Y1, have you ever considered replying to a post, instead of tweeting your unconsidered opinion?
How do you understand the context of Isaiah 7 ?
You say "many prophecies." Please list just 3 that support what you are saying.
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"Interpretation" in 2 Peter 1:20-21
- Thread starter John of Japan
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Y1, have you ever considered replying to a post, instead of tweeting your unconsidered opinion?
How do you understand the context of Isaiah 7 ?
You say "many prophecies." Please list just 3 that support what you are saying.
I blocked Yeshua for this very reason. His posts follow the formula of one or two sentences stating his opinion followed by a exclamation point.
I only reply occasionally to him to make my own points.
John D. Wright
Member
The key here is that the revelation came from the Holy Spirit and was not made up by mere men. The words you quote above can be used that way. We as Christians must have the Holy Spirit or we cannot interpret the bible.
I'm not sure what conclusion you are drawing yourself but adding that to the discussion might help.
My first post in this thread...
I believe "interpretation" in this case means discerning the MESSAGE of a given Scripture, with the given that the LANGUAGE of that Scripture is that of the reader.
this is in the same vein as the handwriting on the wall that Belshazzar saw. The LANGUAGE(Aramaic) was familiar to him & the others who saw it-
MENE-numbered
MENE
TEKEL-weighed
UPHARSIN-divided, broken in two
-But its MESSAGE eluded him, but he knew it was a supernatural event with special meaning. Daniel was summoned & told him its message. Thus, God "interpreted" its MESSAGE for daniel.
I believe "interpretation" in this case means discerning the MESSAGE of a given Scripture, with the given that the LANGUAGE of that Scripture is that of the reader.
this is in the same vein as the handwriting on the wall that Belshazzar saw. The LANGUAGE(Aramaic) was familiar to him & the others who saw it-
MENE-numbered
MENE
TEKEL-weighed
UPHARSIN-divided, broken in two
-But its MESSAGE eluded him, but he knew it was a supernatural event with special meaning. Daniel was summoned & told him its message. Thus, God "interpreted" its MESSAGE for daniel.
Yeshua1 said: ↑
There are MANY prophecies that have yet to be fulfilled, to be at time of second coming itself and forward!
WOW!!! I ask for three & you offer FIVE !!! Thanks, I'll reply in red -
Y1 - Man of Sin yet to come
In 2 Thes. 1, Paul has been describing what is clearly the final coming of the Lord for vindication of the saints & judgment of the wicked.
However -
The temple was still standing & Jesus' Olivet prophecy had not yet been fulfilled. Jesus had to come veiled in clouds to "supervise" the AD 70 destruction of this generation..
We do not have an inspired record of the destruction, but we do have inspired prophecy.
Note also that John sees a vision of the temple before destruction, proving the Revelation was written before AD 70.
Y1 - 2 Preaching of the message of the Kingdom to whole earth not yet fulfilled
Y1 - 3 Great Tribulation yet to happen
Y1 - 4 No physical resurrection of all dead and alive in Christ yet
The first, spiritual resurrection, aka conversion, taught by Jesus in John 5, Paul in Eph. 2, & John in Rev. 20 is constantly taking place.
The general, bodily resurrection of all the dead will take place when Jesus returns for resurrection & judgment. 2 Thes. 1.
Y1 - 5 End times of israel facing Armeggadon yet to happen
The "end times of Israel" happened in AD 70. The country in the Middle East calling itself "Israel" is certainly NOT the Israel of God.
There are MANY prophecies that have yet to be fulfilled, to be at time of second coming itself and forward!
WOW!!! I ask for three & you offer FIVE !!! Thanks, I'll reply in red -
Y1 - Man of Sin yet to come
2 Thes. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
In 2 Thes. 1, Paul has been describing what is clearly the final coming of the Lord for vindication of the saints & judgment of the wicked.
However -
The temple was still standing & Jesus' Olivet prophecy had not yet been fulfilled. Jesus had to come veiled in clouds to "supervise" the AD 70 destruction of this generation..
We do not have an inspired record of the destruction, but we do have inspired prophecy.
Note also that John sees a vision of the temple before destruction, proving the Revelation was written before AD 70.
Y1 - 2 Preaching of the message of the Kingdom to whole earth not yet fulfilled
Mat. 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26 but now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26 but now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Y1 - 3 Great Tribulation yet to happen
Mat. 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 then let them which be in Judæa flee into the mountains: 17 let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judæa flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
16 then let them which be in Judæa flee into the mountains: 17 let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judæa flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Y1 - 4 No physical resurrection of all dead and alive in Christ yet
The first, spiritual resurrection, aka conversion, taught by Jesus in John 5, Paul in Eph. 2, & John in Rev. 20 is constantly taking place.
The general, bodily resurrection of all the dead will take place when Jesus returns for resurrection & judgment. 2 Thes. 1.
Y1 - 5 End times of israel facing Armeggadon yet to happen
The "end times of Israel" happened in AD 70. The country in the Middle East calling itself "Israel" is certainly NOT the Israel of God.
Rev. 17:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon..... 19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Mat. 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire
Mat. 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Y1 - Just a few!Mat. 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire
Mat. 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Welcome to the BB!
After unpacking the passage here on this thread, my view is still that the "interpretation" is that done by the reader of Scripture. However, I can now see more than before the possibility that the "interpretation" can be interpreted as that of the prophet himself, giving his own ideas or his own prophecy rather than that which the Lord wanted him to give.
I think that both were in play, as the true prophets of God spoke/wrote exactly as God intended, and then we are to interpret all prophecies by the more sure word of god, the whole cannon of scriptures!
John of Japan said:
Welcome to the discussion John.
Agedman's posts show the problems of interpreting "interpretation." You may be interested in my previous posts #51, 58 & 59
Your point is clear, but, all Christians have the Holy Spirit, so why don't we all agree? I consider that the primary point Peter is making is that OC prophecy refers to Christ, & we should look to his incarnation, life & saving ministry for the fulfilment of prophecy. Peter says that their experience on the transfiguration mount confirmed that Jesus was indeed the fulfilment of prophecy. The truths declared by the Apostles were not to be challenged by private individuals (idiots) who have no Apostolic authority.
I consider John has got it wrong, & the passage is not giving guidance for the reader to interpret Scripture (private interpretation) but forbidding any interpretation at variance with Apostolic interpretation.
Peter proceeds in chapter 2 to give many examples of private interpretation including those claiming to be Christian teachers.
In chapter 3 he warns scoffers who challenge Jesus' coming according to his Olivet prophecy, including judgment on the generation (this generation) that rejected him.
John D. Wright
Member
Thank you! I am enjoying the interesting conversation.
John D. Wright
Member
Thank you!
We only have the bible now and what the apostles wrote. So I believe we can interpret what they wrote through the Holy Spirit. I would also agree that the bible will not contradict itself so of course nothing I interpret from the OT can possible disagree with any apostle in the NT.
So you are saying that your view is that the word "inspiration" is the better word here as opposed to "interpretation"? I think we can all agree that anyone who ever prophesied was inspired by God if a true prophet.
2 Timothy 2:15
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
So I don't believe it can be an admonition not to study the bible or interpret it.
Edit:
I would add that no one is given unique illumination that no one else can possibly have. That would be a private interpretation to me. If I read a sentence and interpret it that isn't a private interpretation if the guy next to me can read it and interpret it as well. The scriptures are not hidden from Christians.
No one can claim the Spirit showed them somehting that has been denied by the Historical Church, or not supported in the sdcriptures at all!
John D. Wright
Member
I would agree that the Spirit will not reveal something that the scriptures do not support. That would be God disagreeing with Himself so that won't happen. I might quibble with "Historical Church" unless you just mean the bible as handed down by the Apostles.
My replies in red.
2 Peter 1:15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance. 16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
JDW - 1. We only have the bible now and what the apostles wrote. So I believe we can interpret what they wrote through the Holy Spirit. I would also agree that the bible will not contradict itself so of course nothing I interpret from the OT can possible disagree with any apostle in the NT.
"Interpret" is of course the big question in this thread & I believe the guidance Peter gives limits our freedom to interpret. In particular, we should not interpret the OC Scriptures in a sense Jesus & his Apostles have not shown.
Apart from the reference in Romans 11 which itself needs interpreting in terms of the whole letter, there is no Apostolic authority for focusing OC prophecy on the nation of Israel & its future still to come. Rather, Jesus & the Apostles focus on a fulfilment of OC prophecy by Jesus himself & the Gospel. The church, comprising many thousands of redeemed, repentant Jews from all round the Mediterranean & beyond, together with saved Gentiles, became the promised & prophesied "holy nation" as Peter explains in 1 Peter 2.
Apart from the reference in Romans 11 which itself needs interpreting in terms of the whole letter, there is no Apostolic authority for focusing OC prophecy on the nation of Israel & its future still to come. Rather, Jesus & the Apostles focus on a fulfilment of OC prophecy by Jesus himself & the Gospel. The church, comprising many thousands of redeemed, repentant Jews from all round the Mediterranean & beyond, together with saved Gentiles, became the promised & prophesied "holy nation" as Peter explains in 1 Peter 2.
JDW - 2. So you are saying that your view is that the word "inspiration" is the better word here as opposed to "interpretation"? I think we can all agree that anyone who ever prophesied was inspired by God if a true prophet.
2 Timothy 2:15
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
So I don't believe it can be an admonition not to study the bible or interpret it.
"Inspiration" is certainly not a better word than "interpretation" in the context. Scripture is inspired; we are not. We interpret the Scripture by reading & comparing Scriptures. Revelation 2 & 3 give sound advice as to how to understand Scripture & to apply it to ourselves & our churches.
Peter continues in chapter 2 to discuss false teachers who misuse Scripture.
Jude 3-4 underlines this teaching & his first example condemns what is still a common error, namely "We are saved by grace, not by works, so we are free to sin":
Throughout the letters there are many warnings against a Jewish focus & application. e.g. Galatians.
Peter continues in chapter 2 to discuss false teachers who misuse Scripture.
Jude 3-4 underlines this teaching & his first example condemns what is still a common error, namely "We are saved by grace, not by works, so we are free to sin":
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Throughout the letters there are many warnings against a Jewish focus & application. e.g. Galatians.
Edit:
3. I would add that no one is given unique illumination that no one else can possibly have. That would be a private interpretation to me. If I read a sentence and interpret it that isn't a private interpretation if the guy next to me can read it and interpret it as well. The scriptures are not hidden from Christians.
Can you give an example of private & valid interpretation?
One of my sons met a girl, daughter of an elder of a charismatic church, at a Christian gathering. Someone had prophesied she would marry before she was 20, also that she would marry her next boyfriend. At the wedding, within a month of their meeting, her father thanked God for the miracle of the marriage.
The marriage didn't last a year before she went off with one of his friends. Private, "idiotic" prophecy is a serious violation of sound teaching & practice. And no, though we & our Pastor advised against such a quick marriage, we gave full support.
Scripture is complete, we are not prophets, not Apostles, not inspired. Our interpretation of Old Covenant Scripture must be guided by the New Covenant Scriptures. We should not read the OC Scripture looking for "unfulfilled prophecy" regarding a yet future fulfilment for the nation of Israel.
The prophecies relating to Jesus & his redeemed people were & are being fulfilled in his true church. We have personal experience, not as eye-witnesses like Peter, but as faith-witnesses.
Prophecies relating to Israel, a future temple, the millennium, etc, are lacking any New Covenant Scripture grounds for substantiation. They rely on reading the OC with a focus on national Israel rather than Christ & his church, and on a biased reading of Revelation.
One of my sons met a girl, daughter of an elder of a charismatic church, at a Christian gathering. Someone had prophesied she would marry before she was 20, also that she would marry her next boyfriend. At the wedding, within a month of their meeting, her father thanked God for the miracle of the marriage.
The marriage didn't last a year before she went off with one of his friends. Private, "idiotic" prophecy is a serious violation of sound teaching & practice. And no, though we & our Pastor advised against such a quick marriage, we gave full support.
Scripture is complete, we are not prophets, not Apostles, not inspired. Our interpretation of Old Covenant Scripture must be guided by the New Covenant Scriptures. We should not read the OC Scripture looking for "unfulfilled prophecy" regarding a yet future fulfilment for the nation of Israel.
The prophecies relating to Jesus & his redeemed people were & are being fulfilled in his true church. We have personal experience, not as eye-witnesses like Peter, but as faith-witnesses.
Prophecies relating to Israel, a future temple, the millennium, etc, are lacking any New Covenant Scripture grounds for substantiation. They rely on reading the OC with a focus on national Israel rather than Christ & his church, and on a biased reading of Revelation.
I do see it as the faith that was once and full all delivered to the daints, but also do see it as being what the Church at large agreed upon as being true doctrines of the faith, such as expressed in the Creeds /Confessions.
There are clearly true prophets of the Lord and false prophets in the Biblical record. I see no records in prophetic history of a genuine prophet of the Lord either giving a false prophecy or falsely interpreting his inspired prophecy. Even Balaam could not go beyond what God wanted prophesied, or interpret the prophecy differently than its truth. God would not let him!
This is actually a good point for my interpretation of "interpretation," that the "private interpretation" is that done by the reader of Peter, not by the prophets.
Forgive me, but I fail to see the relevance of these passages to the OP.
Again, how does this relate to 2 Peter 1:20-21?
I'm sorry, I'm still not seeing the relevance.
There is also the aspect that at times even the OT prophets were in the dark regarding understnading in full what God had given unto them, so they were not involved in guessing what was right or not, as they just give the word of theLord forth when the Lord came upon them to do that!
I would suggest regarding Balaam that while he was not allowed to curse Israel publicly, but only blessed, that he did do a private interpretation/application by teaching the Moabites & Midianites to share with the Israelites rather than attacking them. The result was that the shared sacrifices, & fornication, caused God's displeasure against Israel.
Numbers 31:15 ‘Have you allowed all the women to live?’ he asked them. 16 ‘They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people.
As the saying goes - "If you can't beat them, join them."
Looking for possible examples of private interpretation - the temple was the subject of a covenant prophecy - Exo. 25:8 ‘Then let them make a sanctuary for me, and I will dwell among them. The presence of the tabernacle/temple gave them assurance that God was with them, but they did a "private interpretation" to the effect that they were safe, because they were assured of God's presence.
They'd made a similar private interpretation earlier when they took the tabernacle into battle - & it was captured.
And it seems Baruch privately interpreted the general word of the LORD to protect & bless his faithful people that he would receive great things for himself.
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I suggest the problem is that we think along different lines - not on each other's wavelength.
Every time the OT prophet spoke pr wroye down scripture, was it not all inspired from God if in the Bible account?
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