Irresistible Grace is a useless doctrine

[AustinC]

Yes, I do. God’s will is that I don’t commit adultery, including even looking with list on a woman. I have lusted, and I expect I could do it again, if I don’t exercise self control (according to Paul). So if I can lust, and if I can’t oppose God’s will, then God must want me to lust, which divides His kingdom against itself. Is that what you are arguing for? A two-faced god?

No one says you can't oppose God's command to be holy. However, when God chooses the day when you will be eternally holy, will you be able to deny him his will to make you perfect in your holiness?
Don't mistake God's patience and mercy with you being able to stop the will of God from being fully accomplished.

 

[AustinC]

Now you’re suggesting Moses was addressing his words to someone who wasn’t part of God’s people. If the words were addressed to “Israel”, then Israel must have been able to oppose God’s will.

You’ve given yourself a lose-lose proposition.

God addressed his chosen ones and his promised children. Is all Israel, Israel?

Just as the gospel is shared to all, so only the chosen ones of God will respond in faith.

This is shown from Genesis to Revelation. It's easy to observe.

 

[AustinC]

You mean like in Daniel where God makes a King eat grass and live like an animal?

Or when God causes Balaam to bless the Israelites? Or when Saul prophesies instead of killing David? Or when Haman dies on the Gallo's he built for Mordecai, or...

 

[Dave G]

Back to the scripture proofs, if you could also provide commentary on them as to why they apply (as narrowly as you can), it would help the conversation.

I would be glad to.
But it won't be narrow, because I want you to see how and why I see grace as being "irresistible".

Part 1:

Romans 1:18-32 describes the deplorable condition of all men since the fall of Adam, and ends with stating that we not only sin, but we enjoy it.
Romans 2 describes the comparison between those who do well with those who do evil. Those who patiently seek for glory and honor and immortality and in the end, have eternal life;
With those who judge others and forget that they are remiss in their own performance. It also describes the difference between a Jew inwardly and one outwardly...one who rests in the Law, and one who rests in the praise of God;
One who is circumcised outwardly, and one who is circumcised inwardly ( born again ).

Romans 3 tells me of man's "default condition", which is not to seek God in all our ways and has no fear ( respect ) of God.
It also begins to introduce what is acceptable to God as righteousness, which are not the works of the Law...
The faith "of" ( originating with, by or from ) Christ ( Romans 3:22 ) which is upon all them that believe.
It ends by speaking of the believer's justification by their faith.

1 Corinthians 1:18-31 begins by point-blank stating that the preaching of the cross ( the Gospel ) is foolishness to them that are perishing, while it is the power of God to us which are saved.
This is notable because it tells me that there are two groups within mankind that hear the Gospel...The lost and the saved.
It then goes on to declare that God does not work according to the wisdom of men, but of His own wisdom...
That He seeks to destroy the wisdom of men by the way that He works.

In verses 22-24 I see that there are three groups, and they respond differently to the Gospel:
1) Jews, who require a sign, and Christ is a stumblingblock to them.
2) Greeks ( Gentiles ) who regard the Gospel ( Christ crucified ) as foolishness.
3) Them which are "called", both Jews and Greeks ( Gentiles ) to whom the Gospel is the power and wisdom of God.

God chooses the foolish things of the world to confound the wise and the weak things of the world to confound the mighty, so that no flesh should "glory" ( take credit for anything ) in His sight.
It ends with the reminder that it is of God that believers are in the body of Christ, and for a specific purpose:

To glorify God.

 

[Dave G]

Part 2:

1 Corinthians 2:6-16 tells me that Paul is speaking to them that are "perfect", or made perfect by the work of God.
My reason for believing this way has to do with Hebrews 7:19, Hebrews 10:1, Hebrews 11:40 and Hebrews 12:23.
He then proceeds to tell the Corinthians that the wisdom of God, which is a mystery, was ordained by God to the believer's glory before the world began.
The reason that the Spirit is given to believers, is so that they might know the things which are freely given to them by God.

These "things" are the things that Paul is telling them...
They are things that man's wisdom cannot teach, but only what the Holy Spirit of God can teach.
That the "natural man" (unregenerate person) cannot receive ( or welcome ) those things, neither can he understand them because they must be spiritually ( by the Holy Spirit of God ) discerned.
It ends by telling the Corinthians that they are spiritual ( in the Spirit ) and that they have the mind of Christ.


Ephesians 1:3-14 states that God has blessed the Ephesians with all spiritual blessings in Christ.
That they were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, so that they should be holy and without blame before Him in love.
They were predestinated ( their destiny decided beforehand ) to their being adopted as the children of God, and this was by the good pleasure of His will, not their will.

This was done to the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein the believer was made accepted in the beloved ( they did not make themselves accepted ).
The Ephesian believers have obtained an inheritance which they were predestinated to according to God, who works all things after His own will, not ours.
The reason?
That they should be to the praise of His glory.

It ends with Paul telling them that after they believed, they were sealed with the Holy Spirit which is the "earnest" or down-payment of their inheritance until Christ comes again.

Ephesians 2:1-10 begins by informing the Ephesian believers that they were dead in trespasses and sins, and that for this reason they lived their lives according to this world's ways and were subject to the spirit that works in the children of disobedience...God's enemies.
They were by nature the children of wrath, even as the unbelievers are.
Paul then develops why they are saved:

Because even when they were dead in sins,
God, who is rich in mercy and for His great love that He loved them, has made them alive in Christ.
Why?
So that in the ages to come, He might show them the riches of His grace through Jesus Christ.

It goes on to tell them that by grace are they saved through faith, and faith did not originate with them, but it was the gift of God.
It is not of works, so that none may brag about their efforts.
It ends by declaring that they are God's workmanship, and they were created "in Christ Jesus" to good works, that God had ordained them long before they believed, that they should live their lives doing them.

Philippians 1:29 tells me that it was given to the Philippians in the behalf of Christ to both believe on Him and to suffer for His sake.
Anything that is given is a gift.
Therefore, it is God's gift to believe on Christ.

It is not something that we, in and of ourselves, have the capacity to do because of our hardheartedness towards the Lord prior to the new birth.



I'll hold off on Part 3 because I believe that if you read the preceding carefully, I think you will see that not only is God's grace necessary to make a person aware of their need of a Saviour, He does His work in making them born again without asking anyone's permission.
Therefore, it is said to be "irresistible" in the sense that we as mere men can do nothing to prevent the Lord from showing His grace to the objects of His mercy and favor.

 

[Van]

This is not complicated.
Is God the ruler over all creation? Can the created resist and thwart the will of the all-powerful Creator?
That is what being Sovereign means. Having all power, with everything being subject to the all-powerful authority.
So...can the created resist the Creator when the Creator wills something to be so?

My answer is...no.

Is your answer no...or yes?

Can a ruler allow sin? Of course. So the Calvinist answer is obfuscation.
Calvinists have no idea what God's Sovereignty entails. Here is the actual definition, God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass.

 

[AustinC]

Can a ruler allow sin? Of course. So the Calvinist answer is obfuscation.
Calvinists have no idea what God's Sovereignty entails. Here is the actual definition, God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass.

I wouldn't disagree with your last sentence. Can you, however, stop what God ordains?

 

[MB]

I don’t see anything in those definitions that would be wrong to apply to God. Neither do I see anything in them that suggests God only loved those who loved Him. “For while we were yet sinners (did not love God), Christ died for us.”

I understand your aversion to Calvinism, but you’ll do better against it if you don’t let them get under your skin, like JWs are wont to do. And don’t be afraid to reclaim words Calvinists have redefined.

Of course not but these are not the Calvinist definitions the Calvinist use . they add things of there own definition. Such as God cannot remain sovereign if He allows man to have a choice in there own Salvation. Maybe this is something you over looked.
MB

 

[AustinC]

Of course not but these are not the Calvinist definitions the Calvinist use . they add things of there own definition. Such as God cannot remain sovereign if He allows man to have a choice in there own Salvation. Maybe this is something you over looked.
MB

We don't add that. We read scripture and see that God chooses whom he wills. We take God at His word.

 

[Derf B]

I'll hold off on Part 3 because I believe that if you read the preceding carefully, I think you will see that not only is God's grace necessary to make a person aware of their need of a Saviour, He does His work in making them born again without asking anyone's permission.
Therefore, it is said to be "irresistible" in the sense that we as mere men can do nothing to prevent the Lord from showing His grace to the objects of His mercy and favor.

While I admire the excellent effort you expended to put that all together, you made no mention of Irresistible Grace until that last paragraph, which appears to be a conclusion based on your premises, rather than a doctrine that you find in scripture. Meaning that you agree with @MB that irresistible grace is not actually mentioned in scripture, unless your part 3 is markedly different from parts 1 and 2. What I said to MB is that this thread is about the uselessness of the doctrine, rather than the absence of the doctrine from scripture. You are proving far more than I was trying to--that it is not only useless but absent as well. Thanks for your help!

And we see that God DOES ask permission of things at times, or seeks to bless and protect, but is refused.
[Psa 91:4 KJV] 4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth [shall be thy] shield and buckler.
[Mat 23:37 KJV] 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!

 

[Van]

I wouldn't disagree with your last sentence. Can you, however, stop what God ordains?

Does anyone think the Calvinist does not know when Almighty God predestines something, that something occurs? Of course he does. Everyone does! So what was the purpose of the question. To imply I do not? To change the subject? To obfuscate?
Irresistible Grace is false doctrine as verse after verse demonstrates, i.e. saved by grace through (on one the basis of) faith.

 

[Dave G]

While I admire the excellent effort you expended to put that all together, you made no mention of Irresistible Grace until that last paragraph, which appears to be a conclusion based on your premises, rather than a doctrine that you find in scripture.

I didn't think I had to,
as I was hoping that the Scriptures themselves, plus my summarizing of them, would cause you to look at them more carefully.

When I read the Scriptures I see that God's grace, both to me and to others ( especially with regard to salvation ) as being unable to be resisted in the sense that the Lord simply does as He wishes in His work of bestowing that grace and mercy...

He also does not ask anyone's permission in causing the rain to fall on the just and unjust;
Making the sun to shine;
Giving good things to men;
Blessing mothers with babies;
Blessing people with wisdom and good health, etc;

By rights, we should all be suffering in Hell for our sins, Derf,
not enjoying anything good in our lives.



Therefore, just because the Scriptures do not outright declare that His grace is "irresistible" in those exact words,
does not mean, to me, that they do not teach it.

 

[Dave G]

You are proving far more than I was trying to--that it is not only useless but absent as well. Thanks for your help!

Quite the contrary, sir.

All one has to do is to read and believe the many passages that deal with God being gracious to someone, and I think that you will see that we as men have no power over who He is gracious and merciful to.
I firmly believe that when a person fully realizes that every good thing ( especially their gift of eternal life ) comes from God ( John 3:27, James 1:13 ) and God alone,
it causes that person to be very grateful for any good that comes their way.

That's been my own experience and I hope it will one day be yours..

On a side note, I see that Matthew 23:37 deals with matters of the heart;
A hardened heart against seeking the Lord and obeying Him, which Israel was guilty of throughout her history...
It has nothing to do with we as men being able to resist His power, if and when He decides to do something.

With that, I will take my leave of this thread.
Thank you for the privilege to make my replies and to present what I believe to be the truth of God's word.


I wish you well, and may He bless you richly with His grace...
Whether or not you're immediately aware that He is the source of it.

 

[AustinC]

While I admire the excellent effort you expended to put that all together, you made no mention of Irresistible Grace until that last paragraph, which appears to be a conclusion based on your premises, rather than a doctrine that you find in scripture. Meaning that you agree with @MB that irresistible grace is not actually mentioned in scripture, unless your part 3 is markedly different from parts 1 and 2. What I said to MB is that this thread is about the uselessness of the doctrine, rather than the absence of the doctrine from scripture. You are proving far more than I was trying to--that it is not only useless but absent as well. Thanks for your help!

And we see that God DOES ask permission of things at times, or seeks to bless and protect, but is refused.
[Psa 91:4 KJV] 4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth [shall be thy] shield and buckler.
[Mat 23:37 KJV] 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!

For the record...resistable grace is also not a phrase you find in the Bible.

What you find is an all-powerful Creator whose will cannot be thwarted or overpowered. This means...you cannot resist it. Therefore, when God chooses to save you, by his gracious will, you cannot resist him.

 

[Yeshua1]

For the record...resistable grace is also not a phrase you find in the Bible.

What you find is an all-powerful Creator whose will cannot be thwarted or overpowered. This means...you cannot resist it. Therefore, when God chooses to save you, by his gracious will, you cannot resist him.

Thank God He chose to save us in Christ!

 

[AustinC]

Does anyone think the Calvinist does not know when Almighty God predestines something, that something occurs? Of course he does. Everyone does! So what was the purpose of the question. To imply I do not? To change the subject? To obfuscate?
Irresistible Grace is false doctrine as verse after verse demonstrates, i.e. saved by grace through (on one the basis of) faith.

You didn't answer the question.

Can you stop what God ordains?

When God chooses to save you, by His gracious choice, can you stop God?

The answer, as you well know, is...No. You cannot stop God from choosing to graciously save you. The Bible very plainly shows you this.

 

[AustinC]

Thank God He chose to save us in Christ!

That is our response to God's gracious choice.

Otherwise we would say, "Thankfully, I made the correct choice."

 

[Yeshua1]

That is our response to God's gracious choice.

Otherwise we would say, "Thankfully, I made the correct choice."

That sounds pretty arrogant!

 

[MB]

You didn't answer the question.

Can you stop what God ordains?

When God chooses to save you, by His gracious choice, can you stop God?

The answer, as you well know, is...No. You cannot stop God from choosing to graciously save you. The Bible very plainly shows you this.

But Christ does not save those who do not believe the gospel.
MB

 

[AustinC]

But Christ does not save those who do not believe the gospel.i
MB

People do not believe the gospel because God has not given them to Jesus to graciously be saved. Jesus tells us this in John 6, John 10 and John 17.

It amazes me how you require human effort before God can save.

The Bible says:

Ephesians 2:4-9 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

I don't read any verse that says "Christ does not save those who do not believe the gospel."

I do read that God saves by grace and uses faith so that neither you nor I can boast.