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Irresistible Grace Summed Up By Jesus

skypair

Active Member
Martin said:
John 6:37 is talking about individuals coming to Christ. Jesus is talking about believing in Him (vss33-35,40), why some don't (vss36,44), and why some do (vs37).
I disagree. You are "nuamcing" the interpretation to fit your theology. It is true, but in the intra-dispensational sense, it isn't.

People believe in Jesus, come to Jesus, because they were given to Him by the Father (Jn 6:37, 17:2).
Right --- but like I said, you have to have the impremiture (justification) of the Father before you can enter Christ's kingdom.

skypair
 

PK

New Member
Martin said:
==I failed to catch that, thanks for being more alert than I am. :thumbs:

In the world of education, the practice of making someone else's work appear as your own is called plagiarism. Here is a website I link my students to.

However, I will give PK the benefit of the doubt. I think PK was just posting what PK believed was a good response to John 6:37. Personally, I don't think it was a very good (ie...Biblical) response at all.

Thanks for the educational link! I DIDN'T know that this was wrong to do. I will always credit my sources from now on. Honestly did mean to mislead anyone...:thumbs:
 

Martin

Active Member
PK said:
Thanks for the educational link! I DIDN'T know that this was wrong to do. I will always credit my sources from now on. Honestly did mean to mislead anyone...:thumbs:

==O, thats cool. I figured it was an accident. If you wish to reply to my reply, go ahead. :thumbs:
 

Martin

Active Member
skypair said:
I disagree. You are "nuamcing" the interpretation to fit your theology. It is true, but in the intra-dispensational sense, it isn't.

==I just can't go along with that understanding of the verse. The main reason is that it does not seem to fit the context and grammar of the passage.

Jesus had been talking to Jewish people who did not believe in Him. He closes His discussion with them in this way:

"But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe" Jn 6:36

Then Jesus says:

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me" Jn 6:37

There is a contrast there. The Jewish people did not believe, but those the Father has given Jesus would believe. Of course, coming to Jesus is the same as believing in Jesus (Jn 6:40, 17:2). We see the same type of contrast in John 10:26-27. In both places, Jesus is refering to individuals. It is individuals who come to Christ, who are secure in Christ, and who will be raised to life by Christ. It is individuals who are given eternal life.

Therefore I am forced to stick with my understanding of the text.
 

skypair

Active Member
Martin said:
Jesus had been talking to Jewish people who did not believe in Him. He closes His discussion with them in this way:

"But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe" Jn 6:36

Then Jesus says:

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me" Jn 6:37
Yes, but skip back to 6:29. They ask Him "What shall we do that we might do the works of God?" Isn't this a salvation question? Did they say "works?" PAY ATTENTION, here!

And Jesus said, "This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him Whom He hath sent." Jesus is preaching the gospel here, Martin! BUT the gospel of Jesus Christ was not yet "activated" by His death and resurrection and NO ONE could believe it (just as your comment suggests!).

There is a contrast there. The Jewish people did not believe, but those the Father has given Jesus would believe.
No, those whom the Father WOULD give to believe God would believe in the Son.

In both places, Jesus is refering to individuals. It is individuals who come to Christ, who are secure in Christ, and who will be raised to life by Christ. It is individuals who are given eternal life.
Yes, but TECHNICALLY and scripturally, they come to GOD for "justification" first (as the OT saints did) and God gives them to Christ for "sanctification" as all NT believers are.

Therefore I am forced to stick with my understanding of the text.
Hey -- you "have your reasons." I just hope they will satisfy Christ at the Bema, 1Cor 3. "Wood, hay, and stubble" make lousy building materials for a heavenly home! :laugh: Therefore, the "code" doesn't allow them! :laugh:

skypair
 

PK

New Member
canadyjd said:
What about all those folks who never hear the gospel? Just too bad they weren't born in a country, or at a time in history, when the gospel was being preached?

God says that nature itself is a witness of Him.

If God choses people for salvation based on what they do, then it is no longer grace. Grace means "unmerited favor".

Pre-election would be "merited favor". Why did God show favor to you and elect you and not me?

You must believe in "merited favor" because that is what you just said. God saw who would believe, and chose people for salvation based on something they do. If God is responding to man, then man has earned his salvation before God, and it cannot rightly be called "grace" any longer.

peace to you:praying:

I think you have faith and works mixed up.
If I had cancer and you had made the cure for all that are sick, is it works for me to take that medicine believing that it would heal me? I didn't do anything to merit your provision. You made the medicine because you knew people would have cancer.
 
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Timtoolman

New Member
PK said:
If God choses people for salvation based on what they do, then it is no longer grace. Grace means "unmerited favor".

Actually it is people responding to what God has done. Thats all.
 

Timtoolman

New Member
Strange Thinking

PK said:
I think you have faith and works mixed up.
If I had cancer and you had made the cure for all that are sick, is it works for me to take that medicine believing that it would heal me? I didn't do anything to merit your provision. You made the medicine because knew people would have cancer.


Yes, that question has been asked a thousand times PK. They do not think like us. In thier world (if I am not mistaken) the reciever of the gift somehow gets the glory for the Gift because they recieved it. I really haven't figured that one out yet. In otherwords in your scenio the reciever of the medicine can claim the glory for healing himself.
 
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skypair

Active Member
Martin,

Just another comment on John 6 which I reread last night. Reading the entire discourse, it is amazing how much of NT theology Jesus was revealing! He was telling them about the Eucharist blood and body (wine and bread). This whole discourse not only was way beyond their ability to comprehend until His death and resurrection, it actually drove many even disciples away in disbelief!

Yet both images -- that of coming and that of blood and body -- speak of 2 saving things. One is salvation unto eternal life -- justification before God -- and the other speaks of saving THIS LIFE -- sanctification unto life -- when we are given unto the Son or when we eat His flesh.

But I will say that Calvinists are unaware of this distinction because they do not view the soul and spirit as separate entities to be dealt with separately by God in salvation.

skypair
 

skypair

Active Member
PK said:
I think you have faith and works mixed up.
If I had cancer and you had made the cure for all that are sick, is it works for me to take that medicine believing that it would heal me? I didn't do anything to merit your provision. You made the medicine because you knew people would have cancer.
So true, PK. Very good analogy. :thumbs:

skypair
 

Lou Martuneac

New Member
Jarthur001 said:
Hello PK,

I am not going to debate irresistible grace. I believe it to be true, but it is hard to prove. It is also hard to disprove. Irresistible grace (IG) must be looked at with total depravity. I wrote a 3 part study on this, maybe 4 part, I can't remember right now linking the two. IG is but a short part of the study of the two linked together.
J:

You have provided a classic example of the circle logic of five-point Calvinism.

Your statement demonstrates that in this issue you rely on reason rather than revelation as the basis for your theological moorings. You approach and arrive at Calvinism with reason rather than faith.


LM
 

Lou Martuneac

New Member
PK said:
JOHN 6:37-40 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Calvinistic theology focuses on the first part of John 6:37 to support the TULIP doctrine of irresistible grace. If the first half of John 6:37 is taken out of context, it does appear to teach some sort of irresistible grace, but it cannot be forced from its context.

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me" refers to the fact that the Father has ordained that every believer will have eternal life. This is explained clearly in verse 40 - "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." Words could not be plainer, and this is what the New Testament repeatedly promises. The Gospel is not limited to the elect. The Gospel is for whosoever will, and the elect are the whosoever will. Consider the teaching of John chapter six which refutes the TULIP doctrine of irresistible grace: (1) The Lord Jesus Christ died for whole world (Jn. 6:51; compare Luke 2:10,30-32; John 1:29; 3:16; Rom. 15:8-12; Eph. 2:11-22; 1 Tim. 2:6; Heb. 2:9; 1 Pet. 3:19-21; 1 John 4:14). (2) It is God's express will for all men to saved (Jn. 6:40; compare John 3:16; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9). (3) Any man who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ has eternal life (Jn. 6:40,47,51).

Second, there is the context of the entire Gospel of John, which repeatedly emphasizes the universal call of God inviting sinners to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and which repeatedly promises that whosoever shall believe on the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved. This is the theme of John's Gospel, and it is the purpose for the book. "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (John 20:31). The Gospel is not addressed merely to "the elect" but to every individual in the entire world. It is an elect only Gospel, but a whosoever Gospel.

Someone will doubtless point to verse 44 to support the doctrine of irresistible grace: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." This verse does not prove that God sovereignly chooses who will and will not be saved, for the Bible also tells us that God desires all men to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9). It is absolutely true that no man can come to Christ except the Father draw him, but Jesus said in John 12:32, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL MEN unto me." How does God draw men to Christ? He draws through the Gospel, which He has commanded to be preached to every creature (Mark 16:15). It is by the Gospel that God calls men (2 Thess. 2:14). 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 tells us that those who are lost are lost not because they are not chosen for salvation, but because THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH, THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED.

In John 6 the Lord Jesus Christ is addressing the Jewish crowds which were following Him because of the miracle of the multiplying loaves (John 6:24-26). Their minds were set on worldly things. They wanted a worldly savior and king, a political and social messiah. The Lord had irrefutably proven His messiahship to them by His birth, life, and miracles, but they still asked for "a sign" (verse 30) and they did not believe (verse 36, "ye also have seen me, and believe not"). Why did most of the Jewish people not believe? Why did the Jewish leaders not believe? It was not because God had not chosen them? It was because of THEIR OWN HARD HEARTS. When Christ wept over Jerusalem just prior to His crucifixion, He stated this matter plainly: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, HOW OFTEN WOULD I HAVE GATHERED THY CHILDREN TOGETHER, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT!" (Matthew 23:37). The problem was not that the unbelieving Jews were not chosen for salvation. Christ would have saved all of them. The problem was that they rejected Him. The problem was the will. Christ would, but they would not. Man has the capability to reject God, and He has the capability to receive God. That is taught from the beginning of the Bible to the end.

I do not deny that there is a special work of God in the believer's life to draw him to Christ. It is impossible for a man to come to Christ except God drawn him and enlighten him and convict him; but this is precisely what God does by the Holy Spirit for every man who hears the Gospel (John 16:8).

God's election cannot be divorced from His foreknowledge. We are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God" (1 Peter 1:2). God has known from all eternity who will and will not receive the Gospel.

God has chosen that those who receive the Gospel of Jesus Christ will be eternally saved!

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40).
PK:

I did appreciate this comment and glad you will cite sources from here on out.


LM
 
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Lou Martuneac said:
J:

You have provided a classic example of the circle logic of five-point Calvinism.

Your statement demonstrates that in this issue you rely on reason rather than revelation as the basis for your theological moorings. You approach and arrive at Calvinism with reason rather than faith.


LM

I hope you don't get upset and call me a liar Lou. Irrestible grace is very easy to prove. John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."
 
John 6:39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

John 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

John 17:2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.

John 17:6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.

John 17:8-9
8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received {them} and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.
9 "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;

John 17:11 "I am no longer in the world; and {yet} they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, {the name} which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We {are.}

John 17:24 "Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
 
Here are a few more verses to consider...... we don't have to use a circle of logic.

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."


John 10:28-29
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given {them} to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch {them} out of the Father's hand.

Ephesians 2:4-10
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly {places} in Christ Jesus,
7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Philippians 1:29 For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
14 It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness."

Titus 3:3-7
3 For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.
4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and {His} love for mankind appeared,
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to {the} hope of eternal life.
 
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