Irresistible Grace is a useless doctrine

[Derf B]

Hi @AustinC
You and I were having a conversation in another thread that closed before I could get back to answer your last post. It can be found here in context.
But here’s The part I wanted to focus on:

Second, was Job chosen by God or did Job choose God and therefore Job's choice caused God to declare Job blameless?

This is a pretty good question, and it made me want to answer it well, and to have time to think before answering. My answer is that I can’t tell. And neither can you, I expect. Which leads me to the conclusion that’s the title of this thread—that the doctrine of God’s choosing us irresistibly for salvation is a useless doctrine.

Here’s why. For any human being, how do you tell them they can be saved? Paul gives the succinct answer to the Philippian jailor, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. What should Paul have said different if God first had to change the person to make him able to accept Christ? Nothing. What should Paul have said if God did not have to change him so he could accept Christ? Nothing.

It’s the same with Job. We can’t tell whether Job chose God or God chose Job or even if both chose each other. All we can tell is that if a person is faithful, then God rewards his faithfulness. If a person believes, he is granted life.

So Paul’s statement, which emphasizes the responsibility of man, is the one that should be used; at least Paul thought so, despite the supposed irresistible nature of the call.

Thus, the doctrine of irresistible grace, being about salvation, is useless for salvation, in Paul’s opinion.

 

[Dave G]

@Derf B:
I realize that you are addressing @AustinC ,
But you did open a thread that everyone can read and potentially respond to, so I thought I'd offer a reply to your OP:

My answer is that I can’t tell. And neither can you, I expect. Which leads me to the conclusion that’s the title of this thread—that the doctrine of God’s choosing us irresistibly for salvation is a useless doctrine.

If one were speaking with those that had yet to believe, I would agree.
But since this is a forum for those who have already done so, I will state this:

Unless one takes into account just how important it is to the Lord for us, as the recipients of that grace, to know just how bad off we really were without it, then it would be useless.
Believers start out needing milk, and strong meat belongs to them who are of full age.
So, we start out hearing the preaching of the Gospel that we find in many places, and is summarized in 1 Corinthians 15:1-6.

Later in our studies and in preaching, we find the depths of God's grace for us that have believed on His Son...
The "how and why" we have believed.

 

[Dave G]

Thus, the doctrine of irresistible grace, being about salvation, is useless for salvation, in Paul’s opinion.

Paul was the one that the Lord primarily used to show believers the truth of it,
So to me, his opinion was in harmony with the Lord's direction to write what he wrote.

With it, the Lord shows us that He alone is responsible for lifting us out of the mire of our own sins and reconciling us as sinners to Himself.
This is what makes us heirs to a relationship with Him and His Son for the rest of eternity, my friend...
His purpose and grace, given to us in Christ before the world began ( 2 Timothy 1:9 ):

Romans ( 1 epistle ):
Passages: Romans 1, Romans 2, Romans 3, Romans 8:1-39, Romans 9, Romans 10:8-20, Romans 11.

Corinthians ( 2 epistles ):
Passages: 1 Corinthians 1:18-31, 1 Corinthians 2:6-16.

Ephesians ( 1 epistle ):
Passages: Ephesians 1:3-14, Ephesians 2:1-10.

Philippians (1 epistle ):
Passages: Philippians 1:29

Colossians ( 1 epistle ):
Passages: Colossians 1:21-22, Colossians 2:10-14, Colossians 3:12.

Thessalonians ( 2 epistles ):
Passages: 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 1 Thessalonians 2:12-13, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-17.

Timothy ( 2 epistles ):
Passages: 1 Timothy 1:13-16, 2 Timothy 1:8-9, 2 Timothy 2:3-4.

Titus ( 1 epistle ):
Passages: Titus 1:1-2, Titus 2:11-14, Titus 3:3-7.

As I see it, the doctrine of God's amazingly irresistible grace is a vital one to be declared;
We as believers in Jesus Christ need to be told that outside of His work within each and every one of us, we would have never truly believed His words that tell us of our desperate need of a Saviour.

Without the love of God for His people and His graciously working within them to reverse the damage that we have done to ourselves in our own hearts and minds, all of us would be in Hell...
And rightfully so.


May the Lord bless the eyes and ears of your understanding greatly, as you study His words in the coming days.

 

[AustinC]

Irresistible grace is tied to election and predestination. It defines what it means for God to be God.
We can be assured that God chose Job, gave Job faith and therefore declared Job blameless.
We also observe that God brought up Job and caused Satan to get upset with God and thus desire to sift Job. God, in His Sovereignty was the one who would either give Satan the ability to sift Job or not touch Job. God chose to give Satan the opportunity to sift Job. We read these interesting words in Job 42.

Job 42:11 Then came to him all his brothers and sisters and all who had known him before, and ate bread with him in his house. And they showed him sympathy and comforted him for all the evil that the Lord had brought upon him. And each of them gave him a piece of money and a ring of gold.

There is no biblical reason to deny the irresistible grace of God unto salvation.

 

[Van]

The Calvinist doctrine of "Irresistible Grace" whereby those hating God because they are fallen are compelled to "willingly" love God is fiction. This is shown by verse after verse. Matthew 23:13 teaches those "entering the kingdom" were prevented from going in by false teachers. First, since they were blocked, irresistible compulsion by God is no where to be found. Second, they did not "hate God" in their fallen state. Third, they were effectively seeking God because they were actually in the process of entering. Had it be a none genuine effort, they would have not been actually entering. Game, set and match.

Another ploy used to push false doctrine is to claim God's election for any purpose can be used as an example of election for salvation. God chose Judas to fulfill the "betrayer" prophecy, and that supposedly proves God chooses people before people choose God. Nonsense. And the greedy nature of Judas was well suited for the betrayer, thus a characteristic of the chosen appears to play a part in the election. In Romans 9 the younger was chosen over the older, so that the older would serve the younger. So once again, the characteristics of those chosen played a part in the election.

Now lets turn to the Old Testament book of Job, and see what it actually says:
1) What verse describes God choosing Job? The book starts out with Job being a servant of God.
2) What verse describes Job choosing God? The book starts out with Job being a servant of God.

 

[Revmitchell]

I understand and believe in election. I understand and believe in Gods sovereignty. God is sovereign whether grace is irresistible or When God gives man choice. When our reformed brethren talkbabout our understanding of mans choice but refuse to acknowledge that we understand that choice as God ordained they intentionally misrepresent our position.

 

[Derf B]

@Derf B:
I realize that you are addressing @AustinC ,
But you did open a thread that everyone can read and potentially respond to, so I thought I'd offer a reply to your OP:

If one were speaking with those that had yet to believe, I would agree.
But since this is a forum for those who have already done so, I will state this:

Unless one takes into account just how important it is to the Lord for us, as the recipients of that grace, to know just how bad off we really were without it, then it would be useless.
Believers start out needing milk, and strong meat belongs to them who are of full age.
So, we start out hearing the preaching of the Gospel that we find in many places, and is summarized in 1 Corinthians 15:1-6.

Later in our studies and in preaching, we find the depths of God's grace for us that have believed on His Son...
The "how and why" we have believed.

You are certainly welcome to join the conversation! And thanks for your other post, too, especially with the scripture proofs.

As I said to @AustinC, I wanted to consider well any posts you write and not just react (which many of us have a tendency to do). But that means my responses will be slow, and I will probably pick just a part to reply to.

Back to the scripture proofs, if you could also provide commentary on them as to why they apply (as narrowly as you can), it would help the conversation. I will try to do the same.


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[Derf B]

The Calvinist doctrine of "Irresistible Grace" whereby those hating God because they are fallen are compelled to "willingly" love God is fiction. This is shown by verse after verse. Matthew 23:13 teaches those "entering the kingdom" were prevented from going in by false teachers. First, since they were blocked, irresistible compulsion by God is no where to be found. Second, they did not "hate God" in their fallen state. Third, they were effectively seeking God because they were actually in the process of entering. Had it be a none genuine effort, they would have not been actually entering. Game, set and match.

Another ploy used to push false doctrine is to claim God's election for any purpose can be used as an example of election for salvation. God chose Judas to fulfill the "betrayer" prophecy, and that supposedly proves God chooses people before people choose God. Nonsense. And the greedy nature of Judas was well suited for the betrayer, thus a characteristic of the chosen appears to play a part in the election. In Romans 9 the younger was chosen over the older, so that the older would serve the younger. So once again, the characteristics of those chosen played a part in the election.

Now lets turn to the Old Testament book of Job, and see what it actually says:
1) What verse describes God choosing Job? The book starts out with Job being a servant of God.
2) What verse describes Job choosing God? The book starts out with Job being a servant of God.

Van, you’ve made some important statements, but you’ve given a fair amount of commentary without sufficient scripture proofs. I ask the same of you as I did of @Dave G: please do both commentary and scripture proofs as much as you can.

Thanks a bunch!


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[Derf B]

There is no biblical reason to deny the irresistible grace of God unto salvation.

I guess this is the place to show that! When I or someone else misuse, in your opinion, a scripture to deny irresistible grace, please explain your position on that scripture.

Thanks for jumping back in.

 

[Van]

Van, you’ve made some important statements, but you’ve given a fair amount of commentary without sufficient scripture proofs. I ask the same of you as I did of @Dave G: please do both commentary and scripture proofs as much as you can.

Thanks a bunch!

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No matter how much scripture I cite, some will say I did not provide support.
I did cite Matthew 23:13 and explained how it demonstrates total spiritual inability and irresistible grace are false doctrines. I did not see where something insufficient was cited.

I did cite Romans 9 and explained how God chose the younger to serve the older. I did not specifically cite Genesis 25:23 or Romans 9:12, but they describe the conditional election.

I did mention that Judas was chosen for the purpose of fulfilling the prophecy of the betrayer. John 6:70 and 71 discuss that Judas was chosen and known to be ungodly. Psalms 41:9 is the prophecy Judas was chosen to fulfill. See John 17:12.

 

[AustinC]

I guess this is the place to show that! When I or someone else misuse, in your opinion, a scripture to deny irresistible grace, please explain your position on that scripture.

Thanks for jumping back in.

So, show the biblical reason to deny irresistible grace.

 

[AustinC]

No matter how much scripture I cite, some will say I did not provide support.
I did cite Matthew 23:13 and explained how it demonstrates total spiritual inability and irresistible grace are false doctrines.

How does Matthew 23:13 disprove irresistible grace?
“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.

In observing the verse we see:
1) Woe to scribes and Pharisees.
2)Scribes and Pharisees are called hypocrites.
3) Scribes and Pharisees shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces.
4) Scribes and Pharisees don't enter.
5) Scribes and Pharisees don't allow others to enter.

Nowhere do I see irresistible grace being discussed or refuted. The context around the statement in verse 13 does not show any refutation either. Therefore, I disagree with your assertion.

 

[AustinC]

I understand and believe in election. I understand and believe in Gods sovereignty. God is sovereign whether grace is irresistible or When God gives man choice. When our reformed brethren talkbabout our understanding of mans choice but refuse to acknowledge that we understand that choice as God ordained they intentionally misrepresent our position.

Where does God ordain that a man make a choice and thereby cause God to redeem them?

 

[Revmitchell]

Where does God ordain that a man make a choice and thereby cause God to redeem them?

You are conflating two things unrelated and obsfucating my point.

 

[AustinC]

You are conflating two things unrelated and obsfucating my point.

No, I am not. But, you are not answering, which means you have no support in scripture.

 

[Revmitchell]

No, I am not. But, you are not answering, which means you have no support in scripture.

Youre a new fella around here. You dont know me nor do you know what I know. What I know about you is you asked me a question about something I never said i.e. post # 13 and then accused me of nit having scripture to back up what I never said.

I have dealt with this dishonest debate tactic by calvies for years on this board. When you get out of the cage get back to me.

 

[AustinC]

Youre a new fella around here. You dont know me nor do you know what I know. What I know about you is you asked me a question about something I never said i.e. post # 13 and then accused me of nit having scripture to back up what I never said.

I have dealt with this dishonest debate tactic by calvies for years on this board. When you get out of the cage get back to me.

Do you have scripture to support no irresistible grace? Yes or no?

 

[Revmitchell]

Do you have scripture to support no irresistible grace? Yes or no?

Are you asking me where in scripture it says God ordained man to make a choice?

 

[AustinC]

Are you asking me where in scripture it says God ordained man to make a choice?

Here's my question:
Do you have scripture to support no irresistible grace?

 

[Revmitchell]

Here's my question:
Do you have scripture to support no irresistible grace?

A negative cannot be proven. Its ridiculous to ask anyone to prove that which does not exist.