Ezeckiel 37-38, Zechariah 13:1/Romans 11:26
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"Interpretation" in 2 Peter 1:20-21
- Thread starter John of Japan
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Sorry, but this is still pretty general. You appear to be thinking of some passage in particular, but I can't guess what it is.
Oh, my, there are so many. How about Is. 9:7, where the Messiah will sit on the throne of David? Or the abomination of desolations in Daniel 12? I could list many more, but the preterist usually just says either that they were all (really? all?) fulfilled in AD 70, or that they are all metaphorically fulfilled by "the church," a nebulous construct that will only occur in Heaven. (I'm a local church man).
How about, per them, the Manof Sin was somehow suppossed to be referring to someone in thje Body of Christ, as the temple is that of the Body?
Nope. Can't see that one. That presupposes that Daniel was not talking about Israel, but of course he was.
So to confound the preterists and other allegorical interpreters, we have many of Daniel's prophecies about Israel and the world being fulfilled literally (four kingdoms, etc.), but then they would have us believe that in the midst of all of the the literal fulfillments, anything future about Israel was about the church, and not literal.
Jesus - Mat. 21
43 ‘Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44 Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.’
45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them. 46 They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet.
45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them. 46 They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet.
The Jewish leadership & those who rejected their Messiah would perish - AD 70.
The people receiving the kingdom of God would be the Jews who repented & followed God's appointed leaders - the Apostles, leading the holy nation, aka the church which would then comprise both believing Jews & Gentiles. (1 Peter 2)
Peter confirms that the rebellious nation would be destroyed - Acts 3 -
22 For Moses said, “The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.”
As does Paul in 1 Thes. 2 -
16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.
Gabriel quotes Isaiah 9 to Mary in Luke 1. Peter declares that Jesus was raised up to sit on David's throne in Acts 2. Jesus is not waiting to sit on David's throne but the prophets speaks of Christ - also Jer. 23.
I don't see (partial) Preterism being relevant. Paul certainly speaks of the household of God (aka the church) being the dwellinng of God by his Spirit, as the fulfilment of God's purposes - the mystery - Eph. 2:19-22, 3:2-6.
The present spiritual kingdom is a time of God's patience, as he calls out his elect from Israel & the nations. At his coming at the end of time we will see the ultimate fulfilment of prophecy - the NH&NE.
There confusion comes about due to them denying God has ANY future dealings with national israel, as to them AD 70 meant oevr and down. period.
To be fair, Paul said:
2 Thes. 2
4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God,
Paul's understanding was not the physical temple, but the Body of Christ--the Temple of God--the Bride of Christ.
1 Cor. 3
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
How can a man of Sin arise in ones own body?
So he would be the Pope, the Vicar of Christ?
that could be one interpretation
How does this relate to Daniel or Isaiah?
No, the passage does not say that the nation of Israel will be permanently destroyed. You are reading your view into the passage.
That should be Matt. 1. So what is the relevance of this quote?
But Peter did not specifically say that it was time for that.
I don't know these acronyms.
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Neither did I.
I said, "The Jewish leadership & those who rejected their Messiah would perish - AD 70...... Peter confirms that the rebellious nation would be destroyed - Acts 3:22-23."
I also said, "The people receiving the kingdom of God would be the Jews who repented & followed God's appointed leaders - the Apostles, leading the holy nation, aka the church which would then comprise both believing Jews & Gentiles. (1 Peter 2)"
Read on in Acts 4 -
11 Jesus is
‘“the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.”
12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.’
‘“the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.”
12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.’
Peter is quoting the same prophecy Jesus quoted, when they took offence -
Mat. 21:42 Jesus said to them, ‘Have you never read in the Scriptures:
‘“The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone;
the Lord has done this, and it is marvellous in our eyes”?
43 ‘Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44 Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.’
45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them.
‘“The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone;
the Lord has done this, and it is marvellous in our eyes”?
43 ‘Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44 Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.’
45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them.
Jesus also prophesied when the time would come - in the lifetime of this generation.
You wrote, "Oh, my, there are so many. How about Is. 9:7, where the Messiah will sit on the throne of David? "
Gabriel refers to Isaiah 9:7 in Luke 1 -
Isa. 9:7 He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness
from that time on and for ever.
Luke 1:31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants for ever; his kingdom will never end.’
NH&NE = New Heaven & New Earth.
I've used it countless times in posts on this board Usually in a context where its meaning is clear - e.g. -
I wrote, "The present spiritual kingdom is a time of God's patience, as he calls out his elect from Israel & the nations. At his coming at the end of time we will see the ultimate fulfilment of prophecy - the NH&NE."
Obviously, the nation of Israel was disbanded. However, the Jewish people were not destroyed.
The "church" (however one defines it) is metaphorically a "holy nation," not literally. You are abandoning the literal interpretation of OT prophecies, and substituting a view based on a metaphor in the NT, that of the "holy nation." In no way, shape or form can any view of Christianity make it into an actual nation, unless you mean Roman Catholicism (and I'm pretty sure you don't).
It is a characteristic of those who interpret metaphorically that they do not understand actual metaphors, but make literal prophecies into prophecies with metaphorical fulfillment.
Well, yes, Jesus is the stone rejected by the builders. What is your point? It is not coming through to me.
What will come?
So? An angel said that Jesus would reign on the throne of David, and He will. But the angel did not say when that would take place. One must compare Scripture with Scripture to learn that.
And once again, so many prophecies about Israel in Daniel were fulfilled literally about the actual nation. Who gave you the right to interpret the yet unfulfilled prophecies of Daniel as referring to anything or anyone besides the literal Israel?
Okay. Relevance?
And, of course, the Gospel is wide open to welcome Jewish people. We don't know how many became Christians in the last 1,900 years.
It's not a question of understanding metaphors, but understanding & interpreting Scripture. Peter writes to "To God’s elect, exiles, scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia," & tells them -
9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
He is assuring them that the covenant promise to Israel in Exo. 19 is being fulfilled in them, as a congregation of the redeemed people of God.
All those metaphors which many of us refer to as "spiritual fulfilment of prophecy." But they are not just metaphors, they are real statements of our status as believers in Christ.
Peter declared that Jesus was raised up to sit on David's throne. The LORD was King long before Saul or David. David sat on the LORD's throne.
I haven't discussed Daniel in this thread.
I wrote "'The present spiritual kingdom is a time of God's patience, as he calls out his elect from Israel & the nations. At his coming at the end of time we will see the ultimate fulfilment of prophecy - the NH&NE.'"
The sweep of the fulfilment of OC prophecy begins with the incarnation of the LORD Jesus, has a climax at Calvary, & is applied from Pentecost onwards.
Jesus has the full status as the triumphant Saviour, King of kings & Lord of lords, reigning from his heaven throne as all power is given unto me in heaven & in earth.
Yet -
In the present millennium, he is calling his elect out of the corrupt & lost mankind, He is patient, as he calls for repentance & allows sinners a lifetime to repent. That includes allowing sinners to persecute believers, as they did himself. We are in a warfare situation on the victorious side.
At the end of the millennium that warfare will intensify & Jesus will return from heaven to complete his victory by raising the dead believers, transforming the living believers, and destroying Satan & his minions by fire, all on the day of the LORD.
The judgment will welcome believers into the glory of the NH&NE, while condemning the ungodly to hell, aka the second death, aka the lake of fire.
It's been referred to as a "now & not yet" status, as Jesus has FINISHED all his saving work, but is delaying the final & eternal victory during the present age while he is saving his redeemed people in real time. The final eternal status is the NH&NE.
Really??? You think you can understand Scripture without understanding the metaphors? The Bible is packed full of metaphors, and the earnest student of Scripture had better understand them and be able to differentiate between a metaphor and a factual statement. For example, "a royal priesthood" is not a metaphor, but "holy nation" is. To miss this is to miss both the Baptist doctrine of the priesthood of the believer and to misunderstand the meaning of "holy nation."
This statement makes me think you don't actually understand what a metaphor is: "metaphor: A figure of speech in which one word is employed for another--a method of description which likens one thin g to another by referring to it as if it were the other one." (Mario Pei & Frank Gaynor, Dictionary of Linguistics, 135)
Your crowd totally misses it by referring to such expressions as "spiritual," as if the rest of the Bible were not spiritual.
The message of Peter was based on the resurrection of Christ. To miss that is to miss the whole Gospel. All through the book of Acts, the resurrection is preached as a vital part of the Gospel, something preachers and missionaries often miss.
The resurrection made Christ King of Kings on the throne of the Kingdom of God, and guaranteed the future reign of Christ on the throne of David. Those are two different thrones in Scripture.
But I have, and it's my thread.
I don't disagree, obviously.
Does the phrase "this present millennium" mean that you are postmil?
Paul called national israel still Israel, and he did not confuse them with the Church now!
Again, very interesting to me is that BOTH die in te wool Dispy and those who are RB holding to CT like myself still do not mismatchg prophecy in such a way that Israel now laways means the church !Really??? You think you can understand Scripture without understanding the metaphors? The Bible is packed full of metaphors, and the earnest student of Scripture had better understand them and be able to differentiate between a metaphor and a factual statement. For example, "a royal priesthood" is not a metaphor, but "holy nation" is. To miss this is to miss both the Baptist doctrine of the priesthood of the believer and to misunderstand the meaning of "holy nation."
This statement makes me think you don't actually understand what a metaphor is: "metaphor: A figure of speech in which one word is employed for another--a method of description which likens one thin g to another by referring to it as if it were the other one." (Mario Pei & Frank Gaynor, Dictionary of Linguistics, 135)
Your crowd totally misses it by referring to such expressions as "spiritual," as if the rest of the Bible were not spiritual.
The message of Peter was based on the resurrection of Christ. To miss that is to miss the whole Gospel. All through the book of Acts, the resurrection is preached as a vital part of the Gospel, something preachers and missionaries often miss.
The resurrection made Christ King of Kings on the throne of the Kingdom of God, and guaranteed the future reign of Christ on the throne of David. Those are two different thrones in Scripture.
But I have, and it's my thread.
I don't disagree, obviously.
Does the phrase "this present millennium" mean that you are postmil?
I've put all these quotes together to save cluttering the thread.
I'm surprised that John referred to your post about the man of sin in 2 Thessalonians 2 as if it was a quote from Daniel.
I think most of us see that many of Daniel's prophecies refer to the intertestamental period. The interpretation is often given in the text.
The 70 weeks prophecy was fulfilled by the life & ministry of the LORD Jesus, with the 70th week running from his baptism & anointing to 7 years later, after Stephen denounced the rebellious Jews as "uncircumcised" & the Gospel was opened to the Gentiles without circumcision.
Not confusion, straight forward teaching by Jesus & the Apostles.
I follow your reasoning, Jon, but I don't agree. My understanding is that Paul is saying that before the final events of 2 Thes 1 occur with Jesus' return for resurrection & judgment & vindication of the suffering elect, the temple must be destroyed according to Jesus' Olivet prophecy. The man of sin would be a corrupt high priest. We only have prophecy, not an inspired record of the destruction, so we can't name names.
Where did Paul call "national Israel" "still Israel?"
When he refers to national Israel, he writes of Israel after the flesh.
When referring to believing Israel, including Gentiles, he writes of the Israel of God.
14 times he refers to the Jews (both believers & unbelievers) as "the circumcision" but also claims the title for Gentile believers. (Phil. 3:3)
By "die in te wool" are you thinking of 2 Kings 8:15 ?
We don't mismatch prophecy in such a way that Israel always means national, ethnic Israel aka Israel after the flesh. It often means those of Israel who believe, together with believing Gentiles, aka the church.
I'm surprised that John referred to your post about the man of sin in 2 Thessalonians 2 as if it was a quote from Daniel.
I think most of us see that many of Daniel's prophecies refer to the intertestamental period. The interpretation is often given in the text.
The 70 weeks prophecy was fulfilled by the life & ministry of the LORD Jesus, with the 70th week running from his baptism & anointing to 7 years later, after Stephen denounced the rebellious Jews as "uncircumcised" & the Gospel was opened to the Gentiles without circumcision.
Not confusion, straight forward teaching by Jesus & the Apostles.
Thank you Jon.
I follow your reasoning, Jon, but I don't agree. My understanding is that Paul is saying that before the final events of 2 Thes 1 occur with Jesus' return for resurrection & judgment & vindication of the suffering elect, the temple must be destroyed according to Jesus' Olivet prophecy. The man of sin would be a corrupt high priest. We only have prophecy, not an inspired record of the destruction, so we can't name names.
Where did Paul call "national Israel" "still Israel?"
When he refers to national Israel, he writes of Israel after the flesh.
When referring to believing Israel, including Gentiles, he writes of the Israel of God.
14 times he refers to the Jews (both believers & unbelievers) as "the circumcision" but also claims the title for Gentile believers. (Phil. 3:3)
Gal. 6:15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation. 16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule – to the Israel of God.
By "die in te wool" are you thinking of 2 Kings 8:15 ?
We don't mismatch prophecy in such a way that Israel always means national, ethnic Israel aka Israel after the flesh. It often means those of Israel who believe, together with believing Gentiles, aka the church.
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