Irresistible Grace is a useless doctrine

[Derf B]

This is not complicated.
Is God the ruler over all creation? Can the created resist and thwart the will of the all-powerful Creator?
That is what being Sovereign means. Having all power, with everything being subject to the all-powerful authority.
So...can the created resist the Creator when the Creator wills something to be so?

My answer is...no.

Is your answer no...or yes?

Maybe it's not complicated, but not what you make it out to be.
If God is both all-wise and all-powerful, can He not both remain sovereign and allow His subjects to do something besides what He wills?

You might go view my previous thread on "What is "Sovereignty"?", where it was discussed in some detail.

"can the created resist the Creator when the Creator wills something to be so?" No. But that's begging the question. It assumes that irresistible grace is affirmed and argues from there. Instead, consider asking yourself your own question without assuming IG.

 

[AustinC]

God is all powerful there is no doubt which is why Sovereign is not used in scripture. He is above being sovereign which is how we all have a choice in Salvation. He does not loose anything by being all Powerful. You use the word Sovereign to manipulate the scriptures to make it say something that is not true. That man is unable to go against the will of God. Man doesn't come to the light because his deeds are evil. That is resisting the will of God. The Jews resisted God by not accepting Christ as there messiah. Jonah resisted God when he would not go to Nineveh. Cane resisted God when he presented the wrong sacrifice. There are many examples in scripture that proves man does have a choice. This is why Sovereign is not a description.of God
MB

Sovereign is translated as such in many places. You are attempting to weasel out from under God's Sovereignty. I have no idea why you want God to be less than who He is.

 

[MB]

Because I and millions of others know what the word means?

I do too! I also know it isn't in scripture that God insist that His will be done by everyone. From the beginning God has always been resisted. Adam and Eve were the first to resist God. It is not God's will that men sin and every sinner resist God's will. They have to in order to sin. Sin is never God's will other wise we would have an imperfect God. Calvinist insist God created sin but this is not true. The lack of men loving God created sin.
God being all powerful allows men to have choices and still looses no power. Men cannot be made to Love god with out the ability to choose to do so. Love cannot exist with out the choice to do so.
MB

 

[AustinC]

First of all I don't care whether you like it or not. Calvinist use the word Sovereign to describe God as a unrelenting tyrant who makes all choices. The word Sovereign is not found in scripture. Sovereign is not a biblical description of God.
MB

Nope, you think such, but that is not the case. Instead, you want God to be your genie who does whatever you decide.

 

[AustinC]

The word Sovereign is not in scripture so why do you use it?
MB

Because it's there. Why do you deny it?

 

[MB]

Nope, you think such, but that is not the case. Instead, you want God to be your genie who does whatever you decide.

Not true at all If God does anything it's because He wants to. Your the one with the genie god who saved you with out faith. When it is God's word that we are saved by faith. This you deny and claim you are saved so you can believe.
MB

 

[agedman]

I think that some

Maybe it's not complicated, but not what you make it out to be.
If God is both all-wise and all-powerful, can He not both remain sovereign and allow His subjects to do something besides what He wills?

You might go view my previous thread on "What is "Sovereignty"?", where it was discussed in some detail.

"can the created resist the Creator when the Creator wills something to be so?" No. But that's begging the question. It assumes that irresistible grace is affirmed and argues from there. Instead, consider asking yourself your own question without assuming IG.

I actually think that some believe that God controls or he has no authority.

That isn’t what is presented in Scripture.

Humankind may certainly choose to do right, but they have no authority to choose to be righteous.

God states a principle Paul shared about some believers “now sleep.” He allows folks to go this far and no more.

However when it comes to salvation, The Scriptures state, “I will have mercy (therefore grace) on whom I will have mercy...”

Believers did not choose Him prior to Him first choosing them
“All my Father gives me...”
“Other sheep have I ...”
“The Spirit is like the wind no one ...”

The “unmerited favor of God” (Grace) is intricate to bring saving faith. It is not “of ourselves.” The “saving faith” is the gift of God, not of human effort so that “no one can boast. Therefore irresistible grace in salvation.

However, some mix disobedience (Jonah, Cain, ...) as indicators irresistible grace. Is not found.

James addresses faith and working, so does Paul.

 

[MB]

Because it's there. Why do you deny it?

The word Sovereign is not in scripture. If you can find it in the YLT Show me.
MB

 

[Iconoclast]

The word Sovereign is not in scripture. If you can find it in the YLT Show me.
MB

Could you now answer post 51.

 

[MB]

I think that some

I actually think that some believe that God controls or he has no authority.

That isn’t what is presented in Scripture.

Humankind may certainly choose to do right, but they have no authority to choose to be righteous.

God states a principle Paul shared about some believers “now sleep.” He allows folks to go this far and no more.

However when it comes to salvation, The Scriptures state, “I will have mercy (therefore grace) on whom I will have mercy...”

Believers did not choose Him prior to Him first choosing them
“All my Father gives me...”
“Other sheep have I ...”
“The Spirit is like the wind no one ...”

The “unmerited favor of God” (Grace) is intricate to bring saving faith. It is not “of ourselves.” The “saving faith” is the gift of God, not of human effort so that “no one can boast. Therefore irresistible grace in salvation.

However, some mix disobedience (Jonah, Cain, ...) as indicators irresistible grace. Is not found.

James addresses faith and working, so does Paul.

Paul also said;
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. It does not mention any special kind of faith but those who believe. There own faith Every man has been dealt a measure of faith. If the man receives the Word His faith will increase. The gift is Salvation.
MB

 

[Derf B]

You first. Why use the word sovereign to describe God when it is not a biblical word? God does not use the word to describe Him Self
MB

Can you explain why you don't like the use of the word "sovereign" to describe God? Does the concept of sovereignty appear in scripture? I think it does, but not in the same way, perhaps, as the more reformed folks.

 

[Derf B]

I do too! I also know it isn't in scripture that God insist that His will be done by everyone. From the beginning God has always been resisted. Adam and Eve were the first to resist God. It is not God's will that men sin and every sinner resist God's will. They have to in order to sin. Sin is never God's will other wise we would have an imperfect God. Calvinist insist God created sin but this is not true. The lack of men loving God created sin.
God being all powerful allows men to have choices and still looses no power. Men cannot be made to Love god with out the ability to choose to do so. Love cannot exist with out the choice to do so.
MB

I don't think I agree with this. God DOES lose power when He creates a being that can choose good or evil, which He did. He loses power over that person's choices.

However, the word "sovereign" allows for disobedience, though it follows with justice against the disobedience.

 

[MB]

Could you now answer post 51.

I mean God is not sovereign in that every thought of man is controlled by Him. If God were Sovereign then only what God willed would happen according to yours and other Calvinist definition of it. By your definition God wills every sin every commuted. Which is not true. Obviously if God were in complete control there would be no sin.

In case you haven't noticed Satan is in control of many in the world and they're in his control because they love sin
MB.

 

[Derf B]

I think that some

I actually think that some believe that God controls or he has no authority.

That isn’t what is presented in Scripture.

Humankind may certainly choose to do right, but they have no authority to choose to be righteous.

Authority? Aren't we given authority to be righteous when God tells us to be righteous, which He does constantly in the bible?

We might not have the ability, but I lean toward that inability only affecting the avoidance of death. [Rom 5:6 NET] 6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

However when it comes to salvation, The Scriptures state, “I will have mercy (therefore grace) on whom I will have mercy...”

Believers did not choose Him prior to Him first choosing them
“All my Father gives me...”
“Other sheep have I ...”
“The Spirit is like the wind no one ...”

The “unmerited favor of God” (Grace) is intricate to bring saving faith. It is not “of ourselves.” The “saving faith” is the gift of God, not of human effort so that “no one can boast. Therefore irresistible grace in salvation.

However, some mix disobedience (Jonah, Cain, ...) as indicators irresistible grace. Is not found.

James addresses faith and working, so does Paul.

The unmerited favor is shown in the incarnation and death of Christ. Do we need MORE unmerited favor than that? Salvation is grace. But something about it is not irresistible, obviously.

And that promise of the coming grace (incarnation of Christ, at least, and bruising the serpent's head, which refers to the loss of his power to murder, from Gen 3:15) is given to all men that proceeded from Adam. Why then, when the promise was to all of Adam's race, would the grace then be withheld from some of them, except by their refusal to partake of it?

 

[agedman]

Paul also said;
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. It does not mention any special kind of faith but those who believe. There own faith Every man has been dealt a measure of faith. If the man receives the Word His faith will increase. The gift is Salvation.
MB

The word “pistils, pisteuo” is translated belief and faith.

Here is a New Testament lexicon to help your thinking.
Pistis Meaning in Bible - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

 

[agedman]

Authority? Aren't we given authority to be righteous when God tells us to be righteous, which He does constantly in the bible?

We might not have the ability, but I lean toward that inability only affecting the avoidance of death. [Rom 5:6 NET] 6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

The unmerited favor is shown in the incarnation and death of Christ. Do we need MORE unmerited favor than that? Salvation is grace. But something about it is not irresistible, obviously.

And that promise of the coming grace (incarnation of Christ, at least, and bruising the serpent's head, which refers to the loss of his power to murder, from Gen 3:15) is given to all men that proceeded from Adam. Why then, when the promise was to all of Adam's race, would the grace then be withheld from some of them, except by their refusal to partake of it?

I will respond in reverse order.

Salvation is not grace, rather the faith and accompanying salvation is because of the unmerited favor (definition of grace) of God.

At what point does the thing unclean make of itself clean?

The ungodly cannot of themselves initiate nor come to Christ in belief. That s consistent in ALL schemes that even remotely might be Biblical. Whether one considers “prevenient/preceding” grace or irresistible grace, they both involve God acting first and decisively.


Lastly, God tells believers to be “holy.” Holy means sanctified - set apart for specific work of God.

 

[AustinC]

Not true at all If God does anything it's because He wants to. Your the one with the genie god who saved you with out faith. When it is God's word that we are saved by faith. This you deny and claim you are saved so you can believe.
MB

God does what He wills. You are correct.
Do you have the power to successfully oppose what God wills?

You imagine that God created all humans with faith that the humans must activate by their intelligent choice. But, the Bible never says such a thing.
No one has faith, until God gives them faith. This is a fact taught in the Bible that you reject.

 

[AustinC]

The word Sovereign is not in scripture. If you can find it in the YLT Show me.
MB

Why do I care about the YLT? That may be your preferred translation. You may therefore say that the YLT translators do not translate LORD as Sovereign Lord, but other translators do translate it as Sovereign Lord.
MB, you still don't explain why you hate the truth that God is in absolutely authority over every aspect of His creation. Why do you despise this truth?

 

[AustinC]

Paul also said;
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. It does not mention any special kind of faith but those who believe. There own faith Every man has been dealt a measure of faith. If the man receives the Word His faith will increase. The gift is Salvation.
MB

The entire chapter is applicable to the chosen and elect of God who believe. Read the entire chapter, MB, not once does God say that pagans have been created with faith.

Romans 4:1-25 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.” Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

 

[tyndale1946]

Thank you, Bro Glen!
I'm concerned, though, that the grace is an extra part of the salvation, not included in the gospel itself (which most would agree with, I think), but if it is true, then God's general call also becomes a specific call made in general terms, as if all people may accept, but not all can. Then God has to provide something extra above and beyond His Son's death, which then dilutes the stated gospel.

And, being irresistible, it makes the other gospel unnecessary, because who can resist His call? One of the two is useless. Are you suggesting the gospel that Jesus saves by His death and resurrection is the useless one?

The Gospel call does not impart eternal life but it tells you who did... Don't think you can resist his grace either, you wouldn't be here if you could... I'm not going to stay here and argue about it, I've heard it all before, didn't believe it then and don't believe it now... With that said, I shall bow out... Brother Glen

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.