Irresistible Grace

[Dave G]

"Any man" means ANY MAN.

"Any man" means "any man" that he is talking to among the church that He is addressing.
In this case, the one at Laodicea.

If you cannot see that, I'm sorry.

Jesus didn't say, "any among you Laodiceans".

Yes, He did.
That is the context, roby.

The "any man" in verse 20 is bracketed and clarified by the "as many as I love" in verse 19, the "him that overcomes" in verse 21 and the "he that has an ear" in verse 22.
It is to those that He is speaking.
You may lift it out of the text, use it to ,mean "any man that God has created" and quote it that way if you wish, but I cannot.
To me, the context does not bear that out.

Again, I'm sorry that you do not see that.

(BTW, I don't use the KJV with its many goofs & booboos, & archaic language that's no longer used.)

BTW,
I confidently rest on the "KJV", despite its few "goofs and booboos", because to me, it's far more accurate to the Greek Received Text and the Ben Chayyim Hebrew than any other translation in the English today.
In addition, I hold that it's more faithful in the words that it does use when compared to other English translations, even though those words have now fallen into disuse.

We can disagree all you like roby, and you can hate the KJV all you want, but I will continue to use it whether or not you condone it.
With respect, for you to keep reminding me of your hatred of it does nothing to change my mind, nor am I willing to stop quoting from it on this forum just because you happen to think that it's not a good translation.

I figure that if it was good enough for my brothers and sisters down through the years of the past 3-4 centuries, and it's good enough now.
Frankly, I have no trouble understanding it, even if you might.

May God bless you, sir, and know that I bear you no ill will...
even though you keep bringing this subject up time and again.

 

[JD731]

David said he was under mercy, under grace. And yet David said that the law was his delight meditating on it day and night.

I think you don’t realize the whole purpose of the law. Even Abraham followed laws. The fact is that today we are under laws that are not options but actual commands. But just like everyone else in history the law of life of the believers isn’t about salvation it’s about how one is to act in their relationship to God.

The law of Moses unknown to the believers of Israel had multiple functions. It was to augment sins it actually made sinning increase for David and company. The Noahic law did not, the law of Christ does not, only the Mosaic law had this aspect. The law of Moses was the rule of life for all of the prophets of Israel. Surely you agree that they did not seek salvation thru works?

Nobody speaking under inspiration taught that the law was bad. Read Romans 7 where Paul was telling how it was holy, just, and good. But that which was holy, just, and good condemned him because he could not meet its standards. He wrote of the glory of the law in 2 Cor 3:as being so glorious that Moses had to cover his head when he came from receiving it because of his shining. I know what the law is and, yes, Israel did try to get saved by it if we can believe the record. Here;

Romans 10:1-5
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

 

[Sai]

Nobody speaking under inspiration taught that the law was bad. Read Romans 7 where Paul was telling how it was holy, just, and good. But that which was holy, just, and good condemned him because he could not meet its standards. He wrote of the glory of the law in 2 Cor 3:as being so glorious that Moses had to cover his head when he came from receiving it because of his shining. I know what the law is and, yes, Israel did try to get saved by it if we can believe the record. Here;

Romans 10:1-5
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

“Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭51:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[37818]

. . . of course the non elect do resist this grace

Titus 2:11, "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, . . ."

 

[Barry Johnson]

GRACE - A NT principle of divine dealing made possible by the cross of Jesus Christ where sin was taken away and God was propitiated by his sacrifice on behalf of all men.The sacrifice of Christ did not dictate that God must be gracious to all men but it was God who sent him and he who agreed to be the sacrifice so God could be just and the justifier of him who believes in Jesus Christ. In the OT we read that God is angry with the sinners every day. He was angry because men sinned. Take the sin away by properly prosecuting it unto death by an innocent substitute and there is nothing to be angry about any more. God is then reconciled to sinners. Why wouldn't he be? He is the judge of all the earth. The penalty of sin has been applied. The demands of the divine law has been satisfied. The judge can be gracious to any one who will come to him and appropriate the divine pardon by faith in his name.Guilty no more

When Noah stepped off the ark in Gen 8 into a new world God put all men under the divine principle of human government. Men would rule over men for God. It got ugly quick and God took a man around 3 centuries later and created a nation over whom he coukld rule and he would give them his laws and discipline them through his ceremonies and thus demonstrate the other nations his power and person. His nation was not charged with evangelism but he sent them to other nations often as his arm of judgment and death on them for their sin. He did not deal with his own nation or other nations under grace, he dealt with them under law. No one could accuse God of killing some people for their sins because the wages of sin is death.God does not need a jury to decide if someone is guilty.

Everything changed when Jesus came. The law of God had done it's job. It had convinced everyone that they are sinners and deserve the judgment they are under. When Jesus died for sin as a perfect man who did keep all his law God raised him from the dead and gave his eternal Spirit as a matter of his grace to anyone who would confess him as their Lord. He is the "Lord" Jesus and men must bow their knee to him and claim their worthiness is in him alone and then God will apply his righteousness to that man who does.God and man must be in perfect agreement about Jesus Christ. Both must declare that he is the only way to be saved.God has done that but most men have not. The ones who do are safe. This is God's grace.God could have been gracious before Jesus came but he could not have excused sin. Today, God is judging nobody because he is not imputing sin. How could he if Jesus had taken it away? Men will be judged when they die according to He 9:27. The door is open now. Sinners must come through it. Time in this age is running out. Today is the day of salvation. Now is the accepted time. Don't wait. Bend the knee now God is gracious. He will save the most vile sinner who comes to him in the name of Jesus Christ.

Do not get this wrong!.

Amen !!!

 

[Barry Johnson]

"For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." ( Romans 5:6-10 )

" buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 [and] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it." ( Colossians 2:12-15 ).

What do you think actually happened at the cross?

No one was saved at the cross . That would deny the resurection .

 

[Alan Gross]

Yes, while God has, and will, predestinate some for special service to Him, He has NOT predestinated anyone for hell, no matter what.

Remember, Jesus said He stands at the door and knocks. He does not bust the door down & enter on His own. People must get up & go open the door.

ALL were "Going to Hell".

= Acts 8:48. "And as many as were ordained unto eternal life believed."

Jesus Stands and knocks at the door of the heart of The Believers,
in THE CHURCH ASSEMBLIES, HE IS WRITING TO.

= nothing to do with 'Salvation', or lost souls.

*Church membership in The New Testament church assemblies of Jesus Christ, then and now, have a prerequisite of a Salvation Testimony, before being accepted into membership, by Scriptural Baptism ( administered by a Divinely Organized church of Jesus Christ, in accordance with New Testament Authority).

Saying God Predestined some to 'service', but not Salvation is too deep a water for me to tread in.

 

[Alan Gross]

"Any man" means ANY MAN. Jesus didn't say, "any among you Laodiceans".(BTW, I don't use the KJV with its many goofs & booboos, & archaic language that's no longer used.)

19 "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."

The verse before gives the context of, 20 "Behold, I stand at the door, ( of, As many as I love) and knock: if any man (of, As many as I love) hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him,(of, As many as I love) and will sup with him, (of, As many as I love) and he ( of, As many as I love) with me.

*Church membership in The New Testament church assemblies of Jesus Christ, then and now, have a prerequisite of a Salvation Testimony, before being accepted into membership, by Scriptural Baptism ( administered by a Divinely Organized church of Jesus Christ, in accordance with New Testament Authority).

22 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the *churches."

...is the COMMAND GIVEN regarding being Faithful to the ADMONITION and WARNING,
made to the same Saved souls in;
19 "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."

...
That is why this is true in reference to:
Jesus Stands and knocks at the door of the heart of The Believers.

= nothing to do with 'Salvation', or lost souls.

 

[Alan Gross]

My understanding (to generate light not heat)

D. Irresistible Grace
(1) Efficacious Grace or Calling meaning irresistible for the elect of course the non elect do resist this grace.

*Distinguished from the General Calling out to all people to respond to the gospel (A declaration of the plan of salvation, where the Holy Spirit does its work to convict the world for sin).

Biblically defined total depravity means men left to themselves because dead in sins will not respond to God, on his own he will never seek God. Therefore God initiated by unconditional election, from the foundation of the world (even before), from the mass of humanity under condemnation because of their depravity he chose to save some and then thru the Messiah he provided salvation for all. But now he must do something to get the elect to respond. So what irresistible grace results in is a divine enabling to respond to the gospel. And so by special divine enabling of the elect they are able to exercise the faith they need to receive the free gift of salvation.

*The difference between the strict-Calvinist and the hyper-Calvinist is they would say we’re not dealing with divine enabling but God must regenerate the person first and then give him the gift of faith. Never in scripture is saving faith the gift, the verse they use is Ep 2:8-9 but they must violate the rules of Greek grammar which is grammatically an impossible interpretation It is the salvation that is the gift. So if we keep it in a moderate biblical format irresistible grace by this means God gives a divine enabling in order for the elect to respond. Without this divine enabling their sin would keep them from responding or even having a desire to respond. Jn 1:13 the will of man does not initiate this, but will of God. Jn 6:37 (no room for any maybes) Acts 13:48.
All three
Acts 16:14 (General Call who heard) (Efficacious Call God opened her heart ) (The Belief she gave heed)

Rom 8:28-30 those that were preordained they will receive this divine call they will respond to.

Rom 9:16 it’s by the mercy of God they are given this divine enabling to respond it wouldn’t come from their own fallen will.

*CALLED
Cor 1:9, 23-24, Gal 1:15, Phil 2:13 Thess 2:14, 5:24, 2 Tim 1:9, Heb 3:1, Pet 2:9, so God’s response to the problem of total depravity is not as the strict/hyper Calvinist where God forces salvation on the elect. Rather he gives divine enabling to the elect so that they are able to exercise the will and the grace of God is such they will always respond correctly.

2 Timothy 2:19. "Nevertheless the Foundation of God Standeth Sure;
having this Seal, The Lord Knoweth them that are His."

 

[Alan Gross]

"Any man" means "any man" that he is talking to among the church that He is addressing.
In this case, the one at Laodicea.

If you cannot see that, I'm sorry.

Yes, He did.
That is the context, roby.

The "any man" in verse 20 is bracketed and clarified by the "as many as I love" in verse 19, the "him that overcomes" in verse 21 and the "he that has an ear" in verse 22.
It is to those that He is speaking.
You may lift it out of the text, use it to ,mean "any man that God has created" and quote it that way if you wish, but I cannot.
To me, the context does not bear that out.

Again, I'm sorry that you do not see that.

BTW,
I confidently rest on the "KJV", despite its few "goofs and booboos", because to me, it'slet it be observed that the state of this church, and the members of it, was such that she was not cold, without a principle of spiritual life and love, and a profession of religion; far more accurate to the Greek Received Text and the Ben Chayyim Hebrew than any other translation in the English today.
In addition, I hold that it's more faithful in the words that it does use when compared to other English translations, even though those words have now fallen into disuse.

We can disagree all you like roby, and you can hate the KJV all you want, but I will continue to use it whether or not you condone it.
With respect, for you to keep reminding me of your hatred of it does nothing to change my mind, nor am I willing to stop quoting from it on this forum just because you happen to think that it's not a good translation.

I figure that if it was good enough for my brothers and sisters down through the years of the past 3-4 centuries, and it's good enough now.
Frankly, I have no trouble understanding it, even if you might.

May God bless you, sir, and know that I bear you no ill will...
even though you keep bringing this subject up time and again.

"...let it be observed that the state of this church, and the members of it, was such that she was not cold, without a principle of spiritual life and love, and a profession of religion/"

These were Saved souls and members of One of The Lord's New Testament churches.

The Cause of God and Truth

Part 1, Section 59—Revelation 2 and Revelation 3.

 

[Sai]

2 Timothy 2:19. "Nevertheless the Foundation of God Standeth Sure;
having this Seal, The Lord Knoweth them that are His."

Praise God.

 

[MB]

ALL were "Going to Hell".

= Acts 8:48. "And as many as were ordained unto eternal life believed."

Jesus Stands and knocks at the door of the heart of The Believers,
in THE CHURCH ASSEMBLIES, HE IS WRITING TO.

= nothing to do with 'Salvation', or lost souls.

*Church membership in The New Testament church assemblies of Jesus Christ, then and now, have a prerequisite of a Salvation Testimony, before being accepted into membership, by Scriptural Baptism ( administered by a Divinely Organized church of Jesus Christ, in accordance with New Testament Authority).

Saying God Predestined some to 'service', but not Salvation is too deep a water for me to tread in.

There is no acts 8:48
MB

 

[Alan Gross]

There is no acts 8:48
MB

13

 

[MB]

13

A word for word translation such as the YLT does not say the same thing does it?

Act 13:48 And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the Lord, and did believe—as many as were appointed to life age-during;
MB

 

[ThyWordIsTruth]

What about Acts 7:51?

"“You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you"

The context is about salvation

 

[1689Dave]

What about Acts 7:51?

"“You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you"

The context is about salvation

There were different levels of resistance. Holy Spirit = God. In the OT they resisted God and brought great judgement and exile, time and again. It had nothing to do with salvation. In the NT their resistance brought the siege of Jerusalem and their physical removal as a nation and worse.

 

[Barry Johnson]

ALL were "Going to Hell".

= Acts 8:48. "And as many as were ordained unto eternal life believed."

Jesus Stands and knocks at the door of the heart of The Believers,
in THE CHURCH ASSEMBLIES, HE IS WRITING TO.

= nothing to do with 'Salvation', or lost souls.

*Church membership in The New Testament church assemblies of Jesus Christ, then and now, have a prerequisite of a Salvation Testimony, before being accepted into membership, by Scriptural Baptism ( administered by a Divinely Organized church of Jesus Christ, in accordance with New Testament Authority).

Saying God Predestined some to 'service', but not Salvation is too deep a water for me to tread in.

Predestination and Election are not the same . Election is to service . Predestination is once people are saved they are predestined to future guaranteed Adoption, which is defined not as at conversion ( thats the Spirit OF adoption ) But glorification. No one is predsestined TO BE saved in some weird gnostic 'eternity past '. before we existed ; arbitrarily that no one knows about and the bible speak s nothing about . And I think you meant Acts 13 .48 . But they clearly appointed themselves . There is no mention of God doing the appointing . Let alone before the foundation of the world.
Acts 13 .46 makes this clear when these Jews do not appoint / incline / choose themselves worthy of eternal life .

 

[MB]

There were different levels of resistance. Holy Spirit = God. In the OT they resisted God and brought great judgement and exile, time and again. It had nothing to do with salvation. In the NT their resistance brought the siege of Jerusalem and their physical removal as a nation and worse.

Resisting the Holy Spirit is resisting God and Salvation. Rejection of Christ is resisting Jesus and the grace of God.
MB

 

[1689Dave]

Resisting the Holy Spirit is resisting God and Salvation. Rejection of Christ is resisting Jesus and the grace of God.
MB

You are confusing Law (not saved) with grace (saved).

 

[JD731]

There is no basis in reality or reason or logic for such a doctrine as irresistible grace. There certainly is no scriptures that teaches it. Off the top of my head, I can't think an instance in scripture where God uses an adjective to modify his grace. God does not know anything about "irresistible" grace. He knows something about the dispensation of grace. The reformed who knows a lot about something that God knows nothing about knows nothing about something he reveals as a doctrine in his scriptures. I have never met a Reformed believer who can make a reasonable and logical comment about the dispensation of grace.


Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: (gentile-ward)

Irresistible grace.
Dispensation of grace

Which is biblical? Which is true? Which has a scriptural body of teaching?