Irresistible Grace is a useless doctrine

[MB]

While I support the statement in my OP, I disagree with your reasoning, MB. The reason it's a useless doctrine is that it doesn't do anything for anyone.

What you gave was the reason why it isn't true, which is ok to bring up here, but there have already been several posts with scriptures purporting to show that it IS true, so you should explain why those do NOT show Irresistible Grace is true.

The reason it doesn't do anything for any one is because it doesn't exist. There simply is no such thing. Of course they show scriptures but none prove irresistible grace.
The anti Christian world has rejected Christ and is proof of irresistible grace being nonexistent The fact they do not come to the light shows there resistance.
MB

 

[Iconoclast]

The reason it doesn't do anything for any one is because it doesn't exist. There simply is no such thing. Of course they show scriptures but none prove irresistible grace.
The anti Christian world has rejected Christ and is proof of irresistible grace being nonexistent The fact they do not come to the light shows there resistance.
MB

Why are you posting on this when you do not know the teaching?
Resistance has nothing to do with this topic.
If you understood it you would not bring up the resistance of unsaved persons.

 

[AustinC]

No where in scripture is God's grace ever said to be irresistible. That is why it's useless doctrine.
MB

Is God Sovereign over man? If so, man cannot resist God.

 

[AustinC]

The problem is really that you have nothing to show Irresistible grace is a true doctrine. It's not in scriptureIt's just in your imagination
MB

Is God Sovereign over man? If so, then man cannot resist God.

 

[AustinC]

A better question would be, “When does God decide mankind needs saving—before or after they exist?

Thanks for sharing that, @Revmitchell. would you please explain how that applies to irresistible grace? I think I see it, but explain just in case.

Thanks

No, the better question is:
Is God Sovereign?

 

[AustinC]

Did you see where any of the explanation was addressed? Neither did I
Matthew 23:13 teaches those "entering the kingdom" were prevented from going in by false teachers. First, since they were blocked, irresistible compulsion by God is no where to be found. Second, they did not "hate God" in their fallen state. Third, they were effectively seeking God because they were actually in the process of entering. Had it be a non-genuine effort, they would have not been actually entering.

Then of course, no effort was made to to answer the questions pertaining to the thread topic:

1) What verse describes God choosing Job? The book starts out with Job being a servant of God.
2) What verse describes Job choosing God? The book starts out with Job being a servant of God.

Is God Sovereign?
If not, then man can resist God's authority.
If yes, then man cannot resist God's authority.

Van, is God Sovereign?

 

[Revmitchell]

A better question would be, “When does God decide mankind needs saving—before or after they exist?

Thanks for sharing that, @Revmitchell. would you please explain how that applies to irresistible grace? I think I see it, but explain just in case.

Thanks

Ill be posting more on this later but it is the exact opposite of irresistable grace. I will get to the biblical position of Gods design for mans choice tonight.

My advice is avoid cage stagers fresh out of the James White debate school. Wrestling with pigs only gets you dirty.

 

[Van]

Is God Sovereign?
If not, then man can resist God's authority.
If yes, then man cannot resist God's authority.
Van, is God Sovereign?

Calvinists redefine words so they mean one thing to others, i.e. what a dictionary would say, and something entirely different to a Calvinist with gnostic knowledge.

Can God resist God's "authority?" What do Calvinists mean by authority?

All "authority" has been given to Christ so does that mean we cannot choose to sin?

Can our Sovereign God allow us to sin? Of course since we sin and God is sovereign.

Pay no attention to all these efforts at obfuscation, God can choose to put us into Christ or not. Does that mean we have resisted God's almighty power to do as He pleases? Of course not. The Calvinist doctrine of irresistible grace has been shown with overwhelming evidence to be false doctrine. We are chosen and saved through or on the basis of faith, therefore our faith existed before our election or salvation. But that faith was a worthless as a filthy rag until God chose to credit it as righteousness. Therefore even though we will willing to be saved, our salvation did not depend on our effort but on God alone. Romans 9:16.

 

[MB]

Is God Sovereign over man? If so, then man cannot resist God.

God is all powerful there is no doubt which is why Sovereign is not used in scripture. He is above being sovereign which is how we all have a choice in Salvation. He does not loose anything by being all Powerful. You use the word Sovereign to manipulate the scriptures to make it say something that is not true. That man is unable to go against the will of God. Man doesn't come to the light because his deeds are evil. That is resisting the will of God. The Jews resisted God by not accepting Christ as there messiah. Jonah resisted God when he would not go to Nineveh. Cane resisted God when he presented the wrong sacrifice. There are many examples in scripture that proves man does have a choice. This is why Sovereign is not a description.of God
MB

 

[MB]

Why are you posting on this when you do not know the teaching?
Resistance has nothing to do with this topic.
If you understood it you would not bring up the resistance of unsaved persons.

First of all I don't care whether you like it or not. Calvinist use the word Sovereign to describe God as a unrelenting tyrant who makes all choices. The word Sovereign is not found in scripture. Sovereign is not a biblical description of God.
MB

 

[Iconoclast]

First of all I don't care whether you like it or not. Calvinist use the word Sovereign to describe God as a unrelenting tyrant who makes all choices. The word Sovereign is not found in scripture. Sovereign is not a biblical description of God.
MB

I did not comment on if I liked it or not.
You do not seem to want biblical interaction.
What does the word Sovereign mean?
Are you suggesting God is not Sovereign?
Clarify what you are offering as you seem intent on defining everything.
What do these terms mean in your world?
Could you give a quote of a Calvinist saying God is an unrelenting tyrant?
I have never seen that.

 

[MB]

I did not comment on if I liked it or not.
You do not seem to want biblical interaction.
What does the word Sovereign mean?
Are you suggesting God is not Sovereign?
Clarify what you are offering as you seem intent on defining everything.
What do these terms mean in your world?
Could you give a quote of a Calvinist saying God is an unrelenting tyrant?
I have never seen that.

The word Sovereign is not in scripture so why do you use it?
MB

 

[Iconoclast]

The word Sovereign is not in scripture so why do you use it?
MB

What does that word mean?
How is that word understood when it is used of anyone?
Let Me understand what exactly you mean by that word.

 

[Derf B]

Ill be posting more on this later but it is the exact opposite of irresistable grace. I will get to the biblical position of Gods design for mans choice tonight.

My advice is avoid cage stagers fresh out of the James White debate school. Wrestling with pigs only gets you dirty.

I look forward to the post later!

Dirty, yes, but so does being in the world, yet we are called to do it. If Irresistible grace is useless, as I propose, then it isn't something biblical writers would spend time on. That would make it an unbiblical, or worldly, doctrine. So let's get a little dirty and then wash each others' feet together.

 

[tyndale1946]

To the OP you better pray that Irresistible Grace is the only doctrine!... Did you birth yourself or did God birth you by his Holy Spirit?... Did you change your own cold and stony heart or did God change it again by his Holy Spirit?... Did you change your own will or did God change it and make it his again by his Holy Spirit?... God is always first in his work according to the person of the Holy Spirit... God changed you because he sought you and he bought, you, you belonged to him before, you even thought about him...

Oh and btw... He died for you too, in the person of his Son Jesus Christ, and not only died for you but rose again, because he purchased your worthless wretched hide and paid the price you could NEVER pay and stood where YOU could NEVER stand... So you could be with him... He earned your Salvation for you, YOU didn't earn your own!... If not for the Irresistible Grace of the three and one Godhead you'll NEVER see Heaven... God the Father GAVE YOU!... God The Son, in the person of Jesus Christ SAVED YOU... And God the Holy Spirit, tells YOU who did the Saving... Which NONE of us on here deserved... And brother you can take that to the bank... Brother Glen

 

[AustinC]

Calvinists redefine words so they mean one thing to others, i.e. what a dictionary would say, and something entirely different to a Calvinist with gnostic knowledge.

Can God resist God's "authority?" What do Calvinists mean by authority?

All "authority" has been given to Christ so does that mean we cannot choose to sin?

Can our Sovereign God allow us to sin? Of course since we sin and God is sovereign.

Pay no attention to all these efforts at obfuscation, God can choose to put us into Christ or not. Does that mean we have resisted God's almighty power to do as He pleases? Of course not. The Calvinist doctrine of irresistible grace has been shown with overwhelming evidence to be false doctrine. We are chosen and saved through or on the basis of faith, therefore our faith existed before our election or salvation. But that faith was a worthless as a filthy rag until God chose to credit it as righteousness. Therefore even though we will willing to be saved, our salvation did not depend on our effort but on God alone. Romans 9:16.

This is not complicated.
Is God the ruler over all creation? Can the created resist and thwart the will of the all-powerful Creator?
That is what being Sovereign means. Having all power, with everything being subject to the all-powerful authority.
So...can the created resist the Creator when the Creator wills something to be so?

My answer is...no.

Is your answer no...or yes?

 

[Derf B]

To the OP you better pray that Irresistible Grace is the only doctrine!... Did you birth yourself or did God birth you by his Holy Spirit?... Did you change your own cold and stony heart or did God change it again by his Holy Spirit?... Did you change your own will or did God change it and make it his again by his Holy Spirit?... God is always first in his work according to the person of the Holy Spirit... God changed you because he sought you and he bought, you, you belonged to him before, you even thought about him...

Oh and btw... He died for you too, in the person of his Son Jesus Christ, and not only died for you but rose again, because he purchased your worthless wretched hide and paid the price you could NEVER pay and stood where could NEVER stand... So you could be with him... He earned your Salvation for you, YOU didn't earn your own!... If not for the Irresistible Grace of the three and one Godhead you'll NEVER see Heaven... God the Father GAVE YOU!... God The Son, in the person of Jesus Christ SAVED YOU... And God the Holy Spirit, tells YOU who did the Saving... Which NONE of us on here deserved... And brother you can take that to the bank... Brother Glen

Thank you, Bro Glen!
I'm concerned, though, that the grace is an extra part of the salvation, not included in the gospel itself (which most would agree with, I think), but if it is true, then God's general call also becomes a specific call made in general terms, as if all people may accept, but not all can. Then God has to provide something extra above and beyond His Son's death, which then dilutes the stated gospel.

And, being irresistible, it makes the other gospel unnecessary, because who can resist His call? One of the two is useless. Are you suggesting the gospel that Jesus saves by His death and resurrection is the useless one?

 

[MB]

What does that word mean?
How is that word understood when it is used of anyone?
Let Me understand what exactly you mean by that word.

You first. Why use the word sovereign to describe God when it is not a biblical word? God does not use the word to describe Him Self
MB

 

[Iconoclast]

You first. Why use the word sovereign to describe God when it is not a biblical word? God does not use the word to describe Him Self
MB

Because I and millions of others know what the word means?

 

[MB]

This is not complicated.
Is God the ruler over all creation? Can the created resist and thwart the will of the all-powerful Creator?
That is what being Sovereign means. Having all power, with everything being subject to the all-powerful authority.
So...can the created resist the Creator when the Creator wills something to be so?

My answer is...no.

Is your answer no...or yes?

To say God does not allow men to resist Him is not true. The Jews resisted Him. Jonah did as well So did Cain. Prove they didn't resist.
scripture please!
MB