Irresistible Grace is a useless doctrine

[MB]

The entire chapter is applicable to the chosen and elect of God who believe. Read the entire chapter, MB, not once does God say that pagans have been created with faith.

Romans 4:1-25 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.” Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

Why not read the rest of Romans?
Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

 

[MB]

God does what He wills. You are correct.
Do you have the power to successfully oppose what God wills?

You imagine that God created all humans with faith that the humans must activate by their intelligent choice. But, the Bible never says such a thing.
No one has faith, until God gives them faith. This is a fact taught in the Bible that you reject.

Actually what I reject is you.
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
By the way I believe in Jesus Christ and I first trusted in Him by my choice.
MB
MB

 

[MB]

Why do I care about the YLT? That may be your preferred translation. You may therefore say that the YLT translators do not translate LORD as Sovereign Lord, but other translators do translate it as Sovereign Lord.
MB, you still don't explain why you hate the truth that God is in absolutely authority over every aspect of His creation. Why do you despise this truth?

I do not dispise What God hath said I desies whay you claim as truth.
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Deu 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

You said man has no freewill
Ezr 7:13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.

MB

 

[AustinC]

Why not read the rest of Romans?
Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

MB, you seem to think Paul is writing to pagans. Why is that? If you actually took the time to read the letter, you would know Paul is writing to the elect. Therefore, every man is every believer. Unfortunately, you make the entire Bible into a universalist manifesto, yet you can't admit you teach universalism. All I ask is for you to be consistent as a universalist.

 

[AustinC]

Actually what I reject is you.
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
By the way I believe in Jesus Christ and I first trusted in Him by my choice.
MB
MB

You imagine you chose God and thus you puff yourself up.

 

[AustinC]

I do not dispise What God hath said I desies whay you claim as truth.
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Deu 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

You said man has no freewill
Ezr 7:13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.

MB

Was God addressing the chosen in Deuteronomy or was he writing to pagans who chose God?

 

[Derf B]

The Bible calls God all mighty, all powerful,benevolent but, never "Sovereign".
Soveregin definition.websters dictionary
1. Supreme in power; possessing supreme dominion; as a sovereign ruler of the universe.
2. Supreme; superior to all others; chief. God is the sovereign good of all who love and obey him.
3. Supremely efficacious; superior to all others; predominant; effectual; as a sovereign remedy.
1. Supreme in power; possessing supreme dominion; as a sovereign ruler of the universe.
2. Supreme; superior to all others; chief. God is the sovereign good of all who love and obey him.
3. Supremely efficacious; superior to all others; predominant; effectual; as a sovereign remedy.

If God only loves those who Love Him then no man would love God. And Christ would not have died for the world He first loved us and we first trusted in Him.
If God were efficious Then why is it, not everyone is saved.? isn;t it His will we all come to Him?
Is it God's will to only save a few self elect from before the foundation?
If God is predominate then His will is what happens. we have no choice in Salvation
In effect this definition only makes God a dictator a tyrant a puppeteer a non benevolent being.

I'm not saying God can't do any of these things. God loves the world not because man dominated Him in to it but because He is free to love man as he does. So must man be free to Love God because with out the choice to do so there can be no genuine love on man's part..It's rather like forcing some one to love you It's impossible.
Man has a choice God has given it to us.
Personally I find Calvinism to be a heretical doctrine of man They twist scripture worse than a Jehovah's Witness
MB

I don’t see anything in those definitions that would be wrong to apply to God. Neither do I see anything in them that suggests God only loved those who loved Him. “For while we were yet sinners (did not love God), Christ died for us.”

I understand your aversion to Calvinism, but you’ll do better against it if you don’t let them get under your skin, like JWs are wont to do. And don’t be afraid to reclaim words Calvinists have redefined.

 

[Derf B]

Was God addressing the chosen in Deuteronomy or was he writing to pagans who chose God?

He was definitely writing to His chosen people—who could obviously resist His grace! Thanks for pointing that out!

 

[AustinC]

He was definitely writing to His chosen people—who could obviously resist His grace! Thanks for pointing that out!

Was all Israel, Israel? Thanks for following scripture.

 

[Derf B]

God does what He wills. You are correct.
Do you have the power to successfully oppose what God wills?

Yes, I do. God’s will is that I don’t commit adultery, including even looking with list on a woman. I have lusted, and I expect I could do it again, if I don’t exercise self control (according to Paul). So if I can lust, and if I can’t oppose God’s will, then God must want me to lust, which divides His kingdom against itself. Is that what you are arguing for? A two-faced god?

 

[Derf B]

Was all Israel, Israel? Thanks for following scripture.

Now you’re suggesting Moses was addressing his words to someone who wasn’t part of God’s people. If the words were addressed to “Israel”, then Israel must have been able to oppose God’s will.

You’ve given yourself a lose-lose proposition.

 

[Marooncat79]

Is God Sovereign over man? If so, man cannot resist God.

You mean like in Daniel where God makes a King eat grass and live like an animal?

 

[Marooncat79]

This is off topic. Unless you want to show how effectual calling is related to irresistible grace, please start a different thread.

(Hint: "TULIP" is not enough of an answer.)

Thanks.

Hahaha

What do you say to that guys

 

[Dave G]

I have dealt with this dishonest debate tactic by calvies for years on this board. When you get out of the cage get back to me.

My advice is avoid cage stagers fresh out of the James White debate school. Wrestling with pigs only gets you dirty.

Mark,

From your demeanor and tone in these posts, it appears that you enjoy not only remanding people to a position lower than your level of maturity, but also your level of interaction.
Perhaps I'm mistaken and you only come off this way when speaking with "Calvinists", but to me, you still can't let go of the derogatory usage of the word, "calvie" to describe those that hold to the "TULIP" summary in their doctrines.

I would ask that you put aside the rhetoric and do what you wish others would do to you...
Treat them with respect.

I also cannot speak for others here who hold to similar views as my own,
but I can say that, regardless of our disagreements, I find that have no trouble doing the same for you.

 

[Marooncat79]

Why not read the rest of Romans?
Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

II Thess 3:2 - all do not have faith

 

[Dave G]

You imagine you chose God and thus you puff yourself up.

Austin...
Let's not make accusations where they may not be warranted.


To me, he just doesn't understand how God overcomes our willful and obstinate nature and has to give the objects of His grace the new birth in order to get any of us to seek Him and to listen to His words.

 

[Revmitchell]

I look forward to the post later!

There are no single verses to use as proof texts like calvies like to use. What we do know is there is not a single verse that suggests that grace is irresistible. We first need to look at how man is able to understand the gospel (Romans 10:17; 2 Timothy 3:15). See calvies believe that one must first be saved in order to be saved. Of course they like to think that regeneration and salvation are not one and the same but they, in fact, are. See we use the same terminology but have different meanings. They have redefined regeneration, God's Sovereignty, and a few other terms. They also do not believe in the sufficiency of scripture in salvation (Hebrews 4:12). They believe, without any scriptural backing, that regeneration occurs as an extra measure of grace and an extra working of the Holy Spirit.

Scripture teaches that the word of God is sufficient in salvation (Hebrews 4:12) and that it is all that is needed for the salvation of man 2 Timothy 3:15). Scripture teaches that the word of God is the work of the HG and that it takes no further act on His part for man to be saved (2 Timothy 3:15-16). Further, scripture teaches that God is sovereign when man makes a choice as He has designed (decreed)(John 1:12). It is not necessary for God to be in complete control or effective in salvation for God to be sovereign in the salvation of man. The calvie understanding of the sovereignty of God is an errant view and in no way supported by scripture.

 

[Derf B]

Mark,

From your demeanor and tone in these posts, it appears that you enjoy not only remanding people to a position lower than your level of maturity, but also your level of interaction.
Perhaps I'm mistaken and you only come off this way when speaking with "Calvinists", but to me, you still can't let go of the derogatory usage of the word, "calvie" to describe those that hold to the "TULIP" summary in their doctrines.

I would ask that you put aside the rhetoric and do what you wish others would do to you...
Treat them with respect.

I also cannot speak for others here who hold to similar views as my own,
but I can say that, regardless of our disagreements, I find that have no trouble doing the same for you.

I agree! I think "Calves" would be much more appropriate, as we debate about milk and meat.

 

[Revmitchell]

Mark,

From your demeanor and tone in these posts, it appears that you enjoy not only remanding people to a position lower than your level of maturity, but also your level of interaction.
Perhaps I'm mistaken and you only come off this way when speaking with "Calvinists", but to me, you still can't let go of the derogatory usage of the word, "calvie" to describe those that hold to the "TULIP" summary in their doctrines.

I would ask that you put aside the rhetoric and do what you wish others would do to you...
Treat them with respect.

I also cannot speak for others here who hold to similar views as my own,
but I can say that, regardless of our disagreements, I find that have no trouble doing the same for you.

Its not derogatory. I will tell you that in almost every post on this board by a calvie to include your own they are dripping with arrogance and condescension. Most of the calvies who come to this site are still in the cage stage and suffer from James White itis. I have calvie friends who I talk with regularly who would never engage the way you guys do. Failure to acknowledge my posts of which you all disapprove of are in response to the invective I and either given or see given on this board regularly. In fact one of you brags about not being willing or have the time to deal with the "niceties" of discussions on this board.

Further, every once in a while a new one shows up on this board and thinks they are going to school me on all the finer points of reformed theology and if it is supposed to be new to me. I was debating calvies long before you and others came along. Nothing you all say to me is new. And I grow tired of all the "derogatory" attacks on me over the years. I no longer engage cage stagers. Its not worth my time. I do not debate to win a debate. And your engagement of me in this thread is another example of the lack of acknowledgement from the invective I received even in this thread. Since that is true I really cannot take your concern seriously.

 

[Dave G]

I agree! I think "Calves" would be much more appropriate, as we debate about milk and meat.

I think you're on to something you may not realize, Derf.