Is a little alcohol alright with the Bible?

[blackbird]

BrianT,
I just lit the fuse to your rocket a few seconds ago! You should start feeling a rather large shift in G-forces right about . . .! Sister Helen's rocket is well on its way--see, 'cause ya'll can't answer my elementary questions of "How come . . .!" Its a law in man's book--but God don't have such law!" You didn't answer my last question--can you get Jesus to buy my boy a "cool-one!" Suppose I send my girl over for some of ya'll cheap wine ya'll drink for dinner and Jesus is there acting as clerk where she's gotta say, "Boonesfarm, Please, Jesus?"If it ain't ok for my boy or girl--it ain't ok for me!

And if ole 'Cynic ever makes it back from vacation--I'll light a match to fire him up on his personal rocket! HA! Lighten up, BrianT!

Your friend,
Blackbird

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by blackbird:
BrianT,
'cause ya'll can't answer my elementary questions of "How come . . .!"

I can answer them all individually if you want. But I thought the answer I gave would basically suffice for all of them. "How come.."? Becuase that's the law of the land (where you live), not because alcohol is intrinsically sinful.

You didn't answer my last question--can you get Jesus to buy my boy a "cool-one!"

No, he wouldn't because that would be breaking the law of the land.

Are you saying that you believe drinking alcohol was not a sin before these laws were created where you live? What if these laws were abolished?

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by blackbird:
But you go to buy liquor/intoxicating beverages(of any type) and what is the name of the tax that is levied against the stuff?? What's the tax called??? That's right, boys & girls! We call it a "Sin Tax!"--don't we?

No. Actually, it's called a "sales tax". A "sin tax" is something entirely different.

Then, say I buy a bottle of, say, the cheapiest wine Winn-Dixie has. How come the caps are all sealed with this stuff--and you can't open it in the store or in the parking lot? And how come when the clerk goes to putting it in a sack(opaque brown paper)--and I say, "That's OK! I don't need that sack!"--she has to say, "I can't sell it without the sack!"[/qb "antagonistic remark deleted"
[qb]

And how come intoxicating beverages are not allowed on the Little League baseball parks here in Mississippi--even when everyone drinking promises not to abuse the stuff?

I don't know but I'm against such laws.

And how come I can go down to Baton Rouge and Tiger Stadium--walk right past the ticket person--holding an unopen can of Coca-cola and he doesn't say a word--but I have to hide my intoxicating beverage in some sort of fake binocular case if I want to get in with it? Even if I plan on not abuseing it?

Because they want you to buy their $5.50 12-oz-of-beer-in-a-16-oz-cup-watered-down-beer.

That's not a case of morality or law, that's a case of economic gouging.

And how come if its not harmful--do you have to be twenty-one to buy it--but a little toddler can buy a Chek cola and get away with it?

Because toddlers bodies are still developing. I'd really like to see the "little toddler" who can negotiate his way through the store, find the soda, and then pay for it all on his own.

When I was 10-12 years old, my dad would send me to buy beer (and shotgun shells) for him (with a note, of course) and I had no trouble doing it.

If intoxicating beverages are that troublesome to sinful man--how come God doesn't have trouble with it??

They're not and He doesn't.

Would God buy a beer for a minor? Boy, I can see it now! My seven year old boy is outside 7-Eleven and up drives Jesus and my boy says, "Jesus! Will you go inside and buy me a beer! I promise I won't abuse it! Please!?" And I can just hear Jesus saying, "Sure, Jeckle(Blackbird's son) Be glad to do it! After all, all things are lawful and clean!"

What a friend we have in Jesus Hey, Jesus, while you're in there pick me up a carton of Lucky's.

This raises an interesting point since in the days and culture of Jesus' Earthly ministry, a boy was considered a man at thirteen.

So, is he a minor, or a man?

On the other hand, I would tend to trust Jesus' judgement a lot more than yours.

Mike

[ September 25, 2002, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: C.S. Murphy ]

 

[TheOliveBranch]

Proverbs 20:1 "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging:and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."
This verse does not tell quantity, only that if you are deceived by alcohol, you are not wise.

Hosea 4:11 "Whoredom andwine and new wine take away the heart."
Again, not the amount, but the prducuct, ttakes away the heart.

Isaiah 28:7 "But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drinkare out of the way: have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink, they err in vision, they stumble in judgement."
Another without amount, just problems.

In Proverbs 31, yes Lemuel was told to give drink. But, Lemuel is advised, for himself, not to drink wine or strong drink (Pro 31:4-5). Are we not also made as kings and priests unto God? (Rev 1:6)

The preist was not allowed to go into the holy place if alcohol, any type, any amount, was in his system (Lev 10:9-10). We as preists cannot come before God with alcohol in our system, being preists (I Thes 5:17, for one).

Sometimes, it may be black and white, other times we have to put two and two together. But when there seems to be conflicting verses, best to abstain if you don't understand.

 

[Ransom]

Well, this moon-shot question was . . . underwhelming.

blackbird said:

Someone please elaborate on the tax called "Sin Tax!"

Around here they call it an "excise tax" - according to the American Heritage Dictionary, "An internal tax imposed on the production, sale, or consumption of a commodity or the use of a service within a country: excises on tobacco, liquor, and long-distance telephone calls."

So I guess using my telephone must also be a sin, since my telephone company does, indeed, charge me a "sin tax" that appears on my bill.

As for the rest of your moon-shot question, the answer is simple: you are confusing civil regulations intended to preserve public order, health, and safety with a universal moral law. Just because the great state of Mississippi says driving while drunk poses a threat to the safety of the public highways, it does not follow that God universally condemns all moderate use of alcoholic beverages in any context. That is a non sequitur.

Any comments before your rocket leaves for the moon?

Just one: Ho hum.

 

[Ransom]

TheOliveBranch said:

Hosea 4:11 "Whoredom andwine and new wine take away the heart."
Again, not the amount, but the prducuct, ttakes away the heart.

It also makes it glad (Psa. 104:15). Isn't that a contradiction?

Isaiah 28:7 "But they also have erred through wine . . .
Another without amount, just problems.

When I see a pronoun like "they," I ask: who? The antecedent of "they" is back in Isa. 28:1: "the drunkards of Ephraim." "Drunkard" presupposes an excessive amount.

Have the "drunkards of Ephraim" erred through wine? Well, obviously. They're drunk.

The preist was not allowed to go into the holy place if alcohol, any type, any amount, was in his system (Lev 10:9-10). We as preists cannot come before God with alcohol in our system, being preists (I Thes 5:17, for one).

Identifying Christian believers with Levitical priests is a mixing of contexts.

In any case, the Levitical priests were told not to perform their duties drunk. Do I obey this law? Yes - I do not drink on the job, nor do I come to work inebriated.

[ September 25, 2002, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: Ransom ]

 

[blackbird]

Suppose I got up this next Sunday and read what you guys just fired at me and ole OliveBranch in front of your preacher, deacons, Sunday School teachers, Discipleship Training teachers, elderly Senior Adults, young teen-agers and up-and-coming elementary school kids--everybody here on the Fundamental thread thinks its alright to indulge in alcoholic beverages--I suppose many, many of you hold some form of leadership positions--maybe some of you are pastors, WMU women, GA teachers, etc.--would the Nominating committee have a tough time asking you to teach the Holy Bible once again next year--will they pass you by--I am afraid that if I let the skeletin of drinking come dancing out of your closet--it would shame you in front of the preacher and all of those rosy cheeked women who've been cheering your leadership position on for years!!

Anyone want to go to the moon with the rest of 'um!?

I'm still your friend,
Blackbird

PS--My wife and I will be away this weekend with a group going to Birmingham to hear Sister Beth Moore and her Bible conference--when you get tired of being on the moon--just call me and I'll come get you! I won't leave you up there without a way home! Ransom, I just lit the fuse to your rocket--you should be feeling a quick change in G-force and velocity as it swiftly pushes you ever so upward into an orbit that will eventually "Sling-shot" you to the dark side of the moon!

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by Smoke_Eater:

And how come intoxicating beverages are not allowed on the Little League baseball parks here in Mississippi--even when everyone drinking promises not to abuse the stuff?

I don't know but I'm against such laws.

^ smoke eater I think this is my favorite of all the pro drinking group thus far. If I read you correctly you are saying you are against a law banning alcohol from little league parks. If this is what you meant then let me say that where I live here in the real world some of my children at church come from homes where they have to put up with daddy drinking and the last thing they will ever see is their pastor drinking. I truly believe that many are using their liberty as a cloak.
Murph

If intoxicating beverages are that troublesome to sinful man--how come God doesn't have trouble with it??

They're not and He doesn't.

Once again in the real world the beverages are alot of trouble to man, sinful or not. If you can handle it, great but many cannot.
Murph

 

[Optional]

blackbird,
How come you keep purposely keep confusing a glass of wine or a beer with drunkeness?
I'm with smoke_eater - thou doth protest too much.

BTW, let me know when you want to come speak at my church. Be forewarned, I will be speaking right after you to clear the confusion you seem predisposed to.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:
smoke eater I think this is my favorite of all the pro drinking group thus far. If I read you correctly you are saying you are against a law banning alcohol from little league parks. If this is what you meant then let me say that where I live here in the real world some of my children at church come from homes where they have to put up with daddy drinking and the last thing they will ever see is their pastor drinking. I truly believe that many are using their liberty as a cloak.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean Little League parks.

I do believe that there's a compelling interest to keep alchohol out of places meant for children, but I do disagree with laws banning beer from public places such as beaches and picnic areas.

Once again in the real world the beverages are alot of trouble to man, sinful or not. If you can handle it, great but many cannot.

I understand, but the weakness of the few should not infringe on the rights of the many.

As Christians, we should do what we can to not tempt a weaker brother but as Americans, we also have a moral responsibility to uphold individual liberty.

The two do not conflict and I think that as Christians and as Americans, we can do justice to both without fear of contradiction.

Mike

 

[TheOliveBranch]

This is an interesting article on the effects of alcohol on the brain, even in small amounts.
Alcohol - Brain function and memory

Also, another interesting article:
Effects of alcohol on the Body

And here's one for the slower crowd:
The Effects of Alcohol

Obviously my quote went over your head, or was your rocket going too fast?

Sometimes, it may be black and white, other times we have to put two and two together. But when there seems to be conflicting verses, best to abstain if you don't understand.

No context mix intended.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by blackbird:

I am afraid that if I let the skeletin of drinking come dancing out of your closet--it would shame you in front of the preacher and all of those rosy cheeked women who've been cheering your leadership position on for years!!

Again you go chasing down another rabbit trail instead of simply dealing with our responses. How does a local law about drinking and driving mean that having a glass of wine with dinner is sinful?

As for your latest comments: if you send me a private message, I will provide you with my pastor's email address so you can fill him in on what I've said in this thread.

 

[blackbird]

BrianT,
Its a long "sling-shot" to the moon! I don't believe that my bellsouth program is programed to reach that far where you are!

"You ain't heard the last from Ernest T. Bass!"

Your friend,
Blackbird

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Optional:
blackbird,
How come you keep purposely keep confusing a glass of wine or a beer with drunkeness?
I'm with smoke_eater - thou doth protest too much.

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Paul explains it well in 1 cor 8:9-13 as he talks of avoiding meat in an idols temple and if we don't avoid it but rather embolden our brother by our liberty then it is sin against both our brother and Christ vs 12. In verse 13 he says that if it offends he will abstain. Now in case you can't see my comparison between bars and idol temples I think the temple property was not sinful but was made sinful by the activities there. So is the bar, I know there may be exceptions but as a rule bars are sinful in practice not only by the drinking but by a general atmosphere of indulgence and a lowering of morals by many who attend. Now concerning the wine vs idol meat, the meat was only made sinful by the activity so is the drink while you may not sin in drinking it, to many it is their god to which they sacrifice their lives and paycheck to. So I feel paul has made the case about drinking in bars if you want to witness there don't have a drink in your hand.

What about those who just drink at home or socially, look at romans 14:21-23 Paul said it is good neither to eat flesh or to drink wine whereby my brother is offended or weakened. So friends paul does speak against drink not just idol meat. In vs 22 he says that if you have faith that it is fine to drink o.k. but keep it to yourself. Maybe that is the verse the lawmakers used when deciding on teh brown bag policy.Please read these verses in their entirety before giving your answers.

One more thing if you feel it o.k. to drink and even as someone said they don't mind if theri pastor knows do you serve alcohol at your meals at church? if not why not since it is not sinful.
Murph

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by blackbird

Its a long "sling-shot" to the moon! I don't believe that my bellsouth program is programed to reach that far where you are!

I don't understand your point.

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:

So I feel paul has made the case about drinking in bars if you want to witness there don't have a drink in your hand.

OK.

What about those who just drink at home or socially, look at romans 14:21-23 Paul said it is good neither to eat flesh or to drink wine whereby my brother is offended or weakened. So friends paul does speak against drink not just idol meat. In vs 22 he says that if you have faith that it is fine to drink o.k. but keep it to yourself.

So then you agree that drinking in and of itself is not inherently sinful, but rather it is the attitude and abuse that would make it sinful?

One more thing if you feel it o.k. to drink and even as someone said they don't mind if theri pastor knows do you serve alcohol at your meals at church? if not why not since it is not sinful.

Because of the reasons you discussed above. Not everyone at church has faith that it is OK, and I wouldn't want to make another brother stumble.

 

[Ransom]

blackbird said:

Suppose I got up this next Sunday and read what you guys just fired at me and ole OliveBranch in front of your preacher, deacons, Sunday School teachers, Discipleship Training teachers, elderly Senior Adults, young teen-agers and up-and-coming elementary school kids

Since

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• the constitution of my church does not forbid the moderate consumption of alcohol by the membership; and</font>
• the pastors acknowledge that the moderate consumption of alcohol is not in itself sinful;</font>
• while some positions of leadership are expected to abstain as an example, but I am not, and do not seek to be, in those positions,</font>

I doubt you would have quite the impact you think you would. Furthermore, you have not established how civil regulations forbidding the consumption of alcoholic beverages under certain circumstances to preserve public order and safety lead necessarily to the conclusion that God forbids all moderate consumption of alcoholic beverages in every context. Non sequitur.

[ September 26, 2002, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: Ransom ]

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by Ransom:
Furthermore, you have not established how civil regulations forbidding the consumption of alcoholic beverages under certain circumstances to preserve public order and safety lead necessarily to the conclusion that God forbids all moderate consumption of alcoholic beverages in every context. Non sequitur.[/QB]

Ransom I believe that is what Paul is saying in romans and 1 corinthians(see my post above) Paul said if you do it and have the faith to believe it is not sinful then go ahead but keep it to yourself. The question then arises how does one do that. Drink only at home, but make sure nobody sees you but then how do you purchase the stuff without someone seeing. I truly believe Paul spells it out fairly plain I would like to hear how anybody feels they can drink and not cross over the line Paul draws.
Murph

 

[Ransom]

So in other words, you think that Paul says "go ahead and do it," but at the same time he erects so many restrictions on the practice that it would be effectively impossible to carry it out?

That doesn't sound like sound Biblical advice, it sounds deceptive.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:

The question then arises how does one do that. Drink only at home, but make sure nobody sees you but then how do you purchase the stuff without someone seeing.

Where does it say no one can see you, or drink only at home? It seems to me you are creating restrictions not present in scripture.