graciousness ...its very nature as a gift.

To you Willis I am glad to say welcome. "Post tenebras lux" ....after darkness light!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Without regeneration, we do not have the ability to respond to the Gospel. However, it is still a fact that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. There are those who use DOGs and sovereignty to dismiss missionaries, visitation, evangelism, and the like. Nothing could be further from the truth. We are commanded to go and tell. The reaction of those we talk to is God's business. Not going and telling is a result of disobedience and just general laziness. The point we are focused on is once the message is heard, how is it received, by man's will or God's gift of faith. Obviously the latter.

Please brother...no one is dismissing these things. Lets not even go there.

 

[saturneptune]

Please brother...no one is dismissing these things. Lets not even go there.

I am missing your point. It was not directed at Convicted.

 

[Winman]

:godisgood::jesus::godisgood::jesus:

What I am about to type, I do not want anyone to misconstrue it to say that I am "holier than thou" because of my change in beliefs, or that I am on a higher plane now.

I had a faulty view in regards to man and God. I thought I had the DoG pegged, I thought I knew what they meant, but in reality, I was not even close. After I saw that when Adam fell, and thusly, his posterity, I began to see things differently. I was able to see all of mankind born dead, and that none, no, not even one, had a desire to come to him, left in their fallen state. I then began to see predestination as a most glorious doctrine, for without it, not even one us who came from Adam's loins would be saved. I began to see that it was God, who when He called, He did so in an effectual manner, and brought us to life to hear the gospel preached in it's power. I have a much deeper appreciation from these DoG's than I ever thought I would.

You have never read of Abel who brought a proper sacrifice?

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Abel sought God, and Abel sought God properly by faith. Abel's sacrifice from his flock showed that he believed in the promised Saviour who would give himself to redeem mankind. Cain's gift from his crops represented a man's own work and was rejected.

And though Cain's offering was rejected, God did not reject Cain or pass over him to leave him in sin, but went to Cain and urged him to give a proper sacrifice.

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

The word "if" in this scripture is very significant, it shows that God believed Cain had the ability to give a proper sacrifice or not. And "if" Cain were to repent and give a proper sacrifice, God said he would be accepted. So God did not "pass over" Cain.

So how can you say the scriptures show man unable to respond to God? Scripture shows the very first man born after the fall, Cain, was able to respond to God if he had chosen to. The fact that he did not respond favorably to God does not prove he was unable, God's words himself imply Cain was able, and God would KNOW.

 

[Aaron]

Marriage is a picture of Christ and the church, His bride, is it not? When we marry, we have only one bride which we marry, correct? That's the same way with Christ and those He redeemed/redeems. Those who were given to Him, those whom the Father chose from before the foundation of the world. Those whose names were recorded in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world, were given to Christ, the sacrificial lamb, to atone for their sins, to redeem them from among the accursed of the world.


Now, to tie this into this thread. We all, or most all, believe babies who have died, will never taste eternal death. But, we see a babies' fleshly body, and God sees their souls. Their souls aren't like their helpless bodies. If so, then we'd need a nursery to tend to them in heaven. Their souls don't need their parents help to survive, like their fleshly bodies do. I will not lose one iota of sleep when a baby dies, in regards to their eternal destination. I will grieve in that they died the physical death, but I do believe they will be at rest around the throne of God praising Him. I see them as those who God elected/chose from before the foundation of the world(Eph. 1:4).

Willis, your eyes have been opened. :jesus:

 

[Aaron]

This makes no sense and makes mans sinful nature more powerful in resisting the Spirit.

There is a verse one can cite that shatters this premise, and it ain't tucked away somewhere one has to dig. It's on the surface. So elementary one should find it in a child's catechism.

Anyone know what it is?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I am missing your point. It was not directed at Convicted.

Who was it directed at?

 

[pinoybaptist]

Willis, your eyes have been opened. :jesus:

ditto here...do not pick up the scales again and see if they fit your eyes....they have a way of sticking back on their own....lol

 

[percho]

Do you maintain a human can be justified apart from faith? You say you do not concern yourself with it, but isn't that a pretty important thing to not be concerned about?

No, no, no. I am saying a man is justified by the faith of Christ.

To be justified is to be redeemed back from something.

Before the foundation of the world God determined the Christ, as of a lamb with spot and without blemish would shed his precious blood for redemption. Son of the living God would die, see death, for redemption. However death it itself will not bring redemption. Redemption requires life. As Paul states If Christ is not raised, you are still in your sins.

On or about the same time God determined his Son would die, the same God made a promise of the hope of eternal life. This promise is said to have been made before time begin.

Nothing has been created. The only thing this promise could possibly be made for is for that which is determined to die. The Christ.

Gal 3:23 speaks of before the faith came and 3:25 speaks of the faith having come, V24 states that is the faith that justifies.

You are justified by the faithfulness of God in bringing forth his Son born of woman, born under the law, for the purpose of being obedient unto death, with the promise of the hope of eternal life. Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. KJV That is a description of eternal life, is it not?

Faith came when Jesus the Christ was obedient unto death and three days and three nights later, was given by Spirit the God, Holy the promise of God. Eternal life. Jesus of Nazareth, the son of the virgin Mary and the Son of God at that moment became the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.

You can see the faith of Christ and Christ being faith in Matt 26:39 and Hebrews 5:7,8,9

And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

That is obedience unto death and being made perfect by resurrection and becoming the author of eternal salvation. The first to receive.


Someone please show me from scripture where that is not the faith which saves.

Would not any other faith be saving oneself?

Thank God this is Thanksgiving Day. Thank you Lord Jesus.

 

[webdog]

Yes, the issue remains Sola Gratia (by grace alone). To add anything at all to Gods grace is to deny its graciousness ...its very nature as a gift.

To you Willis I am glad to say welcome. "Post tenebras lux" ....after darkness light!

Do you reject the other four Sola's?

 

[percho]

Willis, your eyes have been opened. :jesus:

Amen and Arron may not agree with this but just as those babies were not responsible for their physical birth neither are they responsible for their spiritual birth. And neither is an eighty year old man.

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole of man. Ecc 12:13

Has man done that? Have I done that? NO

And that is why I need a redeemer.

God is doing a work here on the earth.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Unwarranted confidence in human ability is a product of fallen human nature ... God's grace in Christ is not merely necessary but is the sole efficient cause of salvation. We confess that human beings are born spiritually dead and are incapable even of cooperating with regenerating grace. We reaffirm that in salvation we are rescued from God's wrath by his grace alone. It is the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit that brings us to Christ by releasing us from our bondage to sin and raising us from spiritual death to spiritual life. We deny that salvation is in any sense a human work. Human methods, techniques or strategies by themselves cannot accomplish this transformation. Faith is not produced by our unregenerated human nature. - Cambridge Declaration

 

[Winman]

No, no, no. I am saying a man is justified by the faith of Christ.

To be justified is to be redeemed back from something.

Before the foundation of the world God determined the Christ, as of a lamb with spot and without blemish would shed his precious blood for redemption. Son of the living God would die, see death, for redemption. However death it itself will not bring redemption. Redemption requires life. As Paul states If Christ is not raised, you are still in your sins.

On or about the same time God determined his Son would die, the same God made a promise of the hope of eternal life. This promise is said to have been made before time begin.

Nothing has been created. The only thing this promise could possibly be made for is for that which is determined to die. The Christ.

Gal 3:23 speaks of before the faith came and 3:25 speaks of the faith having come, V24 states that is the faith that justifies.

You are justified by the faithfulness of God in bringing forth his Son born of woman, born under the law, for the purpose of being obedient unto death, with the promise of the hope of eternal life. Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. KJV That is a description of eternal life, is it not?

Faith came when Jesus the Christ was obedient unto death and three days and three nights later, was given by Spirit the God, Holy the promise of God. Eternal life. Jesus of Nazareth, the son of the virgin Mary and the Son of God at that moment became the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.

You can see the faith of Christ and Christ being faith in Matt 26:39 and Hebrews 5:7,8,9

And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

That is obedience unto death and being made perfect by resurrection and becoming the author of eternal salvation. The first to receive.

Someone please show me from scripture where that is not the faith which saves.

Would not any other faith be saving oneself?

Thank God this is Thanksgiving Day. Thank you Lord Jesus.

Well, I agree with you that Jesus had faith, I have said that numerous times, and have quoted Luke 23:46;

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Yes, Jesus trusted or believed his Father that if he gave up his life on the cross for our sins, that God the Father would raise him from the dead.

But the reason Jesus HAD to rise from the dead for our sins to be forgiven is that he had to sprinkle his blood on the mercy seat in heaven. If Jesus would have simply died, that would not have saved us. No, that blood had to be sprinkled on the mercy seat in heaven, and so Jesus HAD to be raised from the dead to do this.

But there is more. Romans 5 shows that Adam set a LEGAL PRECEDENT for us. When Adam sinned, his judgment was condemnation to death. And every man since Adam that has sinned as Adam sinned has received the same judgment, condemnation to death.

Likewise, Jesus set a LEGAL PRECEDENT for faith. Every person who believes the Father by trusting Jesus as Jesus also trusted his Father is imputed righteous.

Legal Precedent
1.
a. An act or instance that may be used as an example in dealing with subsequent similar instances.
b. Law A judicial decision that may be used as a standard in subsequent similar cases: a landmark decision that set a legal precedent.

If a person realizes that Paul is speaking of a legal precedent in Romans 5:12-21, it all becomes amazingly simple and clear to understand this passage.

So yes, when Jesus believed and obeyed his Father unto death he achieved perfect righteousness and received the promise of the Holy Spirit.

Likewise, when we believe and obey the Father by trusting on Jesus we are imputed righteous and receive the promise of the Holy Spirit.

But we must believe with our own faith, God does not believe for you.

Likewise, Adam's sin is not simply imputed us, we must personally sin as he did. Adam did not sin FOR us.

 

[percho]

Well, I agree with you that Jesus had faith, I have said that numerous times, and have quoted Luke 23:46;

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Yes, Jesus trusted or believed his Father that if he gave up his life on the cross for our sins, that God the Father would raise him from the dead.

But the reason Jesus HAD to rise from the dead for our sins to be forgiven is that he had to sprinkle his blood on the mercy seat in heaven. If Jesus would have simply died, that would not have saved us. No, that blood had to be sprinkled on the mercy seat in heaven, and so Jesus HAD to be raised from the dead to do this.

But there is more. Romans 5 shows that Adam set a LEGAL PRECEDENT for us. When Adam sinned, his judgment was condemnation to death. And every man since Adam that has sinned as Adam sinned has received the same judgment, condemnation to death.

Likewise, Jesus set a LEGAL PRECEDENT for faith. Every person who believes the Father by trusting Jesus as Jesus also trusted his Father is imputed righteous.



If a person realizes that Paul is speaking of a legal precedent in Romans 5:12-21, it all becomes amazingly simple and clear to understand this passage.

So yes, when Jesus believed and obeyed his Father unto death he achieved perfect righteousness and received the promise of the Holy Spirit.

Likewise, when we believe and obey the Father by trusting on Jesus we are imputed righteous and receive the promise of the Holy Spirit.

But we must believe with our own faith, God does not believe for you.

Likewise, Adam's sin is not simply imputed us, we must personally sin as he did. Adam did not sin FOR us.

Winman I would like to look at what you said above concerning the blood and the mercy seat. For I agree with you and ask you to look it that from my viewpoint of the faith/faithfulness of God and Christ becoming that faith.

Read every commentary you can find concerning Romans 3:25 and you will see it is a passage that was difficult to translate and therefore to understand.

YLT whom God did set forth a mercy seat, through the faith in his blood, for the shewing forth of His righteousness, because of the passing over of the bygone sins in the forbearance of God --

God purposed the Christ, Jesus - When was this purposed made? Before the foundation of the world.

What was he purposed as? a mercy seat - a place of mercy - a propitiation

What did God before the foundation of the world base this upon? The faith, the belief in the blood of him. The belief that the one who would come from him through a woman, taken from man created in his image, but yet to be created, would be obedient unto shedding his innocent blood that contained his life.

God therefore made a promise.

Our sin is not imputed to us Rom 4:8 because the Son of God died for us therefore was raised from the dead through that resurrected life the righteousness of God is imputed to us.

It is imputed to us through the faith of Jesus. Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference

Now I understand you will say, well there it is. You receive the righteousness of God because you believe.

I believe scripture calls one unto belief and becomes so be being given the Spirit of Truth.

Paul was: And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink. And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

And Ananias went away, and did enter into the house, and having put upon him his hands, said, 'Saul, brother, the Lord hath sent me -- Jesus who did appear to thee in the way in which thou wast coming -- that thou mayest see again, and mayest be filled with the Holy Spirit.'

Saul has been given the Spirit of truth by which he can now believe.

And immediately there fell from his eyes as it were scales, he saw again also presently, and having risen, was baptized, and having received nourishment, was strengthened, and Saul was with the disciples in Damascus certain days, and immediately in the synagogues he was preaching the Christ, that he is the Son of God.