Irresistable Grace... How trow?

[MB]

If not then at least a text 2000 years old
MB

 

[MB]

The scriptures definitely teach that a person has NO capacity to understand or believe unless God works to awaken them to that need.




If I were to extrapolate your opinion that a person is not totally depraved, then it follows that some part (no matter how miniscule) of them would deserve heaven.

That cannot be for two reasons.

First: No one has not broken the law, and everyone is guilty having broken ALL the law.

Second: If what you say is really that is true, God's judgment upon them who don't believe (the second death) would be unfair and He would certainly be dethroned - which is what the enemy desires. For either a person is totally lost with all the attributes (a total depravity) or a person can gain heaven by their own goodness.

I glad to see you believe that the word All is all inclusive as well.

As far as total depravity;
I wasn't saying men who do not believe in God aren't guilty because everyman who doesn't believe in God is guilty of the first commandment and therefore deserve hell. How ever there is still no scripture that teaches we have to be regenerated in order to believe. Which is the heart of total depravity.
Salvation of course doesn't happen with out God. He is the Author and finisher of our faith. Salvation is all of God. This does not mean we are saved twice or saved first then made to believe. No faith No Salvation and that is the way it is.
If total depravity is true then you should be able to prove it from scripture alone.
MB

 

[JesusFan]

Can you prove the Greeks had grammar 2000 years ago if so please presents us with the text.
MB

Koine Greek was the "common" language in the Roman Empire at time of Christ...

had rules for its Grammer , just like English does...

What is your question?

 

[agedman]

So, are you saying a person can be spiritually alive, being born again and having a new nature for years before they believe on Jesus?

Yes or no?

I am saying that it is God's business when, how and to what extent the new life and faith is implanted into humankind.

The Macedonian was purposed by Christ before he heard the call and before Peter was instructed by the vision to change directions.

Saul was unseated on the way to Damascus and it after he questioned who was doing the talking. He certainly heard the voice, and saw the light, and knowing something far greater in authority and power had intervened, he inquired as to who was it was.

 

[JesusFan]

I am saying that it is God's business when, how and to what extent the new life and faith is implanted into humankind.

The Macedonian was purposed by Christ before he heard the call and before Peter was instructed by the vision to change directions.

Saul was unseated on the way to Damascus and it after he questioned who was doing the talking. He certainly heard the voice, and saw the light, and knowing something far greater in authority and power had intervened, he inquired as to who was it was.

be careful on this, as you might get tagged as one who actually believes that God can do as He pleases, instead of waiting upon us in order to get things accomplished!

 

[agedman]

I glad to see you believe that the word All is all inclusive as well.

As far as total depravity;
I wasn't saying men who do not believe in God aren't guilty because everyman who doesn't believe in God is guilty of the first commandment and therefore deserve hell. How ever there is still no scripture that teaches we have to be regenerated in order to believe. Which is the heart of total depravity.
Salvation of course doesn't happen with out God. He is the Author and finisher of our faith. Salvation is all of God. This does not mean we are saved twice or saved first then made to believe. No faith No Salvation and that is the way it is.
If total depravity is true then you should be able to prove it from scripture alone.
MB

First:
Total depravity is the absolute inability of a person even to be aware of God's claim on their life. Their essence is so filled with evil that they are incapable of even a consideration of God. I give you a short example and then specific areas of the "essence" of a depraved person.

Lazarus was dead. He had to be awaken by Christ to respond.
In likeness, a person is "dead in trespasses and sin" and have to be awaken.

A short list of other verses showing all areas of humanity depraved:

Ecclesiastes 9:3, Psalm 36:1-2 (depraved thought life)

Ephesians 4:17-18, Romans 1:28-31 (depraved understanding)

2 Timothy 2:25-26, Titus 3:3 (slave to the depravity of sin)

2 Timothy 3:2-4, Proverbs 21:10 (desires depraved)

Romans 8:5-8, Titus 1:15-16 (total or complete depravity)

Again, the depravity extends to all areas of the human (as I showed by these few Scriptures).

Second:

You are implying that "faith" is man generated.

It is NOT!

Man does not place a corrupted, depraved "faith" in God - it is impossible for God to accept!

The Scriptures clearly state that man is given the "measure of faith" by God. Paul and Peter specifically instruct us about how we are to build and enlarge upon that faith.

Note: the enlargement of the faith is not meaning that the measure God gives is actually grown larger. Rather, it is as a small mirror which is enhanced in beauty and attractiveness by the adornments (such as a encasement of intricately woven threads of silk, gold, silver, and perhaps other precious stones).

When Christ said, "If we had faith, as a grain of a mustard seed..." He didn't say if we could just expressed our faith, or if we just could conjure up enough faith... No,He said if we had faith AS a grain....

It is God that can move the mountain - not us.

It is God that can solve the difficulties - not us.

It is the Faith of God, from God, expressing itself to God that is implanted into the person.

 

[MB]

First:
Total depravity is the absolute inability of a person even to be aware of God's claim on their life. Their essence is so filled with evil that they are incapable of even a consideration of God. I give you a short example and then specific areas of the "essence" of a depraved person.

Lazarus was dead. He had to be awaken by Christ to respond.
In likeness, a person is "dead in trespasses and sin" and have to be awaken.

A short list of other verses showing all areas of humanity depraved:

Ecclesiastes 9:3, Psalm 36:1-2 (depraved thought life)

Ephesians 4:17-18, Romans 1:28-31 (depraved understanding)

2 Timothy 2:25-26, Titus 3:3 (slave to the depravity of sin)

2 Timothy 3:2-4, Proverbs 21:10 (desires depraved)

Romans 8:5-8, Titus 1:15-16 (total or complete depravity)

Again, the depravity extends to all areas of the human (as I showed by these few Scriptures).

I have no arguement with any of these scriptures to prove man to be a sinful creature. This is true. However not one of them ever states man can not come to God once drawn. Not one states man has to be saved before he can believe. Not one indicates man's supposed inability to understand the gospel. Not one of them do that Just Calvinism does that.

Second:

You are implying that "faith" is man generated.

It is NOT!

[/quote]
Only because this is what you want to believe. What I actually believe is in;
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


Notice that our pitiful faith is required yet it isn't the faith that saves the man. It is the faith of Jesus Christ that Justifies the man. We only believe that we might be saved by the faith of Christ. It is His faith that is applied. It is His righteousness that is applied. I know our pitiful faith could not save squat. Yet as you can see it is still necessary.

Man does not place a corrupted, depraved "faith" in God - it is impossible for God to accept!

The Scriptures clearly state that man is given the "measure of faith" by God. Paul and Peter specifically instruct us about how we are to build and enlarge upon that faith.

I know where faith comes from;
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Now you do too. Gift? yes it is a gift and it comes from the very Word of God.

Note: the enlargement of the faith is not meaning that the measure God gives is actually grown larger. Rather, it is as a small mirror which is enhanced in beauty and attractiveness by the adornments (such as a encasement of intricately woven threads of silk, gold, silver, and perhaps other precious stones).

When Christ said, "If we had faith, as a grain of a mustard seed..." He didn't say if we could just expressed our faith, or if we just could conjure up enough faith... No,He said if we had faith AS a grain....

It is God that can move the mountain - not us.

It is God that can solve the difficulties - not us.

It is the Faith of God, from God, expressing itself to God that is implanted into the person.

It is not implanted as if by some miracle. Faith my friend indeed does come by hearing the gospel.
Like many here you seem to have assumed the negative when it was never implied
MB

 

[agedman]

You are correct that "faith comes by hearing the Word." To restate, the Word is the deliverer of the faith but the Word that IS NOT faith itself.

A worldly example. The word is the UPS carrier delivering the package to the home. UPS is not the package it is the delivery system.


Faith does come directly as a gift from God.
"For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."

 

[agedman]

I have no arguement with any of these scriptures to prove man to be a sinful creature. This is true. However not one of them ever states man can not come to God once drawn. Not one states man has to be saved before he can believe. Not one indicates man's supposed inability to understand the gospel. Not one of them do that Just Calvinism does that."

You asked about total depravity.

I showed you a series of verses that apply specifically to elements of the human nature and being that showed that specific element is depraved.

I then posted a couple verse references that showed how the depravity was totally consuming.

Would you pull each verse in context and show how they were miss applied to validate the total inability of the depraved to even be aware of God other than to mock and scorn?

Merely stating that a man is "a sinful creature" doesn't compare to the absolute rejection that God states over that creature. If God were so thorough on showing that the "sinful creature" is beyond all hope in their natural state, then why do you not consider that mankind in their natural state is totally depraved?

You state that man can come to God "once drawn." But ALL are drawn!

Jesus said "If I be lifted up I will draw (drag) ALL men to me." Now some apply this statement only to salvation. NOT!!!

In context, Jesus was signifying the death he was to endure and in that death we know he took control of both death and hell.

In the larger picture it follows that, because he now holds the keys of both hell and death, He will certainly "drag" the unbeliever to bow at His presence.

So, all means all and all will be drawn or dragged.

 

[MB]

You are correct that "faith comes by hearing the Word." To restate, the Word is the deliverer of the faith but the Word that IS NOT faith itself.

A worldly example. The word is the UPS carrier delivering the package to the home. UPS is not the package it is the delivery system.


Faith does come directly as a gift from God.
"For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."

This measure of faith that everyman receives Is one reason why natural men hate the name Jesus Christ. Simply because he knows from this faith that Christ is the son of God and that scares men to think of a power greater than them selves.
I have yet to meet anyone who doesn't know who Christ is said to be even though they are still lost. Of course I'm not a missionary in a far away land.
Even Islamics know what Christians believe. They just refuse to believe it them selves.
MB

 

[JesusFan]

I have no arguement with any of these scriptures to prove man to be a sinful creature. This is true. However not one of them ever states man can not come to God once drawn. Not one states man has to be saved before he can believe. Not one indicates man's supposed inability to understand the gospel. Not one of them do that Just Calvinism does that.

Man can hear the Gospel of the Cross, but are blinded to getting saved by it, due to being sinners and to satan blinding them to the glory of the Cross...

Only because this is what you want to believe. What I actually believe is in;
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


Notice that our pitiful faith is required yet it isn't the faith that saves the man. It is the faith of Jesus Christ that Justifies the man. We only believe that we might be saved by the faith of Christ. It is His faith that is applied. It is His righteousness that is applied. I know our pitiful faith could not save squat. Yet as you can see it is still necessary.

What saves ANY of us would be the shedding of the blood of jesus upon the Cross, His death as payment/atonement for our behalf...

I know where faith comes from;
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Now you do too. Gift? yes it is a gift and it comes from the very Word of God.

It is the gift of God, unto those whom He has chosen in Christ to receive redemption!{/quote]

It is not implanted as if by some miracle. Faith my friend indeed does come by hearing the gospel.
Like many here you seem to have assumed the negative when it was never implied
MB

faith is the Gift of God unto sinners, that allows them to be enabled to respond to the calling of god unto them to receive Christ and become saved!