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Introducing Christian Doctrine by Millard Erickson
- Thread starter tinytim
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No, it was not a command. It was authorization.tinytim said:
That spirit could not do this UNTIL God allowed it.
I think Anthropomorphic view is tossed around a little to freely, though it is in there. I think it is used a little to often to explain away somethings that do not fit in our view of God. Again, not that scripture does doesn't use anthropomorphic desciptors - I just want to clarify that.
But remember, even Calvinists believe in the creatures freedom to will but it is constrained to creatures nature.tinytim said:
I personally don't like the term free-will because it conjures up the impression of being free to do what I want and God can't stop me. (peleganism)
I use the term "Responsiblity of Man" to refer to mans will. We can do whatever whatever God sets before us. Thus as God reveals His truth, man is responsible to accept or reject it. That is me personally though.
Allan said:
The reason I threw that out was when reading that section, it was a sorta simplistic view of God...
Like he was in a convened council.. like a commander around a round table.
I don't think that is what God is like, but the original readers would have been comfortable with this type of vision.
menageriekeeper
Active Member
Well first off, we are talking about Ahab. It was about time God took care of him. (first thought, how longsuffering God is in allowing us to reject Him, while still offering us forgiveness if we only would repent)
Ahab had been going on in his sins for quite sometime. God had had enough (turned him over to a "reprobate mind"?). It was time for Ahab to face the consequences of his sin. Notice in the previous chapter Ahab knew very well who the true servant/prophet of God was and didn't want to consult him. That guy never has anything good to say about me! This makes me believe that Ahab knew deep down that attacking Ramoth Gilead was a bad idea. But all his 'prophets' were telling him what he wanted to hear.
Notice, Micaiah also tells Ahab what he wants to hear.
Ahab tells him to get real and spit out what God had to say, but even though Ahab knew
Micaiah was telling him the truth, he didn't want to listen and called out God's man by saying sarcastically: See, I told you he never has anything good to say. Thus Ahab rejected what turned out to be his last chance to accept God's ways. And he did so willfully.
Now we get to your scriptures. Ahab has made his decision, now it's up to God to decide what to do about it. Notice God's mind is already made up. "Who will go entice Ahab?" He knew what Ahab would say and yet He still had Micaiah deliever the last chance. I don't believe God is asking for advice. I believe He already has his plans made for Ahab. Yet He wants to give Ahab one very last chance (yes, Ahab just had a last chance, now he's getting another. Didn't your mother always give you "one more chance"). So He has Micaiah tell Ahab about the vision. Ahab not only rejects God, but tosses innocent Micaiah under the jail with nothing but bread and water.
God asking for volunteers is not the same as asking for their advice. He sometimes asks us what we would do and then says "good idea, go do it". This is how I see the posted verses. Now is allowing the 'spirit' to put a lying tongue into Ahab 'prophets' an example of God condoning sin, ordering sin or somehow sinning Himself? I can't see that it is.
Ahab 'prophets' were well practiced in telling him what he wanted to hear even if that meant lying to him. They were going to advise Ahab to do what he wanted. Ahab already wanted to attack. God also wanted Ahab to attack. Everyone is in agreement and on top of that the Most Holy God even made sure that Ahab knew exactly what would happen to him if he did attack! So is there really a lie if the truth is given? Not in my opinion.
Ahab had been going on in his sins for quite sometime. God had had enough (turned him over to a "reprobate mind"?). It was time for Ahab to face the consequences of his sin. Notice in the previous chapter Ahab knew very well who the true servant/prophet of God was and didn't want to consult him. That guy never has anything good to say about me! This makes me believe that Ahab knew deep down that attacking Ramoth Gilead was a bad idea. But all his 'prophets' were telling him what he wanted to hear.
Notice, Micaiah also tells Ahab what he wants to hear.
Ahab tells him to get real and spit out what God had to say, but even though Ahab knewMicaiah was telling him the truth, he didn't want to listen and called out God's man by saying sarcastically: See, I told you he never has anything good to say. Thus Ahab rejected what turned out to be his last chance to accept God's ways. And he did so willfully.
Now we get to your scriptures. Ahab has made his decision, now it's up to God to decide what to do about it. Notice God's mind is already made up. "Who will go entice Ahab?" He knew what Ahab would say and yet He still had Micaiah deliever the last chance. I don't believe God is asking for advice. I believe He already has his plans made for Ahab. Yet He wants to give Ahab one very last chance (yes, Ahab just had a last chance, now he's getting another. Didn't your mother always give you "one more chance"). So He has Micaiah tell Ahab about the vision. Ahab not only rejects God, but tosses innocent Micaiah under the jail with nothing but bread and water.
God asking for volunteers is not the same as asking for their advice. He sometimes asks us what we would do and then says "good idea, go do it". This is how I see the posted verses. Now is allowing the 'spirit' to put a lying tongue into Ahab 'prophets' an example of God condoning sin, ordering sin or somehow sinning Himself? I can't see that it is.
Ahab 'prophets' were well practiced in telling him what he wanted to hear even if that meant lying to him. They were going to advise Ahab to do what he wanted. Ahab already wanted to attack. God also wanted Ahab to attack. Everyone is in agreement and on top of that the Most Holy God even made sure that Ahab knew exactly what would happen to him if he did attack! So is there really a lie if the truth is given? Not in my opinion.
menageriekeeper
Active Member
Ya'll were busy while I was getting my thoughts together. I think this quote by Jarther sums up my view on God's ability to sin quite well:
This is possibly a little simplistic, though as it doesn't seem to that into account the effect of God's love on His own will.
Oooh Tim! Someone's going to call you to account for that statement. Not me though! :laugh:
This is possibly a little simplistic, though as it doesn't seem to that into account the effect of God's love on His own will.
Oooh Tim! Someone's going to call you to account for that statement. Not me though! :laugh:
Yes, but at the same time it was directly in line with Gods intended purpose and will for it TO be done.tinytim said:
What would have happened if the spirit would have given some other plan?
God would not have allowed it and we see this when God states the spirit's plan was in line with Gods will "(21) "'I will go and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.
" 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'
Thus God authorized the spirit's plan to lie to Ahab through false prophets.
The prophets themselves are already in sin and God is simply using their sin for His glory because they willingly recieve the prophetic utterance without a second thought. This is why God is the one who is said to have placed the lying spirit in the mouth of false prophets to speak (by authorization of God) to Ahab because God has decreed his downfall because of their sinfulness.
IOW - Notice what God is actaully is creditted for - placing a lying spirit in the mouths of the false prophets. Not the message given to them, nor their giving the lie to Ahab. God used their sin/sinfulness for His glory.
(22) "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."
Jarthur001
Active Member
Hello Tim
Now of course we could never do this, nor could God. I can see your point in that if we place to much into one attribute at the cost of all the others, we paint a God that is not real. All attributes must be preached. But it is clear that some limits others.
Case in point. God is love. Yet read the love chapter and see how God limits his own love based on His holiness.
God is does not lie. God is truth and truth only. Yet God can control man with his own sin nature, and use the sins of man to bring about his will. Who is guilty of sin God or man? Man is guilty. God does not force the sin, but God does know that the person will lie, and allows that person to come to the arena and sin. Much like Satan in the garden. God knew Satan was in the garden, and God knew Adam would sin. God did not force Adam to sin, nor did God stop Adam from sinning. God placed the tree in the garden and KNEW it would happen...He counted on it. Because God knew Adams choice before Adam even knew he had a choice.
Not at all. Yes you will hear this brought up as a problem for the Calvinist view. I think the reason is that non-calvinist view Gods foreknowing as the driving point. However, a Calvinist will view Gods decree as the driving point. If time is in place or not God's decree will take place. It just so happens that God also has told us when these decrees has happen. And God has used words that speak of a element of time, which we understand. Being that most of the decrees happen before creation and time, only tells us it was before the earth was made. This in it self is time. Time is a measurement of change. Once there was no earth, now there is a earth. This means time has past. So to go before time, is in fact a measurement in time. We cannot measure it any way past that point, for there is no time to measure it with.
Yes...I have heard this before. I disagree with it. Somethings God cannot be without, or He is no longer God. I can have a God with mercy, but if God cannot rule over all things, how could He ever show mercy. Yet if we remove Gods mercy, and God has intact all other attributes that make Him God, He is still God ...just without mercy.
Now of course we could never do this, nor could God. I can see your point in that if we place to much into one attribute at the cost of all the others, we paint a God that is not real. All attributes must be preached. But it is clear that some limits others.
Case in point. God is love. Yet read the love chapter and see how God limits his own love based on His holiness.
God is does not lie. God is truth and truth only. Yet God can control man with his own sin nature, and use the sins of man to bring about his will. Who is guilty of sin God or man? Man is guilty. God does not force the sin, but God does know that the person will lie, and allows that person to come to the arena and sin. Much like Satan in the garden. God knew Satan was in the garden, and God knew Adam would sin. God did not force Adam to sin, nor did God stop Adam from sinning. God placed the tree in the garden and KNEW it would happen...He counted on it. Because God knew Adams choice before Adam even knew he had a choice.
OK, moving on... I think we all agree that God cannot sin... He cannot lie... He cannot be held accountable for sin... (Who would hold him accountable anyway?)
Here is another question?
Should the Holy Spirit be worshipped?
I will be going to bed in a little while, so I will check back in tomorrow.
Here is another question?
Should the Holy Spirit be worshipped?
I will be going to bed in a little while, so I will check back in tomorrow.
Jarthur001
Active Member
tinytim said:
I'm going to bed also. I'll give you my short answer. NO.
However....
I disagree with those that say Holy Spirit should not be prayed to. I have full Bible support that shows we can pray to the Holy Spirit.
I'll let others fight over this tonight...
I'm off to bed.
In Christ...James
I would have to disagree with you here James.Jarthur001 said:
There is not one attribute that God can do without and would allow for Him to maintain being God. God can no more remove His Love and still be God anymore than He could remove His soveriegnty and maintain He is God.
This is from Ryrie's "Basic Theology"
God is who He is because of ALL that He is. All His attributes are absolute (God is.. ) and therefore they are all equal.
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tinytim said:
1. From the scriptural data, we never find the Holy Spirit being worshiped, but here's something to ponder: The Spirit is God and God is worshiped.
2. Here's what I believe: in the scheme of redemption, worship is due the Father, but often we find the Son being worshiped in the Gospel narratives.
3. But when the Father is worship, God is worshiped; therefore the Trinity receives worship.
4. However, here's what I see in Scripture: we who are believers come to the Father through the Son with the Spirit dwelling in us.
I've been gone all day doing evangelism, preparation for Sunday and translation work. Bro. tinytim has asked me to join in here, since I like Erickson's work. I don't have the book mentioned, but others of his work, so I'll join in as I'm able. I read the whole thread, and see this as a place I can contribute.tinytim said:
It is a large (but common) mistake in theology to separate any of the Persons of the trinity. The only time in time, eternity and history that there was or is or will be a barrier of any kind between any of the Persons of the trinity was at the cross when Christ bore our sins and God the Father would not look on that sin, so the Christ prayed "My God, my God," the only time He used this address in stead of "Father."
Therefore, yes absolutely, the Holy Spirit can be worshipped, because He is God. And He can be prayed to (and prayer is a form of worship, by the way). :type:
4His_glory
New Member
John of Japan said:
Hi John I trust the Lord is graciously blessing your ministry there. I see your reasoning in saying the Holy Spirit can be worshiped, yet I have a hard time reconciling this with the fact that in the Scriptures we never see Him worshiped (to my knowledge). Also it seems to go against His role. We always see Him directing attention to the Son, which seems to be His primary role.
We need to be very careful not to adopt the practice of certain charismatic groups that put an over-emphasis on the H.S. and especially careful to avoid the danger of reducing the God-head down to a oneness theology (also the practice of some charismatic groups I believe) which I think is a danger in worshiping the Holy Spirit.
Maybe I am being overly cautious, but it seems to me that the only persons of the Trinity to receive worship in the Scripture is the primarily the Father and then the Son as God glorifies Him.
I think it is clear in the Bible that the three persons of the Trinity are three distinct persons. The Father is not the Son or the H.S; and the H.S. is not the Son or the Father; and the Son is not the Father or the H.S. but all are God. The significance of this I believe is that each person of the God-head has a unique role and the role of the H.S. is to point people specifically to the Son.
I will bow out now because I have never read Erickson´s work but this topic interests me.
Jarthur001
Active Member
John of Japan said:
Hello John,
I was very short in my answer, when I said "NO" worship allowed. It will be very hard to put into words all that needs to be said in 2 or 3 post. The Trinity is very hard to even talk about even in a few words and have full understanding. A old and yet good work on this is "The Trinity" by Edward Bickersteth. It is a very easy read, and not more then 200 pages.
I'll give you this. My "no" answer did not cover the subject. We have to see the Trinity in all areas and address each of them when we answer. My "no" was toward Holy Spirit and His distinguished Oneness that we find in each person of the Trinity. When view this way we see no worship given in the Bible.
However as you well pointed out the holy Trinity must also be seen as One. In this light Holy Spirit is worshipped. One passage to find this is Rev 5. The full Trinity is on the throne and when God the Father and the Lamb is worshipped Holy Spirit must also be worshipped.
As distinguished Oneness no worship.
As the wholeness of the Godhead...YES.
I trust the Lord is blessing your ministry too! May you be there for decades more, reaching those folk for Christ.4His_glory said:
I agree that we should not copy Charismatics who overemphasize the Holy Spirit at the expense of the Son. But let's not throw out the baby with the bath water, so to speak.
He Himself emphasizes the Son first. However, the Holy Spirit is God, isn't He? Check out all of those passages in the OT where God is worshipped. A quick search reveals 28 times in the Bible when "worship" and "God" appear in the same verse. How is it possible to worship the Holy Spirit without worshipping God, and worship God without worshipping the Holy Spirit? If you say, "Don't worship the Holy Spirit" you are saying in essence, "Don't worship God."
You can't say they are separate simply because they are separate persons of the trinity. They are eternally One God and only One!
Erickson points out in Christian Theology (2nd ed., pp. 873-874) times when the terms God and Holy Spirit are used interchangably, such as when Peter told Ananias and Saphira that they were lying to God and the Holy Spirit.
Again, in the same work on p. 879 Erickson writes, "The Holy Spirit, being fully divine, is to be accorded the same honor and respect that we give to the Father and the Son. It is appropriate to worship him as we do them. He should not be thought of as in any sense inferior in essence to them, although his role may sometimes be subordinated to theirs."
Hello Jarthur001. Thanks for clarifying. I believe I've answered somewhat in my post to 4His_glory. I have to hit the hay here in Japan, but maybe I can post more tomorrow.Jarthur001 said:
Let me just point out an inconsistency. You said that we should not worship the Holy Spirit, but we could pray to Him. Don't you believe that prayer is worship?
Oyasumi nasai. (Rest well). :sleeping_2:
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