Irenaeus

[Martin Marprelate]

People may know that Irenaeus, one of the earliest Church Fathers, proposed a theory of Recapitulation, whereby many of the matters of the Old Testament re-appear in the New. For example, Christ is the new Israel (Matthew 2:15). Some of his ideas work quite well, but he sometimes went too far. Can we see the origins of Mariolatry in this extract?

Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to your word. Luke 1:38 But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise they were both naked, and were not ashamed, Genesis 2:25 inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race.........
that deception being done away with, by which that virgin Eve, who was already espoused to a man, was unhappily misled — was happily announced, through means of the truth [spoken] by the angel to the Virgin Mary, who was [also espoused] to a man. For just as the former was led astray by the word of an angel, so that she fled from God when she had transgressed His word; so did the latter, by an angelic communication, receive the glad tidings that she should sustain (portaret) God, being obedient to His word. And if the former did disobey God, yet the latter was persuaded to be obedient to God, in order that the Virgin Mary might become an intercessor (advocata) for the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so is it rescued by a virgin; virginal disobedience having been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience.
[Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book 3, Chapter 22, sect. 4 and Book 5, Chapter 19, Sect. 1]

 

[Alan Gross]

People may know that Irenaeus, one of the earliest Church Fathers, proposed a theory of Recapitulation, whereby many of the matters of the Old Testament re-appear in the New. For example, Christ is the new Israel (Matthew 2:15). Some of his ideas work quite well, but he sometimes went too far. Can we see the origins of Mariolatry in this extract?

Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to your word. Luke 1:38 But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise they were both naked, and were not ashamed, Genesis 2:25 inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race.........
that deception being done away with, by which that virgin Eve, who was already espoused to a man, was unhappily misled — was happily announced, through means of the truth [spoken] by the angel to the Virgin Mary, who was [also espoused] to a man. For just as the former was led astray by the word of an angel, so that she fled from God when she had transgressed His word; so did the latter, by an angelic communication, receive the glad tidings that she should sustain (portaret) God, being obedient to His word. And if the former did disobey God, yet the latter was persuaded to be obedient to God, in order that the Virgin Mary might become an intercessor (advocata) for the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so is it rescued by a virgin; virginal disobedience having been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience.
[Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book 3, Chapter 22, sect. 4 and Book 5, Chapter 19, Sect. 1]

Yes.

 

[JonC]

I don't see it as an origin of Mariolatry, but certainly a forced and exaggerated view of both Mary and Eve.

It appears that Irenaeus focused on a truth (Jesus as the "second Adam", obedient as opposed to Adam's disobedience) and chose to use that as a lens through which to view Scripture.

Having a theory he looked to support that theory (a common mistake).


The Catholic Church could have been influenced by those writings, but I believe it is more probable they were influenced by Roman paganism (which already had that type of idolatry). Mary simply replaced the existing goddess.

 

[tyndale1946]

I don't see it as an origin of Mariolatry, but certainly a forced and exaggerated view of both Mary and Eve.

It appears that Irenaeus focused on a truth (Jesus as the "second Adam", obedient as opposed to Adam's disobedience) and chose to use that as a lens through which to view Scripture.

Having a theory he looked to support that theory (a common mistake).


The Catholic Church could have been influenced by those writings, but I believe it is more probable they were influenced by Roman paganism (which already had that type of idolatry). Mary simply replaced the existing goddess.

Irenaeus Against Heresies... In my bookcase... Irenaeus is a strange duck sometimes he can be spot on and sometime he'll miss the boat completely... Course that is true with a lot of writers old and new... Will scripture back up what the writer said?... If scripture can't harmonize with it, best to chuck it... Or put it on the back burner and wait and maybe God will reveal it to you later... A writer can be in error but if scripture rightly divided and applied can never be... Relating to scripture I have always found the error is in the reader NEVER the writer... Brother Glen

 

[JonC]

Irenaeus Against Heresies... In my bookcase... Irenaeus is a strange duck sometimes he can be spot on and sometime he'll miss the boat completely... Course that is true with a lot of writers old and new... Will scripture back up what the writer said?... If scripture can't harmonize with it, best to chuck it... Or put it on the back burner and wait and maybe God will reveal it to you later... A writer can be in error but if scripture rightly divided and applied can never be... Relating to scripture I have always found the error is in the reader NEVER the writer... Brother Glen

Another problem is reading those writings with "modern eyes". That's the same with reading Scripture as well.

Is Mary blessed among women? Did Mary really find favor with God (apart from other women)? Was Elizabeth really astonished that the mother of her Lord would come to her?

Do all generations really count Mary as blessed.....or do we tend to minimize Mary as just a vehicle God used for His purposes?

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I can see how people view the words of others within their own context.

We have a history of (rightly) condemning the idolatry of the Catholic Church. But there is also a danger of allowing that just condemnation to color our view of earlier writings and even Scripture.

 

[tyndale1946]

Another problem is reading those writings with "modern eyes". That's the same with reading Scripture as well.

Is Mary blessed among women? Did Mary really find favor with God (apart from other women)? Was Elizabeth really astonished that the mother of her Lord would come to her?

Do all generations really count Mary as blessed.....or do we tend to minimize Mary as just a vehicle God used for His purposes?

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I can see how people view the words of others within their own context.

We have a history of (rightly) condemning the idolatry of the Catholic Church. But there is also a danger of allowing that just condemnation to color our view of earlier writings and even Scripture.

John 2: 4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

If I called my Mother, Woman, who is now with the Lord, she would have knocked me into next week... Brother Glen

 

[JonC]

John 2: 4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

If I called my Mother, Woman, who is now with the Lord, she would have knocked me into next week... Brother Glen

lol...and that was the last thing He called her.

Yes....some things can certainly be lost in translation.

That is a good example about the "modern eyes" problem.

In Jesus' culture that use of "woman" would be like saying "ma’am". But it certainly sounds rude to our ears.

Another is comparing a woman to a dog. Rather than the woman going along with the example, today you'd be in for a fight.


We even see this across generations within our own lifetimes.

 

[37818]

or example, Christ is the new Israel (Matthew 2:15).

No. Israel was God's son in metaphor. And the Son of God was the literal fulfillment. Hosea 11:1, Exodus 4:22.

[Note, Galatians 6:16, ". . . the Israel of God . . . .", And Revelation 21:12, ". . . children of Israel . . . ."]

 

[tyndale1946]

John 2: 4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

If I called my Mother, Woman, who is now with the Lord, she would have knocked me into next week... Brother Glen

I'm not saying he called her Woman in disrespect, but in a tender manner and the tone of his voice was not the way we might read it... Though in scripture she is called blessed she was still a virgin vessel used by God to birth his Son, Jesus the Christ and fulfill prophecy... Brother Glen

Isaiah 7: 14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

 

[Silverhair]

People may know that Irenaeus, one of the earliest Church Fathers, proposed a theory of Recapitulation, whereby many of the matters of the Old Testament re-appear in the New. For example, Christ is the new Israel (Matthew 2:15). Some of his ideas work quite well, but he sometimes went too far. Can we see the origins of Mariolatry in this extract?

Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to your word. Luke 1:38 But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise they were both naked, and were not ashamed, Genesis 2:25 inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race.........
that deception being done away with, by which that virgin Eve, who was already espoused to a man, was unhappily misled — was happily announced, through means of the truth [spoken] by the angel to the Virgin Mary, who was [also espoused] to a man. For just as the former was led astray by the word of an angel, so that she fled from God when she had transgressed His word; so did the latter, by an angelic communication, receive the glad tidings that she should sustain (portaret) God, being obedient to His word. And if the former did disobey God, yet the latter was persuaded to be obedient to God, in order that the Virgin Mary might become an intercessor (advocata) for the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so is it rescued by a virgin; virginal disobedience having been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience.
[Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book 3, Chapter 22, sect. 4 and Book 5, Chapter 19, Sect. 1]

I can see the germ of it in these words of Irenaeus "
in order that the Virgin Mary might become an intercessor (advocata) for the virgin Eve," [Irenaeus Against Heresies

When we look at the Rosary we can see that she has been elevated to special position as intercessor.
Note the words of the Rosary and the # of times she is mentioned or asked to pray for us.

The steps to praying the Rosary are:

1. Make the Sign of the Cross and say the “Apostles’ Creed”
   
   
2. Say the “Our Father”
   
   
3. Say three “Hail Marys” for Faith, Hope, and Charity
   
   
4. Say the “Glory Be”
   
   
5. Announce the First Mystery and then say the “Our Father”
   
   
6. Say ten “Hail Marys” while meditating on the Mystery
   
   
7. Say the “Glory Be” (Optional: Say the “O My Jesus” prayer requested by Mary at Fatima)
   
   
8. Announce the Next Mystery; then say the “Our Father” and repeat these steps (6 through 8) as you continue through the remaining Mysteries.
   
   
9. Say the closing prayers: the “Hail Holy Queen” and “Final Prayer”
   
   
10. Make the “Sign of the Cross”
    

in order that the Virgin Mary might become an intercessor (advocata) for the virgin Eve. [Irenaeus Against Heresies

Rosary prayer in English {Hail Marys”}

Hail, Mary, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. * Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen. Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit.

 

[JonC]

I'm not saying he called her Woman in disrespect, but in a tender manner and the tone of his voice was not the way we might read it... Though in scripture she is called blessed she was still a virgin vessel used by God to birth his Son, Jesus the Christ and fulfill prophecy... Brother Glen

Isaiah 7: 14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

I agree.

Your post just had me thinking about calling my mother....or calling my wife...."woman". If we do that we have to be very careful about choosing the words that follow .

But yes, Mary was blessed among women, she was honored (not worshipped but counted by blessed because she was highly favored by God among women) by all generations, and she was the one God chose to give birth to Jesus.

My point is sometimes we, as Baptists, reduce the account of Mary to merely a vessel (not considering her highly favored by God, blessed among women) as a reaction to the Catholic practice of making Mary an idol.


For example, if I were to post that Mary was highly esteemed, favored by God, blessed among women, and that Elizabeth was honored by Mary, the mother of her Lord, visiting her....how long do you think it would take before some member objected or offered counter posts to prevent the idea of Mary worship?

I bet it would take no more than 3 posts.

The irony is that my post would not have anything to do with worshipping Mary. It would be simply speaking God's Word.

BUT because of our experience with Catholic paganism we (myself included) would automatically go to defending against the heresy.

We would read such a post in light of the Catholic Church, which did not even exist when those words were written.


It is easy to assume Irenaeus had some type of vibration towards Mary in mind. But there is no evidence that this is true. It is reading what came later into his writings.

 

[tyndale1946]

I can see the germ of it in these words of Irenaeus "
in order that the Virgin Mary might become an intercessor (advocata) for the virgin Eve," [Irenaeus Against Heresies

When we look at the Rosary we can see that she has been elevated to special position as intercessor.
Note the words of the Rosary and the # of times she is mentioned or asked to pray for us.

The steps to praying the Rosary are:

1. 
   
   
   • Make the Sign of the Cross and say the “Apostles’ Creed”
   • Say the “Our Father”
   • Say three “Hail Marys” for Faith, Hope, and Charity
   • Say the “Glory Be”
   • Announce the First Mystery and then say the “Our Father”
   • Say ten “Hail Marys” while meditating on the Mystery
   • Say the “Glory Be” (Optional: Say the “O My Jesus” prayer requested by Mary at Fatima)
   • Announce the Next Mystery; then say the “Our Father” and repeat these steps (6 through 8) as you continue through the remaining Mysteries.
   • Say the closing prayers: the “Hail Holy Queen” and “Final Prayer”
   • Make the “Sign of the Cross”

in order that the Virgin Mary might become an intercessor (advocata) for the virgin Eve. [Irenaeus Against Heresies

Rosary prayer in English {Hail Marys”}

Hail, Mary, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. * Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen. Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit.

No disrespect but how can Mary so called in the rosary (by the way Silverhair thank for posting that being Baptist I'm ignorant on RCC rituals)... Be called The Holy Mary the Mother Of God and pray for us sinners, as she didn't include herself as one... The one she birthed is her Savior too!... I wonder how the RCC would answer that?... Brother Glen

 

[tyndale1946]

I agree.

Your post just had me thinking about calling my mother....or calling my wife...."woman". If we do that we have to be very careful about choosing the words that follow .

But yes, Mary was blessed among women, she was honored (not worshipped but counted by blessed because she was highly favored by God among women) by all generations, and she was the one God chose to give birth to Jesus.

My point is sometimes we, as Baptists, reduce the account of Mary to merely a vessel (not considering her highly favored by God, blessed among women) as a reaction to the Catholic practice of making Mary an idol.


For example, if I were to post that Mary was highly esteemed, favored by God, blessed among women, and that Elizabeth was honored by Mary, the mother of her Lord, visiting her....how long do you think it would take before some member objected or offered counter posts to prevent the idea of Mary worship?

I bet it would take no more than 3 posts.

The irony is that my post would not have anything to do with worshipping Mary. It would be simply speaking God's Word.

BUT because of our experience with Catholic paganism we (myself included) would automatically go to defending against the heresy.

We would read such a post in light of the Catholic Church, which did not even exist when those words were written.


It is easy to assume Irenaeus had some type of vibration towards Mary in mind. But there is no evidence that this is true. It is reading what came later into his writings.

Which brings to mind something not related to my Mother, but relating to my Dad... Never call your Dad by his first name or the encounter you had with your Mother would be the same... I have a friend who starts her prayer with Papa... That's her way, not mine... Brother Glen

 

[JonC]

No disrespect but how can Mary so called in the rosary (by the way Silverhair thank for posting that being Baptist I'm ignorant on RCC rituals)... Be called The Holy Mary the Mother Of God and pray for us sinners, as she didn't include herself as one... The one she birthed is her Savior too!... I wonder how the RCC would answer that?... Brother Glen

Because Catholics do not hold Penal Substitution Theory but Substitution Theory (Aquinas rather than Calvin). Their system of Atonement is based on merit, not justice.

 

[JonC]

Which brings to mind something not related to my Mother, but relating to my Dad... Never call your Dad by his first name or the encounter you had with your Mother would be the same... I have a friend who starts her prayer with Papa... That's her way, not mine... Brother Glen

And never start a conversation with your father by saying "Dude...". That's another no go (one I do not know by experience.....I am smarter than that).

 

[tyndale1946]

Because Catholics do not hold Penal Substitution Theory but Substitution Theory (Aquinas rather than Calvin). Their system of Atonement is based on merit, not justice.

Not trying to derail this thread...But my substitution belief is this... Jesus Christ stood where I could not stand and did what it was IMPOSSIBLE for me to do... Brother Glen

Substitution in a nutshell!

 

[Silverhair]

No disrespect but how can Mary so called in the rosary (by the way Silverhair thank for posting that being Baptist I'm ignorant on RCC rituals)... Be called The Holy Mary the Mother Of God and pray for us sinners, as she didn't include herself as one... The one she birthed is her Savior too!... I wonder how the RCC would answer that?... Brother Glen

I know them through friends when I was just a wee lad. According to my friends mom Mary was sinless so no savior required.

 

[JonC]

Not trying to derail this thread...But my substitution belief is this... Jesus Christ stood where I could not stand and did what it was IMPOSSIBLE for me to do... Brother Glen

Substitution in a nutshell!

I know (and don't want to detail this thread either).

But you are talking Penal Substitution. Catholics are not (they hold Substitution).

Aquinas developed Substitution where Jesus is punished for us but not for sins. He distinguished between simple punishment (a man being punished for a crime) and substitution (a punishment for that man but not for the crime). God could punish Christ for us because He is not punishing Christ for our sins.

But where Anselm based Atonement on restoring God's honor Aquinas based Atonement on merit. This is where things like penance, indulgences, and the "treasury of merit" become important.

In context of this discussion, you asked how Mary could meditate for sinners if she was not herself a sinner.

Under Penal Substitution Theory Christ does because God laid our sins on Him and viewed Him as if He were a sinner. So Mary could not mediate for sinners.

But the Catholic Atonement is not Penal Substitution. It is Substitution based not on justice but merit. Mary can mediate precisely because (per their doctrine) she was not a sinner.

 

[tyndale1946]

I know (and don't want to detail this thread either).

But you are talking Penal Substitution. Catholics are not (they hold Substitution).

Aquinas developed Substitution where Jesus is punished for us but not for sins. He distinguished between simple punishment (a man being punished for a crime) and substitution (a punishment for that man but not for the crime). God could punish Christ for us because He is not punishing Christ for our sins.

But where Anselm based Atonement on restoring God's honor Aquinas based Atonement on merit. This is where things like penance, indulgences, and the "treasury of merit" become important.

In context of this discussion, you asked how Mary could meditate for sinners if she was not herself a sinner.

Under Penal Substitution Theory Christ does because God laid our sins on Him and viewed Him as if He were a sinner. So Mary could not mediate for sinners.

But the Catholic Atonement is not Penal Substitution. It is Substitution based not on justice but merit. Mary can mediate precisely because (per their doctrine) she was not a sinner.

2 Corinthians 5: 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

In the short version isn't that what I said or do you want to be all technical about it?... Brother Glen

 

[JonC]

2 Corinthians 5: 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

In the short version isn't that what I said or do you want to be all technical about it?... Brother Glen

?

I am saying that the Catholic doctrine that Mary is sinless does not pose a difficulty in their theology because they hold a system of Atonement based on merit rather than justice

I was answering your earlier question of how Mary could be sinless and a mediator for sinners. The answer is they hold a different theory of Atonement.

I'm not sure what you are asking now.