Irresistable Grace... How trow?

[Iconoclast]

It goes further than just "called." Romans 8:28 refers to believers as "the called."

This is the same group referred to in 8:30. They are the ones predestinated. The predestinated are not just called; they are THE called. The called are the justified. Always.

This suggest the validity of Iconoclast's post about the "effectual call" and the "general call" in post 18.

Yes Tom.....it is a good study in and of itself....The called are as you say identified....and what we are called to is also identified.....mostly called to Holy service and worship of our Lord.

70As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

71That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

72To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

74That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

75In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

1Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

[QUOTE1 Peter 1:15
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
][/QUOTE]

Romans 1:7
To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:2
Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

1 Corinthians 1:9
God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord

Colossians 3:15
And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

1 Thessalonians 2:12
That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory

1 Thessalonians 4:7
For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[convicted1]

To all cals, and also anyone else, what verses/passages seem to teach irresistable grace?

None.............

 

[12strings]

Quote: Originally Posted by humblethinker
To all cals, and also anyone else, what verses/passages seem to teach irresistable grace?

None.............

ah, but you missed a word in the OP...

 

[psalms109:31]

Few have been called irresistible called. The prophets and messengers to prepare the way for Jesus Christ. Since no one seek God, God had to choose them for His purpose to make the way for Jesus who will bring salvation to the whole world and whosoever believe in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

I agree with Calvinist before Jesus is glorified on earth, but Jesus open the door for the whole world and now that He is glorified anyone can come that even before the cross God made a way for non-elect by those who believed God through these messengers and was credited righteousness. They murdered these few, because their message wasn't what they wanted to hear.

Matthew 23 :
29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!

33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation. 37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’[Psalm 118:26]”

Luke 11:
47 “Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them. 48 So you testify that you approve of what your ancestors did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. 49 Because of this, God in
his wisdom said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.’ 50 Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.

1 Thessalonians 2:
13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. 14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last. [Or them fully]

So many mystery are now being revealed through Jesus Christ.

Those who listen and learn through Jesus the Fathers words will come and Jesus will make their way straight or direct their path.

 

[humblethinker]

snip... sorry, wrong thread...

 

[humblethinker]

Irresistable grace is clear in John 6:35-65 as 12 strings pointed out.

I disagree and would say that John 6 does not teach irresistible grace at all. For my specific reply (trying to keep John 6 discussion in the same thread) to your quote above and to 12 string's reference, please see this post on this thread.

Thanks!

 

[Skandelon]

zrs,

First, allow me to say BRAVO! It is very rare to see someone objectively and fully attempt to understand and even 'voice' their opponent's views. I really appreciate that and even if we never agree on this subject my respect for you remains. In your explanation you did a good job though I may have worded a few things differently. I'll pick up here where you asked some questions of my view:

I do not know how some contextual seeking interpretations, such as how Skandelons, try to describe the language to the immediate crowd in John 6. The drawing work Jesus mentioned did not appear to be future tense but was present tense therefore the interpretation that the gospel message is the drawing tool is inconsistent (John 5:25 "now is").

Revelation or truth is what 'draws' people. "The truth will set you free." If that revealed truth is being veiled (by a "spirit of stupor" for example) then that person can't be drawn. He has not been 'enabled' to come. Make sense so far?

The Jews, as a group (with the exception of a remnant) are having the truth veiled from them so they are not being drawn. They have not been 'enabled' to come. Jesus speaks in parables to the big group, but he pulls the small group aside and explains the truth (ref Mark 4; Matt 13 etc).

Big group = not drawn
Small group = drawn

The difference? TRUTH REVEALED

This is consistent for that time and this time. So there is no inconsistency or change from the time of John 6 and now. The only difference is that the truth wasn't being fully revealed to all peoples yet.

Some even attempt to disconnect the ones given to the Son to save (6:37 and 6:39) from all people groups and only apply it to the immediate Jewish audience as said above. That is erred because of John 10:16 where we see the sheep now come from other groups than Jews (see also 10:25-30 in comparison to John 6:35-40). Even if the sheep was interpreted as Jews only then we must uphold a Calvnistic view of the drawing work to the Jews in John 6:35-65. So that only holds so much water in itself.

Our view is that the first set of sheep refer to the remnant reserved from Israel from the hardening process so that the purpose of election might stand...meaning God had chosen Israel to bring the message of redemption to the rest of the world so He handpicked out his messengers from Israel (the first flock of sheep). The second flock of sheep that is brought in are those who believe their message, which generally are known to be mostly Gentiles, but I wouldn't limited it to them...I think its those who enter through faith in response to the gospel message sent out by the first fruits of the spirit, the remnant of Israel. (ref. John 17:21).

John 10:26- "you do not believe because you are not my sheep). So if this is teaching that God's drawing is indeed effectual, and it is, the our examination below of John 12:32 must be carefully considered.

And there is a more "effectual" element involved in God's appointment of his messengers. God certainly used greater means to get Jonah to go to Nineveh. And no one would deny the unique means God used to call out Paul. And we see how God does what is necessary to bring Thomas to faith by showing himself to him. But, proof that God uses "outward/normative" means (fish, blinding light, nail scared hands) to ensure His message is delivered is NOT proof that God uses secret/inward irresistible means to cause select individuals in their audiences to believe that message. Make sense?

I'll stop there for now.... Let me know if I'm making sense.

 

[humblethinker]

Can I ask what does "How trow" mean?

Trow defined.
I meant it to be short for and understood as, "how do you think or trust this way?"... maybe it would more clearly be worded, "How Trow Thou?"?

 

[agedman]

I'd like to jump in briefly and express what happened to me as an illustration.

I was dead. Completely. I had no desire to live, I had no consideration of the impact of the world about me, as dead it held me within its waves. I was afloat in the dark upon the sea of this world and it moved me about by the currents of world system at the world's will.

I do not know why, nor do I know the purpose, but Christ reached out. He grasp hold of me. He pulled me on board His vessel. He breathed into me. But, I had no will to live.

But then, He did what non other could. He gave up his own life and will and placed them within me. I had no choice, but to respond. I became alive because of what He gave.

I could go on, but I won't other than to say, the old will is still dead and unresponsive to the things of God. But Christ's will in me, His life living in me, has prodded this old man to long to be joined to Him in praise and thanksgiving.

"For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us."

I do not understand the Arm. thinking that they are alive enough to decide for themselves that they can accept or reject what is totally in God's domain.

 

[MB]

While I understand your point. I want to make sure everyone is open to possibilities and realizes that there are small variations in positions.

I personally am a 5-pointer if you will. I do not totally adhere to the idea of regeneration preceding faith. It is rather complicated how I view it, but the idea the regeneration preceding faith is not a must to explain effectual calling or irresistable grace. I also do not view inability of the depraved being the same as most do. You are correct that nobody is saved before we know what we believe in, that is an misrepresentation of a Calvinist's view even if you see that as the logical end of of the view. I as a Calvinist do not believe that we are saved prior to faith nor do we get saved then understand later. All of that is misunderstanding.


Something I want to point out is that just because a particular aspect of Calvinism seems incorrect does not mean that is the only way. For example some reject and close their ears because of a view like regeneration preceding faith. That of course should not elliminate the idea of effectual calling or irresistable grace. Regeneration preceding faith is a view to explain how that works. I find that that Calvinistic idea is rather unclear in Scripture.

You said, "Many understand and resist anyway." I hope you don't shut your ears based on this either as I agree with you. People do comprehend the gospel and reject it, but that is not what a Calvinist would deny. So I refute your 5th jab

I can't say what you believe. All I know is what you tell me. With this in mind it would certainly seem to anyone who just read this particular post that you do not believe in irresistible grace either.

Since John 6 is the main passage of the night thus far why not deal with it by itself and see what comes out of it? Reply to some posts about it thus far.

John 6 in my opinion doesn't teach irresistible grace to me. Verses like;
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I agree that no man comes to Christ all by his lonesome. It just doesn't happen. God is the author and finisher of our faith. This verse has nothing to do with grace being irresistible. The next verse places requirement from us for the Father on the giving of us to Christ.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

There are many people who know what math is for instance but to learn math it self like the gosple takes a certain amount of study. There are those who know who Jesus is but do not really know Him. To know Him is to trust Him.
The verse above also says they will come to Him yet it does not say they will irresistibly come simply because, not all do.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

The conforming doesn't occur until the man is indwelled with the Holy Spirit
Many Cals believe this means they are predestined to Salvation when actually it says nothing of the sort. It doesn't say you were appointed or elected. What it does say is that you and I are foreknown and we are known the minute we pick up a Bible and start to study it in earnest.

No one understands scripture with out the Holy Spirit. They might read it but to understand it we need the Holy Spirit. When we hear it we are being influenced by the Spirit by His giving us understanding. Some even resist understanding by letting their minds drift to other things when hearing. This is what I did for a long time as a child growing up. I pretended to listen but my thoughts were elsewhere.

Irresistible grace was an idea thought up by Augustine. Who can resist God? Ultimatly no one can however God allows our resistance.
God certainly can do what ever He wants to do. He doesn't need our approval or consent. Yet our God would rather have those who are willing to lay down there lives for Him as He willingly laid down His life for us.

2Co 8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.
I'm convinced that God will not cause or other wise force a man to be willing.

MB

 

[agedman]

zrs,

Revelation or truth is what 'draws' people. "The truth will set you free."

I disagree. It is not "truth or revelation" that draws a person. It is the SPIRIT of truth - the holy spirit.

The words do not draw, the revelation does not draw, nor does a man's will draw.

zrs,
The Jews, as a group (with the exception of a remnant) are having the truth veiled from them so they are not being drawn. They have not been 'enabled' to come. Jesus speaks in parables to the big group, but he pulls the small group aside and explains the truth (ref Mark 4; Matt 13 etc).

Big group = not drawn
Small group = drawn

The difference? TRUTH REVEALED

Wrong. Both groups were still in unbelief and afraid until the Holy Spirit (who would guide them into all truth) was delivered. Do not forget that Christ chose would be filled with the enemy and commit suicide. It is not Truth or Revelation that prompts nor saves.

zrs,

I'll stop there for now.... Let me know if I'm making sense.

Not only are you not "making sense" but you are blending salvation with the promise given to Israel of the kingdom and the promise given that the gentiles would be grafted into the Kingdom of God.

Salvation and a discussion on the covenant given Israel and how the gentiles fit into that covenant are completely separate.

No one is saved differently from the beginning of time until the world and heaven pass away in a fervent heat. I repeat, all that have been, that are or that will be saved have salvation imparted to them by the grace of God through Holy Spirit with the same regeneration and the same security in Him.

 

[MB]

I do not understand the Arm. thinking that they are alive enough to decide for themselves that they can accept or reject what is totally in God's domain.

I can't speak for Arminians I've not really met one on this board.
When my conviction first began. It made me hate the one who was convicting me. Simply because it hurt so very much. It angered me. As the conviction only got worse over time this hatred for being so convicted had turn into self hatred after I could see who I really was.
I didn't like what I knew was the real me with out God.

Everyman is convinced of Christ who is saved everyman is convicted of his own deeds. My choice wasn't Christ He had already chosen to save me. My choice was to surrender to the righteousness of God. Romans 10:3 To give up my rebellion. No longer doing anything to resist is not a work it's a result of the conviction and the convincing of Jesus Christ. Salvation is all of God, man can do nothing to save himself except to give up. Yes there are requirements. Giving up is the most important of all.
MB

 

[agedman]

A problem with folks coming to an understanding of "irresistible grace" is their ability to understand the will of man and the will of God.

The will of man is not replaced at salvation.

Some consider that at the point of decision the new nature is given.

That is wrong thinking. For "no man seeks God" and "the natural man receives nothing of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Therefore, the person MUST have a new nature already given to "quicken" them into expressing belief.

Every person to which the new nature is given will come to Christ. That person has the will of Christ (remember Christ is the very Word of God in the flesh) and the Word will not return void.

So then, the the Grace of God in salvation is "irresistible."

 

[Van]

One of the first things that jumps out at you when considering what the Cal's offer as verses that seem to suggest Irresistible Grace is their rewriting the definition of words.
When scripture says God loved us before we loved Him, love becomes code for irresistible grace. Anyone can find anything in scripture with such a methodology, even invisible pink elephants.

Lets consider one of the examples offered in this thread, Jude one. "The called" becomes those altered with the "effectual call" i.e. those God caused to come to Christ using draw as meaning drag or compel irresistibly. First, to support this work of fiction, verses are misconstrued, i.e. scripture does not say as the Cal's represent, that all drawn come to Jesus. Next we have draw which means when used metaphorically to attract someone by force of argument or presentation, i.e. we are drawn by God's lovingkindness, being redefined to mean drag, i.e. to compel irresistibly, hence all drawn come to Jesus.

The NKJV presents a fairly accurate version of Jude 1: Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

The HCSB renders called as "the called" which in my opinion is a valid interpretation, but an inaccurate translation. The first thing to note is the order, called, sanctified, preserved or kept. Now in the Greek the word translated called appears last. So I do not know if the grammar points to moving called to the front of the line, or whether it is simply an effort at harmonization because lots of verses say we are called, chosen and faithful. In any event, pending someone teaching me the move is unwarranted, I will claim the scriptural order is called, sanctified, and preserved.

If a person hears and understands the gospel, they have heard the call, but not necessarily accepted it. Cal's refer to this as the external call. Now if a person accepts the call and responds whole-heartedly by trusting in Christ alone for salvation, they have been "called" in a sense. But if for some reason God does not credit their faith in Christ as righteousness, then they are not spiritually placed in Christ, i.e. sanctified or set apart. But if God does credit their faith as righteousness, then they are "summoned," "transferred" and "put" into fellowship with Christ and become "the called."

 

[Van]

A quick question, when a person is given the external call, do they hear and understand if they have not been regenerated?

 

[agedman]

A quick question, when a person is given the external call, do they hear and understand if they have not been regenerated?

I am not certain what you mean by "external call" but assume you mean something such as another person imploring the lost to come to Christ.

The answer is yes and no.

Yes, they (if they have the physical capacity to hear and understand) can in fact hear the speaking voice.

They can by emotional or psychological imprinting respond.

But, that doesn't equate to salvation.

Unless that person has been "quicken" by the very "Spirit of God" all the calling is in vain. I point to Judas Iscariot who walked with Christ, talked with Christ, responded to the physical presence of Christ... but was never "quickened" by the Holy Spirit.

So, yes they may hear, and even respond. But be saved - nope.

Many are called - few are chosen.

 

[psalms109:31]

When i see that no one seeks God i do not see irresistible grace having to take place, but that is men reasoning. When i see Paul life i see it as a call to go reach them knowing God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. It is foolish to the wise who depend on themselves not to those who depend on God through Jesus

 

[agedman]

When i see that no one seeks God i do not see irresistible grace having to take place, but that is men reasoning.

No the scriptures clearly teach that a person is incapable of understanding, or even a desire to consider (think about) God before there is a quickening that takes place within them.

When i see Paul life i see it as a call to go reach them knowing God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. It is foolish to the wise who depend on themselves not to those who depend on God through Jesus

You are correct that the folk who depend upon themselves are foolish. In fact Paul stated that God created the foolish things of this world to confound the wise.

However, recall how Paul conducted his life as Saul and the experience of conversion?

Everyone else heard merely noise such as thunder. Paul was struck down and heard the very voice of God. The difference - Paul was given the ears to hear.

 

[MB]

ah, but you missed a word in the OP...

Yes but only seemed to be is still just theory not fact.
MB

 

[MB]

A problem with folks coming to an understanding of "irresistible grace" is their ability to understand the will of man and the will of God.

The will of man is not replaced at salvation.

Some consider that at the point of decision the new nature is given.

That is wrong thinking. For "no man seeks God" and "the natural man receives nothing of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Therefore, the person MUST have a new nature already given to "quicken" them into expressing belief.

Every person to which the new nature is given will come to Christ. That person has the will of Christ (remember Christ is the very Word of God in the flesh) and the Word will not return void.

So then, the the Grace of God in salvation is "irresistible."

The problem is as I see it there is no scriptural basis from which we could understand this to be the case. Regeneration is being born again and like someone else said if this were true then we would have sinners saved with out faith. No one is saved with out first believing in the gospel truth of Christ.
MB