Inherited sin nature is wrong.

True. But the question is what the Psalmist says, not what you think Romans says, or you think Isaiah says or anything else.

But it doesn't all contain the sum total of all doctrines and ideas in each passage, nor should you import them into any given passage.

I know, you already assume you know everything with a high degree of confidence. You repeatedly tell us that on a regular basis.

So, you assert regularly to all of us.
You are also often quite mistaken, as you are here.

Correct, and you are involved in eisegesis when you import Isaiah, Romans Proverbs or anything else into a Psalm written anywhere from 400-1,000 years later.

True, but you are pretending any given part contains a "whole" when it doesn't.

When a given passage of Scripture says nothing about the topic you are concerned with....it can't be forced into the text. You are doing that, and that is eisegesis.

And you've been doing it wrong.
Decades of bad habits don't strengthen your case, they just reinforce decades of bad habits. And, unfortunately, give you a false sense of your own understanding.

You disagree because you are not trained in basic Bible Interpretation, or, you at least appear not to be.
Anyone who is, who considers that passage in any detail would know you are interpreting it wrongly.
Something like this might help: Itroduction to Biblical Interpretation: 3rd Edition / Special edition

You should, that's good exegesis.

But, you obviously get quite confused about what it says, because you keep insisting it says things it doesn't actually say.
If David (in this case) doesn't say what you wanted him to say....you are simply making Paul or Isaiah say it for him because you want David to say something he isn't saying. That's eisegesis.

No, the author is David.
You think what you said is pious...but, it's bad hermeneutic.

Sure, then argue your anthropology from the relevant passages like a decent exegete

Sure, then use the New if you think it makes your case, this Psalm doesn't.

 

If you say so.
I understand it the way I do, and you are free to understand it the way you do.

I'm confident that what God has shown me, thus far, is correct, and I'm not ashamed to be honest about it.
I'm also not saying that I know everything there is to know about Scripture.
He still has much to show me, yet.

But I get the impression from many on here, that anyone who claims to understand God's word is assumed to be lying, because most people can't seem to understand it without the help of other men or institutions of men.
It's God's word, and it is intended for His children.

So, if I may be so bold, what exactly is the problem?
Is there some reason you don't think someone cannot confidently say that they understand it, for the most part?
Do you think that it's somehow hidden, or requires a "degree in Bible" in order to properly get there?

Because it doesn't, and it never did.

With respect, says you.
I happen to think that you are gravely mistaken as well...but me telling you won't make any difference, because the Lord is the only one you will believe.

I just hope, for your sake, that you don't hear this:
Matthew 7:21-23.

Again, your opinion versus mine.
You have the right to assert what you wish, the same as I do.

Once again, your opinion.
To me, it has as much weight as anyone else's on this forum.
You have your understanding of God's word, and I have mine.


I'm answering you out of my understanding of it.

 

Hold the phone...

You mean to tell me that people need to be trained by other men in order to properly "interpret" God's word?
A book that was written exclusively for His children ( Romans 15:4 )?
The Lord tells me not to rely on men or even myself ( Proverbs 3:5-6 ) because He is my Teacher ( 1 John 2:20-27 ).
He also tells me not to trust them above Him in any way ( Psalms 118:8 ).

So what in the world makes you think that I need a mediator between myself and God's word, other than Christ Himself?
Do you honestly believe that I somehow need a man or group of men to tell me how to understand my Saviour's words?

Where did you get this idea at, if you don't mind my asking?
Because it definitely wasn't the Bible.

Again, I couldn't care less about "authorial intent".
My focus is on believing the words in context with each other, and with regard to other passages.

If you say so.

I disagree.

The Author of all Scripture is the Holy Ghost ( 2 Timothy 3:16 ).
As I see it, you are overlooking what the Book specifically states.
It has nothing to do with being "pious".

Incidentally, I don't put any stock in "hermeneutics", because they are man-made and vary depending on which group or institution teaches them.
The Holy Ghost is the only "hermeneutic" that I need.

Do you somehow think that you need more than God's Spirit to properly understand His words?
Respectfully, I do not.


I'm satisfied that I have everything I need from my Saviour to fully understand, at least someday, all of His words.

 

Just because you say it doesn't, has no more or no less bearing than someone who tells me that it does ( and there are those here that agree with my usage of it, even if you do not ), or even my own opinion of it.
I'll be convinced as I wish to be, and you can be convinced as you wish to be.

That is your prerogative, sir.
With that said, I wish you well, and this is my last reply to you in this thread.




May God bless you in many ways.

 

But if we don't agree on what it is saying than we cannot say we are "understanding" it differently. Either one or both of us is wrong.
You aren't a relativist I'm sure. We are disagreeing on it's meaning, we aren't both "understanding" it differently.

Anyone can draw out the basic Biblical story, the path to salvation, the need for believing loyalty in Christ, the resurrection etc. But without some guidance, training and accountability... lone wolves tend to get off track and continue on wrong-headed paths which gender confusion.
You seem to think that no one can really help you understand better (or you seem to have suggested that before) and that you, your Bible and the Holy Spirit are all that you need to remain error free. That is not the way God made us, and it doesn't work that way. Many a people with absurd doctrines, flat-earth Theology etc. think precisely that way.

No, not necessarily, but I wouldn't despise those who encourage you to learn from them.

There's the real Dave Gilbert.....Close nearly every post with something like:
"May God richly, bless you, your family and cause his gracious loving face to warmly shine upon you and your house good sir!!

Then, someone doesn't agree with you, you, consign them to hell. How nice!

 

It would help immensely, and God has established specifically gifted men whose calling it is to help us with just that very thing.

You don't need a mediator, but it would help you to learn how not to treat the Bible like a patch-work quilt to stitch together as you think best and instead understand what is being said.

All of us do sometimes.

I have gotten the idea that Teddy Roosevelt was a president of the United States and that in base ten, the sum of two and two is four.
I got neither of those ideas from the Scripture.

You should, otherwise it's Dave's intent no matter how well meaning copy/pasting ideas onto any text at any time like a patchwork quilt according to how he thinks best.

Except that passage doesn't say the Holy Ghost is the author.
That's the view of inspiration held by Islam or the Koran.
Inspiration didn't work that way....even that passage, if you study it more closely excludes that idea.

That is true to some extent, so one must be careful who they learn from, but that doesn't mean leaning upon your own understanding is better.
That is essentially what you are doing, leaning on your own private understanding and refusing to seek counsel and greater learning.

There's no passage which teaches that, only passages that you think teach that.
The "Holy Ghost" you think you hear from, can just as easily be your own presuppositions and the influence of your own mind or the philosophies you gleaned in the past.
By assuming you pretty much got it all licked, and then assuming your confidence MUST be the affirmation of the Holy Spirit is dangerous....
It is also what makes charismatics so dangerous and difficult to correct.
Their own mind is the Holy Spirit to them, much as, it seems, your own private interpretations seem to be to you.

Yes.
Sometimes, especially with certain passages, all of us do.
Ask anyone with a degree from a serious seminary etc....
The Holy Spirit doesn't teach you about the geography of the near middle east. He doesn't teach you the original languages and when an author is using a play on words or even rhyming unrelated similar sounding words to make a point. The Holy Spirit doesn't teach you the rules for different genres of literature and what you should be looking for in any given type of literature. Nor does he teach you the customs and social mores of the different societies which provided the cultural backdrop for the writing of those texts. All of those help immensely and can prevent bad hermeneutic.

That is sad, because you are missing a lot, and instead of leaning on the instruction of others who have spent lifetimes professionally studying the text you are as I see it, leaning upon your own understanding and calling your own understanding the Holy Spirit.

 

Regardless of this argument. What makes you think that the opinions of others so called "Gifted men " take the place of scripture or helps you to understand what any child can understand. There is nothing complicated in scripture. It's not advanced Calculus we are talking about When my grand daughter was 10 years old she had a good understanding of scripture. If one needs understanding, God is the answer not men no matter how gifted the man. If the men who are suppose to be so gifted you would think they would know that the Bible has all the answers we need and prayer is always the answer for understanding not men.

Speaking of prayer being such a powerful tool. I've had many questions about scripture over the past 60 years and everyone of them were answered by God through His word. When I ask I receive. God is more than generous to those who are seeking to know the truth. He doesn't hide a thing from those who seek Him unless it isn't meant to be revealed until it's time. Such as when Christ will return.
I quote scripture sometimes only one verse ,but you imply one verse doesn't give the whole truth. Well you're wrong. Verses like Jn 3 16 is very clear Verses like Act 16:31 there are many and it is always up to the listener or reader to look it up to see if it agrees with what is being said about the verse.

Hermeneutics are a good example of the doctrines of men. Those who rely on it are leaning on men instead of God. It seems they misunderstand alright. Believe me it is far better to lean on God alone.

MB

 

I don't think that.
I didn't say that.

When it comes to many, many texts of Scripture, no child, and very few adults really understand them.
Sometimes it takes work and a lot of it.

Statements like this make me wonder whether you've really ever read it seriously before.
That statement is patently absurd.

No, it's complex argumentation or narrative or poetry written thousands of years ago in a different time and place in a completely different cultural mileu….and that takes serious scholarship to understand sometimes.

Some things are simpler than others and no doubt your granddaughter understood quite a bit about it and all the Cardinaldoctrines of the faith.
My ten-year old daughter does as well. That doesn't mean she understands what Rachel's teraphim were which Lot came after her for, or what the story of the she-bears mauling the "children"' who called Elisha "bald head" is all about.
and no, simply reading Scripture over and over Holy Spirit or not isn't going to explain it to either her or you.
My guess is, neither of you likely understand what is really going on there if you haven't had gifted men who have some understanding of the original language (and the geography) to flesh those things out.

Your statements sound fideistic and pious, but they are wrong and anti-intellectual. They do not help the body with the more difficult passages of Scripture.

Unless, the Scriptures are consulted, which specifically state that we are to study to shew ourselves approved as a workman.

They do know that.
But, they also know that those who despise learning don't understand it....

And using the gifts God gave us such as the capacity for study and hard work.
Prayer doesn't replace that, and God won't reward laziness with knowledge.

Pietistic hog-wash.
You can believe that all you want.
What it really is is intellectual laziness masquerading as faith.

Hermeneutics isn't a doctrine.....
Either of men or anyone else.
If you bothered studying it, you would know that.

How would anyone who doesn't bother to study it know that?
And why should they be believed?
If you bothered researching it a little you would know full well that it is a tool.
It isn't a faith+Holy Spirit illumination issue vs. man's effort+philosophy issue.

It's a both-and issue.

They don't work against each other.
There are those who study and pray with faith
And there are those who study and pray with faith and a lot of hard work attempting to learn how to best understand the Scriputre and how Biblical interpretation works.
The latter has more tools than the other and thus understands Scripture far better.

God does not reward willful ignorance or sloth with greater knowledge.

 

My take on this is that Adam's sin brought physical and spiritual death into the world for the first time. We all inherit Adam's judgement (death), not Adam's guilt. However, since we all have sinned ourselves, we are guilty in and of ourselves.

God said "for dust you are and to dust you will return." God himself caused the first death - the animals He killed to cover Adam and Eve with skins. Even here, we see an atonement.. a substitution's life to cover for man's sin.

This is the curse. God has not yet rescinded the curse. The curse is death, it is not sin. It doesn't say "for a sinner you are and a sinner you will become" or something similar. However, we do see spiritual separation in that Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden.

This judgement God proclaimed on Adam was a corporate judgement. It affected the whole universe. It was not an individual judgement because it also included the physical world, plants, animals, Adam and Eve. This judgement has proven to be justified in that all have sinned and none are worthy to repeal the corporate judgement... none till Christ, that is.

When Christ came, He was sinless, and His righteousness necessitates a repeal of the corporate judgement in lieu of individual judgments. This is why the scripture says that ALL will be resurrected as result of Christ - the sinners and the saints. Then all will face a second, individual judgement. Those who have not inherited the righteousness of Christ will die a second death.

 

Yes, without question being it was the preincarnate Son of God who spoke in Genesis 3:22.

In His incarnation He was fully man from Adam (Luke 3:38), yet without sin Himself (Hebrews 4:15). What I think should be noted is what caused mankind to have a sinful nature was part of is divine nature He brought with Him into His incarnation (Genesis 3:22).

 

I think Death is the root cause of the sin nature... or more specifically, our feath of death.

[Heb 2:14-16 NASB] 14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.​

Our fear of death subjects us to "slavery". We are in "slavery" to the sin nature.

Jhn 8:34
Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.​

[Rom 7:23-25 NASB] 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Rom 8:15
For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”

1Jo 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.​

I think it is our fear of death which enslaves us to the Sin Nature. (i.e. we are afraid of starving, so we steal food... we are afraid of pain, so we do what feels good to our flesh) This is why our redeemed, alive spirit is free to experience the divine nature. For the Christian, dual natures exist.

 

I think you meant fear of death. It could be part of it. I believe it's our flesh. The flesh does what it like's best that is our carnal flesh. It always want's it's way. rarely if ever given to kindness. Let's face it the lost give Satan a good run for his office.
MB

 

Romans 7:17-18 (NASB) 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

Romans 7:25 (NASB) Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Ephesians 2:3 (NASB)
Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Romans 8:10 (NASB) If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Paul has a really interesting discourse on self identification in Rom 7&8. He describes the dual natures within the believer battling for control of the mind... sin in the flesh & the divine nature.

Interestingly he “self-identifies” his true self as being his righteousness, inner man, but says it is sin in him that desires evil (not his “true self”). He says this identity in Christ is how we “set our minds on the things of the spirit.”

2 Peter 1:4 (NASB)
For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of [the] divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

 

Adam had no sin nature, yet chose to sin anyway. Adam wasn’t individually judged for his sin, but all aspects of nature are now under the curse of death... God judged the earth, he judged plants, and he judged animals as well as a result of Adams sin despite the fact that the universe did not sin against God, only Adam sinned (and Eve, though she was deceived).

The concept of original sin as held by many is interesting in that if Adam were ever to be forgiven, it would lift the curse for all of creation, not just those who sinned.

I believe that is exactly why ALL people will be resurrected to face individual judgements.

Acts 24:15 (NASB)
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

 

Seems an aweful waste of Jesus claiming the promised land as an eternal inheritance only to abandon it and live in heaven forever.

Nah, we’ll live here on a new earth for eternity, not floating in the clouds.

 

All who are redeemed are now in Christ, all the rest still lost and in Adam!