Irresistable Grace... How trow?

[MB]

I understand the context quite well. What you are suggesting--believing in Jesus is being born of God--does not wash with the text.

That is strange indeed because verse 15 states;
"Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." Seems you deny what the text says altogether.

Remember all the occurrences of the verb and participle "born" is in the Passive, meaning that something is done to you by an outside force (God, in this case). Being born again, in this passage, is not something you can do to or for yourself. So, believing, according to the text is not what gets you born again.

The Archangel

You know I don't worry over such things. God's leading and teaching is far better than worrying about Greek Grammar.
MB

 

[jbh28]

The parable of the sower refutes Irresistable Grace, all four soils received the exact same seed (word of God). The difference was in the hearers. The way side was hard and trodden down representing someone with a hardened heart. The stoney ground received the word but had no root, the thorny ground received the word but fell away when persecution arose, the good soil received the word and kept it, bringing forth fruit.

How so? How does this refute irresistible grace? The last seed was saved. So I would say they were elect and received. The first 3 were not elect and rejected.

 

[Winman]

I believe the difficulty is that Calvinists relate being born again to physical birth. None of us asked to be born physically, it came about by the union of our parents.

But that is the point, it takes TWO to produce a child.

1 Cor 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two saith he, shall be one flesh.
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

The scriptures say a husband and wife are one flesh. How can this be? CHILDREN. Our children are a union of our individual flesh, they look like both parents. But... they are individuals, they are not us. They are a NEW creature.

It is the same with the new birth, when our spirit is joined to the Holy Spirit we become ONE spirit. It is a new birth and a new individual, a new creature.

Jesus must first wash us in his blood before we can be joined to him. We are washed or justified when we place our faith in him. We now have the beautiful white wedding gown. Now we are baptized into his Spirit. We become one and produce a new creature.

It takes two joined together to produce a birth. When we are joined to Jesus we are born again.

 

[convicted1]

I believe the difficulty is that Calvinists relate being born again to physical birth. None of us asked to be born physically, it came about by the union of our parents.

But that is the point, it takes TWO to produce a child.

1 Cor 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two saith he, shall be one flesh.
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

The scriptures say a husband and wife are one flesh. How can this be? CHILDREN. Our children are a union of our individual flesh, they look like both parents. But... they are individuals, they are not us. They are a NEW creature.

It is the same with the new birth, when our spirit is joined to the Holy Spirit we become ONE spirit. It is a new birth and a new individual, a new creature.

Jesus must first wash us in his blood before we can be joined to him. We are washed or justified when we place our faith in him. We now have the beautiful white wedding gown. Now we are baptized into his Spirit. We become one and produce a new creature.

It takes two joined together to produce a birth. When we are joined to Jesus we are born again.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[agedman]

That is strange indeed because verse 15 states;
"Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." Seems you deny what the text says altogether.

You know I don't worry over such things. God's leading and teaching is far better than worrying about Greek Grammar.
MB

May I add a bit on the thinking of "born."

It seems to me that John is helping Nico's understanding over come the years of imprinting that the law could save.

Christ was showing that a person in the natural state was "condemned already." Nico's schooling was in opposition to the teaching of Christ and he had to understand that a new creation was necessary.

Nico. didn't visualize a person had to be "born again" not of the same seed as the first which used corruptible seed that formed a creature in a sack of water, but of the implanting of incorruptible seed that formed a new creature.

 

[Winman]

How so? How does this refute irresistible grace? The last seed was saved. So I would say they were elect and received. The first 3 were not elect and rejected.

It refutes IG because the same exact grace (the seed) was given to all 4 soils. The difference was in the hearer, not the grace given.

Tit 3:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men.
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present men.

Notice Paul says ALL MEN in verse 11 but says US and WE in verse 12? This shows Paul was speaking of 100% of men in verse 11, otherwise he should have said this grace has appeared to US or ONLY US.

If Paul meant only the elect receive this grace, it is inconsistent to say ALL MEN in vs. 11.

And notice this grace brings salvation. It is effectual for salvation.

But only those who listened learned, and were taught received this grace.

Jn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

This is why Jesus warned his disciples to take heed what they hear. You must pay attention, hear of the Father (the scriptures), and be taught to come to Jesus.

So, this is why Paul said TEACHING US in vs. 12 above, only those who listen and learn of the Father will be saved. If a man chooses not to listen and learn, it is his own fault, God has shown the same grace to ALL MEN.

 

[agedman]

I believe the difficulty is that Calvinists relate being born again to physical birth. None of us asked to be born physically, it came about by the union of our parents.
...

It is the same with the new birth, when our spirit is joined to the Holy Spirit we become ONE spirit. It is a new birth and a new individual, a new creature.

Our corrupted "will" or spirit does not die nor is it "joined to the Holy Spirit."

The Grace of God implants the measure of God's faith. That is the ground is prepared for the purpose of receiving the seed. Other ground has other purpose. Only the prepared ground produces a harvest that is taken.

Paul described a war of worlds that takes place between God's spirit and the corrupt spirit within us in which we are to submit to God.

There is NEVER a union of spirits - God never unions corrupt with the incorruptible. But makes us a new creature with a new nature that one day shall inhabit a new body.

Jesus must first wash us in his blood before we can be joined to him. We are washed or justified when we place our faith in him. We now have the beautiful white wedding gown. Now we are baptized into his Spirit. We become one and produce a new creature.

It takes two joined together to produce a birth. When we are joined to Jesus we are born again.

Again, the sequence as you present it is a bit off.

First, Christ has already shed his blood for ALL mankind. The lost go to hell for unbelief in the finished work of the Cross. (See John 3:17 and following for them being "condemned already ...")

Second, the two that produce one are not the corrupt and incorruptible. It is the Incorruptible seed placed into a new nature God through Grace gave (prepared ground) that joins.

 

[convicted1]

It refutes IG because the same exact grace (the seed) was given to all 4 soils. The difference was in the hearer, not the grace given.

Tit 3:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men.
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present men.

Notice Paul says ALL MEN in verse 11 but says US and WE in verse 12? This shows Paul was speaking of 100% of men in verse 11, otherwise he should have said this grace has appeared to US or ONLY US.

If Paul meant only the elect receive this grace, it is inconsistent to say ALL MEN in vs. 11.

And notice this grace brings salvation. It is effectual for salvation.

But only those who listened learned, and were taught received this grace.

Jn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

This is why Jesus warned his disciples to take heed what they hear. You must pay attention, hear of the Father (the scriptures), and be taught to come to Jesus.

So, this is why Paul said TEACHING US in vs. 12 above, only those who listen and learn of the Father will be saved. If a man chooses not to listen and learn, it is his own fault, God has shown the same grace to ALL MEN.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: I've got your back, Brother, if no one else does.

 

[agedman]

It refutes IG because the same exact grace (the seed) was given to all 4 soils. The difference was in the hearer, not the grace given.

The Scriptures teach that the seed is "the word of God."

Grace is NOT the Word of God.

Tit 3:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men.
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present men.

Notice Paul says ALL MEN in verse 11 but says US and WE in verse 12? This shows Paul was speaking of 100% of men in verse 11, otherwise he should have said this grace has appeared to US or ONLY US.

If Paul meant only the elect receive this grace, it is inconsistent to say ALL MEN in vs. 11.

And notice this grace brings salvation. It is effectual for salvation.

But only those who listened learned, and were taught received this grace.

Did not Christ bring salvation?

Does not the Scriptures teach that God has imprinted into the heart of every man the (10) commandments.

Grace certainly has "appeared" to all men for we all know that even if we attempt to "deny ungodliness and worldly lusts" it is impossible. The need of something more than the ten commandments is clear. Even Christ said "if I be lifed up..." but that drawing doesn't equate to everyone will be saved.

Jn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

This is why Jesus warned his disciples to take heed what they hear. You must pay attention, hear of the Father (the scriptures), and be taught to come to Jesus.

So, this is why Paul said TEACHING US in vs. 12 above, only those who listen and learn of the Father will be saved. If a man chooses not to listen and learn, it is his own fault, God has shown the same grace to ALL MEN.

If I were to take your view, then salvation is man controlled and can be gained or lost upon a man willing to listen, learn, and be teachable.

What if a person were deaf, retarded, and brain damaged from birth? Your view would have that person eternally lost.

That is not Scriptural. Because God does not depend on ANY capacity or ability of man, a deaf, retarded, and brain dead person can be saved. That is the way ALL are conditioned before salvation that are saved.

 

[Van]

Reply to Tom,

I'd like to throw this scripture passage into the mix:
Ezekiel 36:26-27

Is the new heart and new spirit like the new nature given to believers?
Is the Spirit God put within them regeneration? Or is it salvation? The premise here is that regeneration and salvation are two separate events.
When God causes one to walk in his statutes, is that irresistible grace, or akin to it?

A related question: Does God drag people kicking and screaming into heaven, fighting it all the way? Or does this giving them a new heart mean He gives them new desires, new affectations? Is this giving someone a different "want to?"

When we "arise in Christ a new creation" we have been born again with a new heart, for we have undergo the circumcision of Christ. So we have been regenerated or originated anew. Next God seals us in Christ by giving us the Spirit of Christ as a pledge to our inheritance. So by the numbers we are (1) put in Christ, baptized into His death where we undergo the circumcision of Christ, then (2) we arise in Christ a new creation, regenerated and born anew, and then (3) We are indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

Regeneration occurs when we are spiritually placed in Christ, because only together with Christ are we made alive. Calvinists claim folks are somehow "made alive, regenerated, quickened" apart from Christ. Pure fiction.

 

[convicted1]

When we "arise in Christ a new creation" we have been born again with a new heart, for we have undergo the circumcision of Christ. So we have been regenerated or originated anew. Next God seals us in Christ by giving us the Spirit of Christ as a pledge to our inheritance. So by the numbers we are (1) put in Christ, baptized into His death where we undergo the circumcision of Christ, then (2) we arise in Christ a new creation, regenerated and born anew, and then (3) We are indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

Regeneration occurs when we are spiritually placed in Christ, because only together with Christ are we made alive. Calvinists claim folks are somehow "made alive, regenerated, quickened" apart from Christ. Pure fiction.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Winman]

God does not hold little children or mentally handicapped persons accountable for what they cannot understand. Read Deut 1:39, Isa 7:16, Jon 4:11 for starters, there are many more.

And God doesn't just zap people and make them saved, you have to receive Jesus and trust on him to be saved. Read the book of John.

 

[convicted1]

God does not hold little children or mentally handicapped persons accountable for what they cannot understand. Read Deut 1:39, Isa 7:16, Jon 4:11 for starters, there are many more.

And God doesn't just zap people and make them saved, you have to receive Jesus and trust on him to be saved. Read the book of John.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


I'm channelling my "inner quantumfaith" today.....

 

[Winman]

When we "arise in Christ a new creation" we have been born again with a new heart, for we have undergo the circumcision of Christ. So we have been regenerated or originated anew. Next God seals us in Christ by giving us the Spirit of Christ as a pledge to our inheritance. So by the numbers we are (1) put in Christ, baptized into His death where we undergo the circumcision of Christ, then (2) we arise in Christ a new creation, regenerated and born anew, and then (3) We are indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

Regeneration occurs when we are spiritually placed in Christ, because only together with Christ are we made alive. Calvinists claim folks are somehow "made alive, regenerated, quickened" apart from Christ. Pure fiction.

Exactly. We had a poster here last week that said he was born again by the Spirit "LONG before" (his words) he ever heard the gospel or believed on Jesus.

This shows how ridiculous this doctrine of being regenerated before faith can be. In the past I have posted a quote from one of Sproul's associates saying a person can be regenerated for years, even decades before believeing on Christ. This would mean a person is born of God, and yet dead in all his sins for decades!

 

[MB]

May I add a bit on the thinking of "born."

It seems to me that John is helping Nico's understanding over come the years of imprinting that the law could save.

Christ was showing that a person in the natural state was "condemned already." Nico's schooling was in opposition to the teaching of Christ and he had to understand that a new creation was necessary.

Nico. didn't visualize a person had to be "born again" not of the same seed as the first which used corruptible seed that formed a creature in a sack of water, but of the implanting of incorruptible seed that formed a new creature.

The Word spoken of in John 3 is never corrupt. It's God's word. Nicodemus got the true Word straight from the real Word Him Self. You know Jesus is the Word, Even His name means Salvation.

I will always admire my parents because they knew the gospel. They made me memorize scripture simply because they knew if they could get the word inside of me they knew it would take hold. It wasn't just preached at me.
MB

 

[agedman]

When we "arise in Christ a new creation" we have been born again with a new heart, for we have undergo the circumcision of Christ. So we have been regenerated or originated anew. Next God seals us in Christ by giving us the Spirit of Christ as a pledge to our inheritance. So by the numbers we are (1) put in Christ, baptized into His death where we undergo the circumcision of Christ, then (2) we arise in Christ a new creation, regenerated and born anew, and then (3) We are indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

Regeneration occurs when we are spiritually placed in Christ, because only together with Christ are we made alive. Calvinists claim folks are somehow "made alive, regenerated, quickened" apart from Christ. Pure fiction.

First, "risen with Christ" as Paul states is a discussion of how one is to conduct their life AFTER salvation. In context, we are to live as the risen Christ. As the Baptist say (usually) at the point one is baptized, "raised to walk in the newness..."

Second, Certainly we are "born again with a new heart" there is no contradiction accept that some want that new to have completely replaced the old - NOT!!!!

We reside in our old nature and natural body. We are given a NEW nature and eventually a new body, too.

Third, one does become "indwelt by the Holy Spirit" AFTER salvation. The Holy Spirit is present at the "get go." AFTER salvation one is implored by the apostles to be filled.

You state that, "Regeneration occurs when we are spiritually placed in Christ, because only together with Christ are we made alive."

The most obvious question is WHO does "the placing in Christ."

Second, who said that "together with Christ we are made alive" because I haven't found Scriptural proof.

Paul discussion using the term "made alive" has to do with body resurrection - NOT salvation.

 

[jbh28]

It refutes IG because the same exact grace (the seed) was given to all 4 soils. The difference was in the hearer, not the grace given.

But still, they (the non-elect) rejected and the elect didn't. Irresistible grace teaches that all the elect will come. Though they may reject for a while, will end up coming. The non-elect will never come. They will always reject. So this fits perfectly with irresistible grace.

 

[convicted1]

But still, they (the non-elect) rejected and the elect didn't. Irresistible grace teaches that all the elect will come. Though they may reject for a while, will end up coming. The non-elect will never come. They will always reject. So this fits perfectly with irresistible grace.

Sure doesn't sound "irresistable" or "effectual" either way....


BTW, how's the precious cargo and wifey?

 

[jbh28]

Sure doesn't sound "irresistable" or "effectual" either way....

Irresistible is a terrible idea to name a doctrine. It gives the wrong impression on more than one area. It's only effectual to those that receive it. It wasn't effective to those that don't. It was sufficient, but it didn't have any effect, it was rejected. I'ts irresistible only in the sense that the elect will come. Where irresistible goes wrong is that the non elect always reject and the elect can reject up to a time. But I guess someone thought it was a "good" idea to put a doctrine in a flower. :flower:

BTW, how's the precious cargo and wifey?

Doing great. Had another appointment's last week and everything is going well. Thanks for asking and your prayers.

 

[agedman]

God does not hold little children or mentally handicapped persons accountable for what they cannot understand. Read Deut 1:39, Isa 7:16, Jon 4:11 for starters, there are many more.

And God doesn't just zap people and make them saved, you have to receive Jesus and trust on him to be saved. Read the book of John.

All are held accountable. The Scriptures say that clearly teach in Romans that ALL believers are to stand before Christ's judgment seat, and in Revelation that all stand before the very God in heaven.

You are wrong to post verses that do not support your contention. Here is the Scripture references you posted and the correct context.

Deut 1:39 is discussing the generation that is little then and grown up later will be the ones who pass over Jordan into the promised land.

Isa 7:16 gives a prophecy about the land being given to the heathens before the children grow up.

John 4:11 is the woman at the well and has nothing to do with what you desire it to mean.

You state there are "many more." Please, at least post ONE. You haven't posted any much less some verses that supports your statement - it is not supportable.