Introducing Christian Doctrine by Millard Erickson

[Jarthur001]

It may help for the readers to see what you mean by attributes, and what you mean by essence

Can you give us a list of the attributes?
Then a list of the things you believe makes up the essence of God?

This was a few pages back...but I'll still reply.

I posted this on my 1st post on page 3 of the thread..


Attributes that make God, God (essence)
Knowledge of God, Foreknowledge of God, The Sovereignty of God, The Immutability of God, The Holiness of God, The Power of God

Divine Attributes in our God
Faithfulness, Goodness , Grace, Mercy, Love, Wrath


Again...not everyone list them as this. Some (including Pink) link all of these as attributes. It comes down to how you come to the table. If you just define who God is, then all of these are attributes...or placed in one list. If you look at it as I do, in that we define a supreme being (Hodge: The being of God) or as I call it..."what makes God, God", then you 1st look at just what would make up God in order to be called the almighty God. Then we look at the attributes of our God found in the Bible.

I'm not sure either way is wrong. I just see greater understanding dividing them into two groups.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Can we ever speak of an attribute of God which precedes all the other attributes?

You are giving me a headache TC......... :laugh:

I don't think so. He is perfect in all His attributes. How can one precede another? I really need an answer!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Benjamin]

Thanks AA... That is the way I see the sovereignity of God.. He is in control of everything.. even when it looks like we are... God still is in control.

Short and sweet general inquiry from on the sideline TinyTim,…Clarification...Are you implying/agreeing control to be the same as cause and effect in the above statement …?

 

[mcdirector]

I just started reading this thread tonight and it reminds me of the time I had to pick up for a statistics teacher 1/3 of the way through the course. My head is swimming.

But I've got to comment on TC's question for RB about does God have an attribute that precedes all other attributes - Since God is the I AM, and always was, wouldn't all His attributes have always been? Unless precedes means something theological here that I'm not picking up on . . .

Other things I'm thinking about.

 

[TCGreek]

You are giving me a headache TC......... :laugh:

I don't think so. He is perfect in all His attributes. How can one precede another? I really need an answer!!!!!!!!!!!!

What of His Holiness? How should we understand His holiness since everything and everyone else had a beginning?

 

[TCGreek]

I just started reading this thread tonight and it reminds me of the time I had to pick up for a statistics teacher 1/3 of the way through the course. My head is swimming.

But I've got to comment on TC's question for RB about does God have an attribute that precedes all other attributes - Since God is the I AM, and always was, wouldn't all His attributes have always been? Unless precedes means something theological here that I'm not picking up on . . .

Other things I'm thinking about.

I'm clean on this one. There are no hidden theological assumptions. :thumbs:

 

[mcdirector]

I'm clean on this one. There are no hidden theological assumptions. :thumbs:

OK, I'm in with the big brains so I had to ask.

 

[The Archangel]

Is any attribute primary? This is a great question!

I do not think they are separable into a hierarchy.

Scripture, as far as I know, does not ever suggest God's attributes can be separated from each other. In fact, I would argue that scripture implicitly argues that they are not separable. Here's why:

Redemption (For example). God's holiness is such that He cannot forgive sin (in a manner that "writes it off.") Rather, God's holiness demands payment for sin. (And, all sin is, ultimately, against God--David said his sin with Bathsheba was against God alone).

But, the scripture tells us God is also merciful. Because He is merciful, He provided substitutionary scrifices for forgivness (in the OT it was the sacrificial system which created context for and pre-shadowed the cross where the ultimate substitution took place).

Also, the scripture tells us that God is just and will not let the guilty go free.

So, redemption necessitates all these three attributes (and others, I'm sure) to come together so that God may accomplish the forgiveness of sins while maintaining His holiness, His mercy, and His justice.

It is in this way (because the attributes work together in toto) God can be said and can demonstrate that He is both just and justifier.

That's my take, anyway.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[tinytim]

Short and sweet general inquiry from on the sideline TinyTim,…Clarification...Are you implying/agreeing control to be the same as cause and effect in the above statement …?

I have set here for the last 10 minutes trying to figure out what you are asking... To tell you the truth, I really feel like a nobody amongst these well qualified theologians.. So pardon me if I ask you to be more specific.

I would guess that the calvinistic side of me (from my youth) has shown through in the statement I made...
The only thing I meant was this...
Nothing happens that surprises God... He is in control of everything.
But when we look at our decisions, it appears we make decisions.. but in the grand scheme of things, God is in control, and already knew what that decision is.

The one thing that seperates me from most Calvinists I know is the way I see Salvation before the foundation of the world.
I believe that since God exists outside time, the very moment I accepted Christ was the very moment Christ died for me, and the very moment God elected me. When we move the time element out of the way, the issue clears up in my mind. I can fully grasp both truths that God elected me before he started creation, and the truth that I accepted his Salvation.

To tell you the truth, that is why I stay out of most C/A debates here on BB... I believe they both are true. I know it sounds weird, but in my mind, I have rationalized it to the point that I can fully grasp both Calvinism and Arminianism. Therefore I can fully say that God is sovereign and in control, while man appears to make choices.

So to try to answer your questions.. there is no cause and effect..

Most Calvinists say that God chose (cause) and I accepted (effect)
Most Arminians say that Man chose (cause) and God elected (effect)

I say that both God and Man chose at the very same point.. .since there is no time in eternity.

I hope I answered your question.

 

[tinytim]

Is any attribute primary? This is a great question!

I do not think they are separable into a hierarchy.

Scripture, as far as I know, does not ever suggest God's attributes can be separated from each other. In fact, I would argue that scripture implicitly argues that they are not separable. Here's why:

Redemption (For example). God's holiness is such that He cannot forgive sin (in a manner that "writes it off.") Rather, God's holiness demands payment for sin. (And, all sin is, ultimately, against God--David said his sin with Bathsheba was against God alone).

But, the scripture tells us God is also merciful. Because He is merciful, He provided substitutionary scrifices for forgivness (in the OT it was the sacrificial system which created context for and pre-shadowed the cross where the ultimate substitution took place).

Also, the scripture tells us that God is just and will not let the guilty go free.

So, redemption necessitates all these three attributes (and others, I'm sure) to come together so that God may accomplish the forgiveness of sins while maintaining His holiness, His mercy, and His justice.

It is in this way (because the attributes work together in toto) God can be said and can demonstrate that He is both just and justifier.

That's my take, anyway.

Blessings,

The Archangel

I might add that when we start ranking God's attributes, we are misconstruing God. I agree that all attributes are equal...

 

[TCGreek]

Is any attribute primary? This is a great question!

I do not think they are separable into a hierarchy.

Scripture, as far as I know, does not ever suggest God's attributes can be separated from each other. In fact, I would argue that scripture implicitly argues that they are not separable. Here's why:

Redemption (For example). God's holiness is such that He cannot forgive sin (in a manner that "writes it off.") Rather, God's holiness demands payment for sin. (And, all sin is, ultimately, against God--David said his sin with Bathsheba was against God alone).

But, the scripture tells us God is also merciful. Because He is merciful, He provided substitutionary scrifices for forgivness (in the OT it was the sacrificial system which created context for and pre-shadowed the cross where the ultimate substitution took place).

Also, the scripture tells us that God is just and will not let the guilty go free.

So, redemption necessitates all these three attributes (and others, I'm sure) to come together so that God may accomplish the forgiveness of sins while maintaining His holiness, His mercy, and His justice.

It is in this way (because the attributes work together in toto) God can be said and can demonstrate that He is both just and justifier.

That's my take, anyway.

Blessings,

The Archangel

How do we then define God's Holiness when there's only God before creatureliness?

 

[tinytim]

This was a few pages back...but I'll still reply.

I posted this on my 1st post on page 3 of the thread..


Attributes that make God, God (essence)
Knowledge of God, Foreknowledge of God, The Sovereignty of God, The Immutability of God, The Holiness of God, The Power of God

Divine Attributes in our God
Faithfulness, Goodness , Grace, Mercy, Love, Wrath


Again...not everyone list them as this. Some (including Pink) link all of these as attributes. It comes down to how you come to the table. If you just define who God is, then all of these are attributes...or placed in one list. If you look at it as I do, in that we define a supreme being (Hodge: The being of God) or as I call it..."what makes God, God", then you 1st look at just what would make up God in order to be called the almighty God. Then we look at the attributes of our God found in the Bible.

I'm not sure either way is wrong. I just see greater understanding dividing them into two groups.

Thank you, I overlooked your previous post.
I realize that your list is not really exhaustive, but where would you fit infinity in that list... I would fit it in the category of "what makes God God"

I also notice that your list of Divine Attributes are the qualities that God shows mankind...
If he had never shown mercy to man, man would not have known He is merciful.
Same with Grace, truthfulness, faithfulness, etc...

Where would you put the fact that he is relational? Is that more an essence than a attribute?

 

[tinytim]

How do we then define God's Holiness when there's only God before creatureliness?

Allow me to give my 2 cents worth.. without evil, we would never be able to see God's holiness. Could this be the reason He allows evil to exist?

 

[TCGreek]

Allow me to give my 2 cents worth.. without evil, we would never be able to see God's holiness. Could this be the reason He allows evil to exist?

I understand what you're saying, Tim. But aren't painting a picture of a self-serving God when we say that? Maybe not!

 

[reformedbeliever]

What of His Holiness? How should we understand His holiness since everything and everyone else had a beginning?

I think it can best be sumed up... as far as we can as humans.... that all of God's attributes are absolutely perfect, including of course His holiness. He is perfectly holy. I believe scripture puts it as three times holy.
Is this perfect holiness because of the absolute perfection of His other attributes? Or is it His perfect attributes that make Him trice Holy?
I think maybe Mrs. Bitsy hit the nail on the head. He is the I Am. He is all of these things... and I'm sure a lot more than He has revealed to us. He simply is, and never changes.
As we come closer to understanding His glory, it should have the effect it had on Isaiah, and it does for me............. Woe is me for I am undone!

 

[tinytim]

I understand what you're saying, Tim. But aren't painting a picture of a self-serving God when we say that? Maybe not!

Perhaps, perhaps...
And I will say, Woe is me as well.. The closer I get to the Son, the more I burn! My imperfections show up, and he burns them away.... Just like a hot coal.

 

[tinytim]

BTW, guys, And gals ... I received an email from one of the students in our class stating that she is really enjoying the thread...

Can everyone say, "HI PAULA"?

And by the looks all that have viewed this thread (over 1700) times, we may be on to a new way to debate on BB... it seems to be popular.

Thank you everyone for keeping this civil.

 

[reformedbeliever]

How do we then define God's Holiness when there's only God before creatureliness?

As God existed in eternity past, before the creation, His Holiness was not changed by lack of creation or as creation began... since God is eternal and exists in and out of all time. In other words, as far as God is concerned, He is currently present in eternity past and eternity future.... right now. He still had less than holiness to *compare* if you will.... in the creatures He was going to create.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Hi Paula............. welcome to the BB!:godisgood:

 

[reformedbeliever]

Allow me to give my 2 cents worth.. without evil, we would never be able to see God's holiness. Could this be the reason He allows evil to exist?

I'll go a little further. In Isaiah 45:7 God says He creates evil in the form of calamity. God uses evil for His purposes. Sometimes we have to ask ourselves, "is evil good?" Is evil only evil in our own eyes? Ultimately it has its purpose in God's eternal plan.