Irresistible Grace

[JD731]

The Lord Jesus was never dead in trespasses and sins towards God, JD...
Not like we were before we were born again.

What do you think happened on the cross?

The Lord Himself has made us alive in Christ, spiritually.
Do you understand what it is to be "dead in sins"?

Yes, I do.

Exactly how does believing the words on the page constitute philosophy?/QUOTE]



Because many of the words in your Reformed lexicon are not on the page. They are made up by someone. "sovereign grace, unconditional election, total depravity, limited atonement, irresistible grace, general call.

 

[Sai]

Based on what? Jesus body was not taken from the cross until the eve of the day of preperation, Mark 15:42, "And nowe when the night was come (because it was the day of the preparation that is before the Sabbath)" -- Geneva Bible 1560. The evening goes before the Jewish day. According to Matthew's account Jesus rose from the dead on the first of the week, Matthew 28:1-2.

Sabbath started Friday evening ended on Saturday eve and Sunday began once 2 stars were visible Saturday night.

 

[Dave G]

What do you think happened on the cross?

"For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." ( Romans 5:6-10 )

" buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 [and] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it." ( Colossians 2:12-15 ).

What do you think actually happened at the cross?

 

[Dave G]

Yet Timothy was elect in accordance with the national election of Israel (not salvation) and thereby was circumcised in obedience to the provisions of the Abrahamic Covenant. Timothy double election one for salvation and one as a Jew.

Timothy was only 1/2 Hebrew.
His father was a Gentile.

 

[37818]

Sabbath started Friday evening ended on Saturday eve and Sunday began once 2 stars were visible Saturday night.

Yes, that is generally the understanding, As to tradition of seeing two stars, I personally know nothing of that tradition.

 

[Sai]

Timothy was only 1/2 Hebrew.
His father was a Gentile.

The biblical reckoning of Jewish heritage is thru the father. In the case of Jewish motherhoods it is up to the children to choose to identify with their Jewish or gentile sides. By circumcision Tim chose to identify with being Jewish and in obedience to the Abrahamic Covenant qualifies him as a member of the Israel of God.

 

[robycop3]

Gentlemen, a person BECOMES elect. For example, Donald Trump was just Donald Trump before Nov. 4, 2016, then, he became POTUS-ELECT Donald Trump. He kept that title til Jan. 20, 2017 when he became POTUS Donald Trump.

We Christians are citizens-elect of the Kingdom of God, which isn't yet physically established on earth. When Jesus returns, we will be citizens of the kingdom He will set up & rule.

We become elect thru His grace, that is, unmerited favor, by calling on His name in belief, repentance, & submission. Jesus is the Elector; He casts the ONLY electoral vote.

God has chosen a few individuals for special service to Him, such as Moses, Jeremiah, and Paul. Now, while He made each od them "an offer they couldn't refuse", each had to choose to serve Him. God did not want robots, incapable of the slightest disobedience; He wanted people to serve Him of their own free will, because they loved Him.

 

[robycop3]

Yes, that is generally the understanding, As to tradition of seeing two stars, I personally know nothing of that tradition.

One can sometimes see Sirius and Canopus before the sun is completely set, as well as several of the planets, but the "official" time of the beginning of a new day for Jews is the moment the sun is completely set. The Romans had water clocks as well as sundials, which the Jews used. In earlier times, the Israelis reckoned the new day beginning on cloudy days when the sky began to darken.

 

[Dave G]

We become elect thru His grace, that is, unmerited favor, by calling on His name in belief, repentance, & submission. Jesus is the Elector; He casts the ONLY electoral vote.

Then we "elected" ourselves, didn't we, roby?

In other words, if salvation and acquiring the gift of eternal life depends upon calling upon His name in belief, repentance and submission, then He didn't cast the only electoral vote, did He?
Our say is what determined who He saved, if that is true.
I also notice that you use the phrase, "unmerited favor", and then proceed to tell people what they can do to merit that favor.
Are you absolutely sure that you're seeing it correctly?

I encourage you to think about that for a bit, and turn it over in your mind a few times.

We Christians are citizens-elect of the Kingdom of God, which isn't yet physically established on earth. When Jesus returns, we will be citizens of the kingdom He will set up & rule.

I agree, roby.
We are citizens-elect ( chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1:4 ) of a new world that is coming.

Yet, we as believers are still the children of God that He foreknew, predestinated conformed to the image of His dear Son, called ( 1 Corinthians 1:9 ), justified and glorified ( Romans 8:28-30 )...
It's all a done deal from His perspective.

He loved His children with a great love, even when they were dead in trespasses and sins ( Ephesians 2:1-7 ).

 

[Dave G]

God did not want robots, incapable of the slightest disobedience; He wanted people to serve Him of their own free will, because they loved Him.

Amen.
I serve Him of my own freed will...

A will that was, until He gave me the new birth, in abject slavery to my own corrupt and self-serving heart.
I also know that the reason that I love Him, is because He first loved me ( 1 John 4:19 ), chose me and caused me to approach Him.
He did all that with His word and by the power of His Spirit ( Titus 3:5-7, James 1:18 ).

I can tell you with all seriousness that until May of 1978, I couldn't have cared less about the Lord and seeking Him;
Until I heard the word of God and He got a hold of me in a way that I will never forget...
He showed me my sin and my desperate need of a Saviour, and I actually began to care what He thought of me.
Without His work in me, I would still be uncaring and my attitude towards sin would still be "meh".

Since then He has shown me many amazing and sobering truths...
Truths such as how salvation is of the Lord, and I had nothing to do with Him and His work ( Ephesians 2:10, Philippians 1:6, Philippians 2:13 ) in me.

It's all of grace, and none of works;
My best efforts at obedience or even "simple belief" would have yielded absolutely nothing from Him, as He will not be indebted to rebellious sinners ( Romans 4:4, Romans 11:5-6 ) for any reason.




May God bless you in many ways, sir.

 

[robycop3]

Yes, while God has, and will, predestinate some for special service to Him, He has NOT predestinated anyone for hell, no matter what.

Remember, Jesus said He stands at the door and knocks. He does not bust the door down & enter on His own. People must get up & go open the door.

 

[JD731]

David would disagree with the part about grace.

God’s dealing with men is now, has been and will only ever be by his grace and mercy.

Thank you Sai for weighing in but I don't think you have considered the weight of your comment. Someone who is under the law is not under mercy. C'mon now. I am asking you to think. Law can't have mercy on anyone. It can only condemn. God used it in Israel to prove they needed mercy because the law condemned them all. Rom 7 would be an interesting read for you now to see that clearly. But, in the meantime I offer this;

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

The mercy is that someone stepped in the condemned man's place and paid the penalty. The law was not going away until it's demands were met. That is what Jesus did on the cross and his resurrection proved two things. 1) The law approved of his sacrifice, and 2) God approved of his sacrifice.

I am amazed that Reformed people will not see this great truth.

 

[JD731]

Amen.
I serve Him of my own freed will...

A will that was, until He gave me the new birth, in abject slavery to my own corrupt and self-serving heart.
I also know that the reason that I love Him, is because He first loved me ( 1 John 4:19 ), chose me and caused me to approach Him.
He did all that with His word and by the power of His Spirit ( Titus 3:5-7, James 1:18 ).

I can tell you with all seriousness that until May of 1978, I couldn't have cared less about the Lord and seeking Him;
Until I heard the word of God and He got a hold of me in a way that I will never forget...
He showed me my sin and my desperate need of a Saviour, and I actually began to care what He thought of me.
Without His work in me, I would still be uncaring and my attitude towards sin would still be "meh".

Since then He has shown me many amazing and sobering truths...
Truths such as how salvation is of the Lord, and I had nothing to do with Him and His work ( Ephesians 2:10, Philippians 1:6, Philippians 2:13 ) in me.

It's all of grace, and none of works;
My best efforts at obedience or even "simple belief" would have yielded absolutely nothing from Him, as He will not be indebted to rebellious sinners ( Romans 4:4, Romans 11:5-6 ) for any reason.




May God bless you in many ways, sir.

Dave G, don't let anyone trick you into believing that faith in Christ is a work.There is such a thing as a "work of faith" but that has it's own context.Believing that faith is a work is a work in itself if that is true. It is not.

 

[Sai]

Thank you Sai for weighing in but I don't think you have considered the weight of your comment. Someone who is under the law is not under mercy. C'mon now. I am asking you to think. Law can't have mercy on anyone. It can only condemn. God used it in Israel to prove they needed mercy because the law condemned them all. Rom 7 would be an interesting read for you now to see that clearly. But, in the meantime I offer this;

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

The mercy is that someone stepped in the condemned man's place and paid the penalty. The law was not going away until it's demands were met. That is what Jesus did on the cross and his resurrection proved two things. 1) The law approved of his sacrifice, and 2) God approved of his sacrifice.

I am amazed that Reformed people will not see this great truth.

David said he was under mercy, under grace. And yet David said that the law was his delight meditating on it day and night.

I think you don’t realize the whole purpose of the law. Even Abraham followed laws. The fact is that today we are under laws that are not options but actual commands. But just like everyone else in history the law of life of the believers isn’t about salvation it’s about how one is to act in their relationship to God.

The law of Moses unknown to the believers of Israel had multiple functions. It was to augment sins it actually made sinning increase for David and company. The Noahic law did not, the law of Christ does not, only the Mosaic law had this aspect. The law of Moses was the rule of life for all of the prophets of Israel. Surely you agree that they did not seek salvation thru works?

 

[Dave G]

Remember, Jesus said He stands at the door and knocks.

Stands at the door and knocks for who, roby?

" And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." ( Revelation 3:14-22 ).

Here I see that the Spirit of God is addressing the church at Laodicea, roby;
Not all men.

Follow the pronouns...
"Thou", "thine", "as many as I love".

Therefore, are not the "any" in verse 20, in context with the rest?

The Lord Jesus is speaking to those who profess, rob, not to all men;
Is He not?

He does not bust the door down & enter on His own.

I agree.

Those who have received the new birth, He treats exceeding kindly.

People must get up & go open the door.

All men, or only those who have believed from the heart?
I happen to disagree that people are saved by an act of their will, even though you seem to see it differently when you read the Scriptures.

Good afternoon to you sir.

 

[Sai]

Stands at the door and knocks for who, roby?

" And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." ( Revelation 3:14-22 ).

Here I see that the Spirit of God is addressing the church at Laodicea, roby;
Not all men.

Follow the pronouns...
"Thou", "thine", "as many as I love".

Therefore, are not the "any" in verse 20, in context with the rest?

The Lord Jesus is speaking to those who profess, rob, not to all men;
Is He not?

I agree.

Those who have received the new birth, He treats exceeding kindly.

All men, or only those who have believed from the heart?
I happen to disagree that people are saved by an act of their will, even though you seem to see it differently when you read the Scriptures.

Good afternoon to you sir.

The fact that Jesus is “outside” the door signifies that the laodicean Church is totally unsaved, thus Christ is addressing unsaved people.

 

[Dave G]

Dave G, don't let anyone trick you into believing that faith in Christ is a work.

I won't.
I see the scriptures telling me that my belief was a work of God ( John 6:29 ), and that it was given to me in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on Him, but to suffer for His sake ( Philippians 1:29 ).

Therefore, my faith, which was authored and finished by Jesus Christ, comes from God and is His work, not mine.

There is such a thing as a "work of faith" but that has it's own context.

I agree.

Believing that faith is a work is a work in itself if that is true. It is not.

To me, there are plenty of people who see that their faith is what saves them.

In other words, they tend to make their faith into a work...
in that they think that it was their act of faith that grants them God's favor and the gift of eternal life.

But God's word puts that to rest when He says that it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.

 

[Dave G]

The fact that Jesus is “outside” the door signifies that the laodicean Church is totally unsaved, thus Christ is addressing unsaved people.

I see Him saying:
" As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."

Therefore, there are some that are indeed saved and are His beloved sheep...
Otherwise, He would not be rebuking and chastening them.

 

[Sai]

I see Him saying:
" As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."

Therefore, there are some that are indeed saved and are His beloved sheep...
Otherwise, He would not be rebuking and chastening them.

I think it is better to view this as a general principle of saved and unsaved individuals in every church. However, for this church there is no commendation, and it pictures Christ not even present within it. The Laodecean Church will enter into the tribulation and be part of Ecclesiastical Babylon’s world religious system.

 

[robycop3]

Stands at the door and knocks for who, roby?

" And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." ( Revelation 3:14-22 ).

Here I see that the Spirit of God is addressing the church at Laodicea, roby;
Not all men.

Follow the pronouns...
"Thou", "thine", "as many as I love".

Therefore, are not the "any" in verse 20, in context with the rest?

The Lord Jesus is speaking to those who profess, rob, not to all men;
Is He not?

I agree.

Those who have received the new birth, He treats exceeding kindly.

All men, or only those who have believed from the heart?
I happen to disagree that people are saved by an act of their will, even though you seem to see it differently when you read the Scriptures.

Good afternoon to you sir.

"Any man" means ANY MAN. Jesus didn't say, "any among you Laodiceans".(BTW, I don't use the KJV with its many goofs & booboos, & archaic language that's no longer used.)