“God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, ‘What doest thou?’ Man’s will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so.” – A.W. Tozer, The Knowledge of the Holy: The Attributes of God
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Irresistible Grace is a useless doctrine
- Thread starter Derf B
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from the 1689 confession of faith
Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, He is pleased in His appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call,
1 by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ;
2 enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God;
3 taking away their heart of stone, and giving to them a heart of flesh;
4 renewing their wills, and by His almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ;
5 yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.
1 Rom. 8:30, 11:7; Eph. 1:10–11; 2 Thess. 2:13–14
2 Eph. 2:1–6
3 Acts 26:18; Eph. 1:17–18
4 Ezek. 36:26
5 Deut. 30:6; Ezek. 36:27; Eph. 1:19
6 Ps. 110:3; Cant. 1:4
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PARAGRAPH 2
6 This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature,
7 being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit;
8 he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
7 2 Tim. 1:9; Eph. 2:8
8 1 Cor. 2:14; Eph. 2:5; John 5:25
9 Eph. 1:19–20
Paragraph 3. Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit;10 who works when, and where, and how He pleases;11 so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
10 John 3:3, 5, 6
11 John 3:8
Paragraph 4. Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit,12 yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved:13 much less can men that do not receive the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.14
12 Matt. 22:14, 13:20,21; Heb 6:4,5
13 John 6:44,45,65; 1 John 2:24,25
14 Acts 4:12; John 4:22, 17:3
Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, He is pleased in His appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call,
1 by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ;
2 enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God;
3 taking away their heart of stone, and giving to them a heart of flesh;
4 renewing their wills, and by His almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ;
5 yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.
1 Rom. 8:30, 11:7; Eph. 1:10–11; 2 Thess. 2:13–14
2 Eph. 2:1–6
3 Acts 26:18; Eph. 1:17–18
4 Ezek. 36:26
5 Deut. 30:6; Ezek. 36:27; Eph. 1:19
6 Ps. 110:3; Cant. 1:4
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PARAGRAPH 2
6 This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature,
7 being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit;
8 he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
7 2 Tim. 1:9; Eph. 2:8
8 1 Cor. 2:14; Eph. 2:5; John 5:25
9 Eph. 1:19–20
Paragraph 3. Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit;10 who works when, and where, and how He pleases;11 so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
10 John 3:3, 5, 6
11 John 3:8
Paragraph 4. Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit,12 yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved:13 much less can men that do not receive the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.14
12 Matt. 22:14, 13:20,21; Heb 6:4,5
13 John 6:44,45,65; 1 John 2:24,25
14 Acts 4:12; John 4:22, 17:3
So, you have no scripture that shows irresistible grace is false. Got it.
That’s a decent recapitulation of the doctrine, along with the understanding of the accompanying doctrine of total depravity, but hardly a defense of either, nor does it answer to the necessity of irresistible grace.
It just makes you feel good about your position in Christ. Who are you going to declare it to? Believers? They would agree because they have no other choice. Unbelievers? They would not understand it. There’s no one to proclaim that doctrine to that would do them any good.
It’s therefore a useless doctrine.
Can you tell us either why that description is helpful or why it is correct? Just pasting the confession with scripture proofs isn’t really helping anyone to understand.
Tautologies are like that.
Yes.
The confession as an instrument is to be read through slowly.
It is designed to inform the reader of a few places in scripture that indicate the teaching found in all the books.
Read each thought expressed and match the scriptures offered.
They tried to make it as well worded as possible to offer the things most surely believed among us.
Once it is framed out,each part can be examined and when used in a local church can let new members know that for the most part they can expect to hear these things taught there.
If you have an objection you can quote what it says,then identify why you think it is not correct. Most times it is discovered that a careless reading has taken place.
Without the effectual call noone can be saved
So, you have nothing, other than your opinion. Got it.
No where in scripture is God's grace ever said to be irresistible. That is why it's useless doctrine.
MB
What do you think makes it effectual? When Paul says with standers are many.
1Co 16:9 for a door to me hath been opened—great and effectual—and withstanders are many. YLT
MB
While I support the statement in my OP, I disagree with your reasoning, MB. The reason it's a useless doctrine is that it doesn't do anything for anyone.
What you gave was the reason why it isn't true, which is ok to bring up here, but there have already been several posts with scriptures purporting to show that it IS true, so you should explain why those do NOT show Irresistible Grace is true.
The problem is really that you have nothing to show Irresistible grace is a true doctrine. It's not in scripture
It's just in your imaginationMB
I can, but I already gave my objection to the doctrine in the OP. If you have a problem with that, you can quote what the bible says, then identify why you think I'm not correct.
(That's how conversations are supposed to go, instead of throwing a bunch of new stuff out and asking someone to prove it wrong somewhere.)
This is off topic. Unless you want to show how effectual calling is related to irresistible grace, please start a different thread.
(Hint: "TULIP" is not enough of an answer.)
Thanks.
Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. Please also show why it's relevant to this particular discussion (see OP again, if you need to).
Thanks
A better question would be, “When does God decide mankind needs saving—before or after they exist?
Thanks for sharing that, @Revmitchell. would you please explain how that applies to irresistible grace? I think I see it, but explain just in case.
Thanks
From the comments offered,including the OP. I did not think you and mb understood the actual teaching as it is offered.
If you are going to comment on it, it helps if you actually use the actual teaching.
Did you see where any of the explanation was addressed? Neither did I
Matthew 23:13 teaches those "entering the kingdom" were prevented from going in by false teachers. First, since they were blocked, irresistible compulsion by God is no where to be found. Second, they did not "hate God" in their fallen state. Third, they were effectively seeking God because they were actually in the process of entering. Had it be a non-genuine effort, they would have not been actually entering.
Then of course, no effort was made to to answer the questions pertaining to the thread topic:
1) What verse describes God choosing Job? The book starts out with Job being a servant of God.
2) What verse describes Job choosing God? The book starts out with Job being a servant of God.
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