Inherited sin nature is wrong.

[loDebar]

All who are redeemed are now in Christ, all the rest still lost and in Adam!

Why in Adam? They are just lost, because we are condemned already. We are not condemned through Adam.

The point was many are saved through Christ, the physical death of Adam vs the spiritual life of Christ

 

[Yeshua1]

Why in Adam? They are just lost, because we are condemned already. We are not condemned through Adam.

The point was many are saved through Christ, the physical death of Adam vs the spiritual life of Christ

All of human were born in Adam, as already spiritual dead and condemned in Him, when we received Jesus as Lord, became spiritually alive again in Christ!

 

[loDebar]

When was Adam condemned?

 

[MB]

Adam had no sin nature, yet chose to sin anyway. Adam wasn’t individually judged for his sin, but all aspects of nature are now under the curse of death... God judged the earth, he judged plants, and he judged animals as well as a result of Adams sin despite the fact that the universe did not sin against God, only Adam sinned (and Eve, though she was deceived).

The concept of original sin as held by many is interesting in that if Adam were ever to be forgiven, it would lift the curse for all of creation, not just those who sinned.

I believe that is exactly why ALL people will be resurrected to face individual judgements.

Acts 24:15 (NASB)
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Adam being put out of the garden was Adam's punishment Having to till the ground that would resist Adam. It was a blessing for Adam to live in the garden. Everything was lush and yielding of fruit. Quite different when he was expelled. You said Adam didn't have a sin nature but your wrong if it wasn't his nature to sin he would not have sinned. The fact is Adam loved Eve more than God. He could not bare to loose her and is why he ate the fruit. Most likely he didn't think God would punish him. Yet God did punish him. Growing your own food is a lot harder than picking what was in the garden naturally.
MB

 

[MB]

True. But the question is what the Psalmist says, not what you think Romans says, or you think Isaiah says or anything else.

But it doesn't all contain the sum total of all doctrines and ideas in each passage, nor should you import them into any given passage.

I know, you already assume you know everything with a high degree of confidence. You repeatedly tell us that on a regular basis.

So, you assert regularly to all of us.
You are also often quite mistaken, as you are here.

Correct, and you are involved in eisegesis when you import Isaiah, Romans Proverbs or anything else into a Psalm written anywhere from 400-1,000 years later.

True, but you are pretending any given part contains a "whole" when it doesn't.

When a given passage of Scripture says nothing about the topic you are concerned with....it can't be forced into the text. You are doing that, and that is eisegesis.

And you've been doing it wrong.
Decades of bad habits don't strengthen your case, they just reinforce decades of bad habits. And, unfortunately, give you a false sense of your own understanding.

You disagree because you are not trained in basic Bible Interpretation, or, you at least appear not to be.
Anyone who is, who considers that passage in any detail would know you are interpreting it wrongly.
Something like this might help: Itroduction to Biblical Interpretation: 3rd Edition / Special edition

You should, that's good exegesis.

But, you obviously get quite confused about what it says, because you keep insisting it says things it doesn't actually say.
If David (in this case) doesn't say what you wanted him to say....you are simply making Paul or Isaiah say it for him because you want David to say something he isn't saying. That's eisegesis.

No, the author is David.
You think what you said is pious...but, it's bad hermeneutic.

Sure, then argue your anthropology from the relevant passages like a decent exegete

Sure, then use the New if you think it makes your case, this Psalm doesn't.

All of scripture proves and interprets it self. one passage does not contradict another.
How is it that only you have the correct means to understand scripture? I've read several of your post and frankly I'm not impressed with people who believe themselves to be superior in knowledge. The wise didn't impress Christ either.
MB

 

[loDebar]

Adam being put out of the garden was Adam's punishment Having to till the ground that would resist Adam. It was a blessing for Adam to live in the garden. Everything was lush and yielding of fruit. Quite different when he was expelled. You said Adam didn't have a sin nature but your wrong if it wasn't his nature to sin he would not have sinned. The fact is Adam loved Eve more than God. He could not bare to loose her and is why he ate the fruit. Most likely he didn't think God would punish him. Yet God did punish him. Growing your own food is a lot harder than picking what was in the garden naturally.
MB

I did not say Adam did not sin. I said You do not sin because of Adam. Adam did not have a sin nature no more than you, He chose to sin, you do too.
He was condemned a a spiritual being before he sinned as a physical.
Eden was the same as your infant hood .

 

[loDebar]

All of scripture proves and interprets it self. one passage does not contradict another.
How is it that only you have the correct means to understand scripture? I've read several of your post and frankly I'm not impressed with people who believe themselves to be superior in knowledge. The wise didn't impress Christ either.
MB

I am trained to ask questions and God made me so that everything must fit together, esp.HIS WORD.

You, or We Baptists are being trained to move to Humanism in doctrine.

 

[MB]

I am trained to ask questions and God made me so that everything must fit together, esp.HIS WORD.

You, or We Baptists are being trained to move to Humanism in doctrine.

I reject Humanism. It's on television all the time. The media even tries to influence the vote for the sole purpose of of socialism. Everywhere we look some government is trying to control our thoughts. Trying to control what we think and what we believe. I'm very aware of it. They even use post hypnotic suggestions that most are completely unaware of. I first became aware of it back in the 60"s I studied physiology for a short time in which I was introduced to hypnotism. I studied it just long enough to see that what the public knows about it isn't true. They try to tell you that you want do anything under hypnosis that you wouldn't do normally. But this is not so. It all depends on the illusion the hypnotist places it your mind. to get you to obey his will. He can create scenarios in your mind that would cause you to do what they want. Even murder.

Governments have been using such methods for a very long time. There is no end to what they will do to cease control of the people. After all they can't do what they want if they can't get the peoples approval so they use mind control or fear. Either way they will eventually win because the public is unaware.
I'm sure there will be some call this post a conspiracy theory. Only because they are unaware.
MB

 

[MB]

I did not say Adam did not sin. I said You do not sin because of Adam. Adam did not have a sin nature no more than you, He chose to sin, you do too.
He was condemned a a spiritual being before he sinned as a physical.
Eden was the same as your infant hood .

We all choose to sin other wise it would not be sin. if we were forced .
MB

 

[loDebar]

We all choose to sin other wise it would not be sin. if we were forced .
MB

This choice to do bad is what is being called a sin nature, it is bad selfish side of free choice

 

[loDebar]

I reject Humanism. It's on television all the time. The media even tries to influence the vote for the sole purpose of of socialism. Everywhere we look some government is trying to control our thoughts. Trying to control what we think and what we believe. I'm very aware of it. They even use post hypnotic suggestions that most are completely unaware of. I first became aware of it back in the 60"s I studied physiology for a short time in which I was introduced to hypnotism. I studied it just long enough to see that what the public knows about it isn't true. They try to tell you that you want do anything under hypnosis that you wouldn't do normally. But this is not so. It all depends on the illusion the hypnotist places it your mind. to get you to obey his will. He can create scenarios in your mind that would cause you to do what they want. Even murder.

Governments have been using such methods for a very long time. There is no end to what they will do to cease control of the people. After all they can't do what they want if they can't get the peoples approval so they use mind control or fear. Either way they will eventually win because the public is unaware.
I'm sure there will be some call this post a conspiracy theory. Only because they are unaware.
MB

If you have in anyway subscribed to the human condition being better than the spiritual, that is humanism.

Do you believe man is a favorite creation? Do you believe the image of God enhances mankind?
Is the Blood of Jesus different than ours? Return to Eden? etc. there are many more

The bias toward Humanism has permeated doctrine

 

[Gup20]

He will keep His promises to the Hebrews, in the Millennial reign bur this Heaven and earth will be destroyed.

Sounds like Jehovah witness

Sure, just like the earth was "new" after the Flood. But next time, it will be renewed by fire, not water.

2Pe 3:5-7 NASB
5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God [the] heavens existed long ago and [the] earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.​

Destroyed doesn't seem to mean "annihilated", but rather re-formed. If I sound like a Jehovah's witness, it's merely a coincidence.

All who are redeemed are now in Christ, all the rest still lost and in Adam!

I agree in part and disagree in part. I agree that all who are in Christ are redeemed, and the rest are lost. However, I have an issue with the timing.

We are not yet fully redeemed. We have a placeholder... a pledge of the full inheritance yet to come at the resurrection.

Eph 1:13-14 NASB
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.​

The regeneration we get through the Holy Spirit is merely a PLEDGE of the full redemption to come at the resurrection where our spirit (which has been made alive in Christ) will be joined with a living, resurrected, and redeemed body of flesh making us whole again.

We know that we have not yet obtained full redemption because we still have a consciousness of sins.

Heb 10:1-2 NASB
1 For the Law, since it has [only] a shadow of the good things to come [and] not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins?​

Phl 3:9-13 NASB
9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from [the] Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which [comes] from God on the basis of faith, 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained [it] or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of [it] yet; but one thing [I do:] forgetting what [lies] behind and reaching forward to what [lies] ahead,
​

Consider the following apparent contradiction:

Numbers 14:18
The LORD is slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generations.

Ezekiel 18:20
The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.​

This is only a contradiction if you believe these to coincide with the same point in time. However, Numbers is The Law and Ezekiel is future prophecy. This makes perfect sense if Adam's judgement is corporate, but this universal judgment is repealed in the future in lieu of individual judgments. Under the corporate judgment, all are punished by the one and same death which came as result of Adam's sin (Rom 5:12). But under the individual judgement, all are judged for their own sin... it is in the individual judgement where Christ's righteousness covers us... not in the corporate judgement.

Rom 5:16-18 NASB
16 The gift is not like [that which came] through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment [arose] from one [transgression] resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift [arose] from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

1Co 15:21-22 NASB
21 For since by a man [came] death, by a man also [came] the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.​

Note how it compares and contrasts. In Romans 5 verse 16 it says how salvation and the fall are NOT alike, but in verse 18 it says how they ARE alike. They are NOT similar in that in Adam one sin resulted universal corporate condemnation of everything, whereas in Christ many individual sins are covered. If Christ's redemption were corporate rather than individual (so if Christ's redemption was LIKE Adam's sin) then all Christ would have to do is forgive ANY ONE PERSON in history. If all were guilty in Adam, then forgiving any one of them would be the same as forgiving the corporate sin itself... this would forgive everyone simultaneously. But we know that not all will be forgiven. Yet all will be resurrected.

However, what happens is Adam's JUDGEMENT is repealed. This necessarily resurrects each and every human being (including those who've been aborted, I imagine). The corporate judgement is replaced with an individual judgement. This is why verse 18 says it is "as" through one transgression condemnation resulted to all men, so too in one act of righteousness there resulted in justification of life to all men. Christ and His righteousness is applied individually (on the basis of many transgressions, not on the basis of the one transgression). Therefore, we know that Christ's righteousness isn't the answer for the corporate judgment, but for the individual judgement.

John 5:28
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Daniel 12:1
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
​

 

[Gup20]

BTW -- One thing I forgot to mention is that Christ's righteousness itself was the answer to the corporate judgement of Adam. The fact that there was 1 righteous person necessitated the repeal of the corporate judgment so that all might be judged individually. I think that is the message of these passages:

Rom 5:14 NASB
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Rev 5:1-7 NASB
1 I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?" 3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it. 4 Then I [began] to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; 5 and one of the elders said to me, "Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals." 6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. 7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.​

 

[loDebar]

parerchomai does not mean reformed

Luk 21:33
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

This is not Heaven, God's abode but the physical universe

All new

Rev 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

The old is gone

Numbers should not be compared to Ezekiel, Numbers is written the Israel as a nation and the blessings promised to preserve that nation. The Law is only for the Jews from Moses to Jesus.
Ezekiel was written to the sinful Jews at that time but the concept covers all sin

Ezekiel show exactly why there is no inherited sin nature from Adam . We have the choice to sin as we have the choice not to, Our bad choices are called sin nature. but it is just bad choices

 

[loDebar]

BTW -- One thing I forgot to mention is that Christ's righteousness itself was the answer to the corporate judgement of Adam. The fact that there was 1 righteous person necessitated the repeal of the corporate judgment so that all might be judged individually. I think that is the message of these passages:

Rom 5:14 NASB
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Rev 5:1-7 NASB
1 I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?" 3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it. 4 Then I [began] to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; 5 and one of the elders said to me, "Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals." 6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. 7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.​

Who judged Adam?

 

[Gup20]

Who judged Adam?

The same one who cursed and judged Christ with death.

 

[Yeshua1]

parerchomai does not mean reformed

Luk 21:33
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

This is not Heaven, God's abode but the physical universe

All new

Rev 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

The old is gone

Numbers should not be compared to Ezekiel, Numbers is written the Israel as a nation and the blessings promised to preserve that nation. The Law is only for the Jews from Moses to Jesus.
Ezekiel was written to the sinful Jews at that time but the concept covers all sin

Ezekiel show exactly why there is no inherited sin nature from Adam . We have the choice to sin as we have the choice not to, Our bad choices are called sin nature. but it is just bad choices

Jeremiah stated to us the viewpoint of God that we all have wicked and deceitful hearts/natures, and that Paul agreed with him on that!

 

[HeirofSalvation]

All of scripture proves and interprets it self. one passage does not contradict another.
How is it that only you have the correct means to understand scripture? I've read several of your post and frankly I'm not impressed with people who believe themselves to be superior in knowledge. The wise didn't impress Christ either.
MB

Frankly, you don't know me at all.
I claim no special knowledge.
I don't think I.....especially "ALONE" have the correct means to understand Scripture.

I am arguing that more educated men have helped me immensely, and if you had humility you could benefit from it too.

I don't think I'm "wise"....I think that I've been arguing that wiser men are helpful, and you are, and have been, arguing that you understand Scripture without the aid of people who have spent lifetimes mastering the craft.

You are trying to reverse the argument.
I'm not stupid.

This doesn't fly.

You are arguing that you only need you and Jesus.
I'm saying you need to put effort into it and seek help from people who have spent decades mastering it professionally as a craft.

I accept that help...
You think you can master it without effort.
Try again.
I'm not buying this trash, and no one else is either.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

All of scripture proves and interprets it self. one passage does not contradict another.

Duh....
Everyone knows that...Please tell me you didn't slay trillions of innocent electrons to make this rather obvious and stupid point.

How is it that only you have the correct means to understand scripture?

I don't think that.

YOU THINK THAT.
You don't need the countless hours of people spending lifetimes mastering the craft of Bible study...
I like their efforts.
You despise them, because like every charismatic illiterate, all you need is "Prayer, you, the Holy Spirit and JEEZUS!!"
I like the work of men who spend lifetimes studying Scripture, you are despising their hard work.

I've read several of your post and frankly I'm not impressed with people who believe themselves to be superior in knowledge.

That's you.

You claim you and your own personal JEEEEZZUUUS!!! Is all you need.
It's an arrogant and sinful view, and you have argued it.

I argue otherwise....I argue that I often benefit greatly from the effort of men who have spent decades professionally mastering the craft of Biblical Interpretation.
You despise their efforts and assume you don't need any help.

I appreciate the hard work of gifted men, and encourage others to benefit from their labours.

You are arguing that you and your granddaughter don't need anyone's help...
You are, in effect arguing that you and you alone have all knowledge and assume precisely what you are accusing me of.
The situation is precisely the opposite of what you suggest.
You think you need no one.

I don't .

The wise didn't impress Christ either.

Then accept the encouragement from Godly men who have spent lifetimes studying the Scripture and stop arguing that MB knows everything without anyone else's help.
You are the self-proclaimed "know-it-all" who doesn't need help.

Physician, heal thyself.

 

[Gup20]

Frankly, you don't know me at all.
I claim no special knowledge.
I don't think I.....especially "ALONE" have the correct means to understand Scripture.

I am arguing that more educated men have helped me immensely, and if you had humility you could benefit from it too.

I don't think I'm "wise"....I think that I've been arguing that wiser men are helpful, and you are, and have been, arguing that you understand Scripture without the aid of people who have spent lifetimes mastering the craft.

You are trying to reverse the argument.
I'm not stupid.

This doesn't fly.

You are arguing that you only need you and Jesus.
I'm saying you need to put effort into it and seek help from people who have spent decades mastering it professionally as a craft.

I accept that help...
You think you can master it without effort.
Try again.
I'm not buying this trash, and no one else is either.

My take on this discussion is that it is the Holy Spirit's job to reveal truth, and he can do that regardless of whom is speaking, or if one is going to scripture for themselves. For me, the greatest revelations I've had have come while reading the Bible for myself, and hearing a still small voice inside tell me something new and amazing. However, I have also learned a great deal from others.

Paul referred to the revelation of the spirit several times in his writings... for example:

Gal 1:12
For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.​

The Holy Spirit's job is to teach us the Truth from God. I think many people take offense to the notion that any man can stand in place of the Holy Spirit.

Jhn 16:13
“But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.​

But God does uses people, and the Holy Spirit can work through anything anyone says (to either convict us of truth or convict us of error).

The problem is when we become dogmatic about a man and trust a doctrine because it came from the man we follow rather than listening for the corroboration of the Holy Spirit within us teaching us to discern if what is being said rings true or not. It's a sort of theological laziness that allows many to be lead astray by a man. Just because someone is theologically learned doesn't make them wise... just makes them trained (or at best, knowledgeable). If they are trained in a lie, it just means they will be really good at telling the lie.

Personally, I find it sharpening and useful to talk about things with others. Reading the Bible gives me the best insight, but it's foolish to think that God has never revealed truth to anyone else. The trick is listening more to the Holy Spirit and discerning for truth in what is being discussed than treating what comes from other people as gospel.