Intinction

[AustinC]

"let us evaluate the whole text, then i will tell you what i think it means, as opposed to what the Church and all Christians have believed since Christ's ascension."

"symbolic" Communion is a novelty that first appeared in the 1600's and really isn't any type of communion at all. The Pastor elevated himself in place of the Risen Lord in the Eucharist.

Wrong. Jesus performed the Sadir meal at the last supper, which is entirely symbolic. The disciples knew this and understood how Jesus altered the meal so that they could recognize Jesus as the lamb that was slain. They knew that Jesus was never talking about bread becoming human flesh, nor wine becoming human blood. In fact, they never said it was literal. Making it literal is a fabrication from church leaders that comes centuries later. But, since you have lifted up tradition above scripture, that reality doesn't bother you. Yet, when you read Jesus words...it should bother you.

Matthew 15:1-9 Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.” He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ But you say, ‘If anyone tells his father or his mother, “What you would have gained from me is given to God,” he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God. You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”

 

[Adonia]

Have you considered the thief on the cross?

Oh of course, we have been through this before. The thief is being told by the Master IN PERSON that he will see paradise. End of story - nothing else is needed.

 

[Adonia]

The Eucharist is therefore our participation in the saving self-offering of Christ.

As is the entire Mass. Time is transcended and we are there at the foot of the Cross. He wants us there which is why the Holy Eucharist. You don't believe this? That's fine and I respect your decision. But that is our teaching, our belief, and one that has been in effect since the early centuries. Our Eastern Orthodox brothers are in sync with us concerning this issue. We have not strayed, your faith tradition has.

 

[Adonia]

Wrong. Jesus performed the Sadir meal at the last supper, which is entirely symbolic. The disciples knew this and understood how Jesus altered the meal so that they could recognize Jesus as the lamb that was slain. They knew that Jesus was never talking about bread becoming human flesh, nor wine becoming human blood. In fact, they never said it was literal. Making it literal is a fabrication from church leaders that comes centuries later. But, since you have lifted up tradition above scripture, that reality doesn't bother you. Yet, when you read Jesus words...it should bother you.

Only in your interpretation brother. The whole of the Christian world believed the orthodox interpretation of the issue for hundreds upon hundreds of years before your "enlightened" leaders even saw the light of day.

 

[AustinC]

Only in your interpretation brother. The whole of the Christian world believed the orthodox interpretation of the issue for hundreds upon hundreds of years before your "enlightened" leaders even saw the light of day.

Matthew 15:1-9 Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.” He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ But you say, ‘If anyone tells his father or his mother, “What you would have gained from me is given to God,” he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God. You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Heck, we didn't even need Jesus to die for our sins. Just perform the ritual and eat the wine dunked wafer and you're saved. A little hocus pocus and alacazam for good measure and everyone's sins are absolved...

Wrong... absolution is another process in the Catholic Sacramental system. I’m going out on a limb here and suggest that you have never been a Catholic Austin so you can’t process the “way of salvation” that a Catholic uses. Perhaps study it for clarity prior to criticism.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Only in your interpretation brother. The whole of the Christian world believed the orthodox interpretation of the issue for hundreds upon hundreds of years before your "enlightened" leaders even saw the light of day.

What enlightened leaders are you referring to? FYI, mine happens to be Christ.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Matthew 15:1-9 Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.” He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ But you say, ‘If anyone tells his father or his mother, “What you would have gained from me is given to God,” he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God. You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”

Telling us that hypocrisy is a time honored tradition used by religious people.

 

[Adonia]

What enlightened leaders are you referring to? FYI, mine happens to be Christ.

Take your pick, you have loads of them. Wesley, Zwingli, Smythe to name a few. You take your interpretational cues from them. These interpreted the Holy Scriptures IN THEIR WAY - and you follow them.

 

[Adonia]

they signifies nothing before the eyes the Lord Jesus Christ,

Nothing? The Holy Mass brings present his great sacrifice and you say it is nothing before the Lord? Your ignorance is far worse than I could ever have imagined anyone's to be.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Take your pick, you have loads of them. Wesley, Zwingli, Smythe to name a few. You take your interpretational cues from them. These interpreted the Holy Scriptures IN THEIR WAY - and you follow them.

No I do not.

 

[AustinC]

Wrong... absolution is another process in the Catholic Sacramental system. I’m going out on a limb here and suggest that you have never been a Catholic Austin so you can’t process the “way of salvation” that a Catholic uses. Perhaps study it for clarity prior to criticism.

Why? What possible value would a fabricated tradition add to what scripture teaches? It would be like adding a fairy tale to the Gospel of John. Why would anyone do that and think the fairy tale is as valid as the Gospel?

 

[AustinC]

Telling us that hypocrisy is a time honored tradition used by religious people.

Indeed, traditions not tied to biblical truth should be completely abandoned. Thus the tradition that partaking in communion actually recreates and actualizes the crucifixion of Christ so that a person continually resaves themselves via participation should be abandoned as an anathema and lie from hell. It is no different in its legalism than the Judaisers addressed in the letter to the Galatians. Grace is entirely absent, while works become the means of salvation. Throw out the traditions that hinder the Gospel of salvation by grace through faith.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Heck, we didn't even need Jesus to die for our sins. Just perform the ritual and eat the wine dunked wafer and you're saved. A little hocus pocus and alacazam for good measure and everyone's sins are absolved...

Wrong... absolution is another process in the Catholic Sacramental system. I’m going out on a limb here and suggest that you have never been a Catholic Austin so you can’t process the “way of salvation” that a Catholic uses. Perhaps study it for clarity prior to criticism.

EWF, AC said: "...perform the ritual and eat the wine dunked wafer and you're saved.", is that true? Does the RCC in any way relate the Eucharist to a lost soul being saved?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Why? What possible value would a fabricated tradition add to what scripture teaches? It would be like adding a fairy tale to the Gospel of John. Why would anyone do that and think the fairy tale is as valid as the Gospel?

Did I say it was valid but at least you could speak intelligently to Catholics.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

EWF, AC said: "...perform the ritual and eat the wine dunked wafer and you're saved.", is that true? Does the RCC in any way relate the Eucharist to a lost soul being saved?

If you consider that the RCC uses the 7 sacraments as the path, yes.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

If you consider that the RCC uses the 7 sacraments as the path, yes.

With due respect, it matters not what "I" consider. What does the Roman Catholic Church doctrine require for salvation of a lost sinner? If the lost sinner partakes of the Eucharist, does that act redeem them or does the RCC have additional or different requirements for the lost sinner to be born-again?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

With due respect, it matters not what "I" consider. What does the Roman Catholic Church doctrine require for salvation of a lost sinner? If the lost sinner partakes of the Eucharist, does that act redeem them or does the RCC have additional or different requirements for the lost sinner to be born-again?

Yes... the full seven sacraments.... Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Eucharist, Penance,
Anointing of the Sick,
, Marriage & Holy Orders—- last one was for the Priest and Nun (in my day)

 

[AustinC]

With due respect, it matters not what "I" consider. What does the Roman Catholic Church doctrine require for salvation of a lost sinner? If the lost sinner partakes of the Eucharist, does that act redeem them or does the RCC have additional or different requirements for the lost sinner to be born-again?

With due respect, it matters not what the Roman Catholic Church doctrine considers. It matters what God requires for salvation of a lost sinner.

Ephesians 2:4-9 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[RCommando]

EWF, AC said: "...perform the ritual and eat the wine dunked wafer and you're saved.", is that true? Does the RCC in any way relate the Eucharist to a lost soul being saved?

Wesley, I think most Christians would say they believe salvation is through grace, correct? The Church teaches that these graces are conveyed or imparted to us through the sacraments... Baptism, Communion, Reconciliation, etc all pour out graces needed for salvation.