Is a little alcohol alright with the Bible?

[BrianT]

I live farther north than many on this forum, and the last several days have brought us temperatures that dip below freezing. On my way to work this morning, I drive through the city's river valley, which is heavily populated with trees. I was amazed this morning by the incredible beauty of autumn. All the leaves were gold, red, rust and auburn. The grass and shrubs were patched with browns and yellows. Technically, all around me was death and decay, but God in his infinite wisdom and grace choose to make it a thing of beauty and enjoyment.

Autumn is Spring's junkyard, and I thank God for it.

 

[blackbird]

Brother Bible Student!

They ain't gonna listen to Bible reason nor will they listen to logic. *****attack removed****
Way back in WW2 US Troops stumbled upon a garrison of German "Krauts" who had "buttoned" themselves up in this fortified area of buildings. Patton thought it would be a good idea to go in and get those "sorry @#**&#@!@!!" So he sent in detachment after detachment--and every one of the attacking soldiers were mown down! Wounded or killed by a force held up in a seemingly inpregnable fort.

Patton gives a report to General Eisenhower--Eisenhower thinks for a minute as comes up with a simple solution--By-pass! Withdraw the troops, seal up the roads to and from the fort with a company or two! Make sure noone gets in or out! Take the rest of the troopers and lets go fight in another area!! Let those inside the fort--fend for themselves. We have more ammo than they do! We have more chow than they do! Eventually they'll come out waving a white flag--hungry as the dickins!! I'll leave a detachment here to guard the road in and out--buy my main force will be off on another thread. Listen for "Incoming!!"

Your friend,
Blackbird

[ October 04, 2002, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: C.S. Murphy ]

 

[Ransom]

Bible Student said:

God has told us in Proverbs 20:1 "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is decieved thereby is not wise."

What about those who aren't deceived, and continue to drink our wine in a moderate, God-honouring fashion?

blackbird said:

We have more ammo than they do!

Does you no good, because you can't shoot straight.

We have more chow than they do!

And when we run out of chow, we can live off our wine.

[ October 04, 2002, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: Ransom ]

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by blackbird:

They ain't gonna listen to Bible reason nor will they listen to logic. *** attack removed***

Attention moderators: please do something about the personal attacks. Thank you.

Brain I agree, in the future please give us more than 20 minutes. As I now have to also edit the remark from two more posts. Murph

[ October 04, 2002, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: C.S. Murphy ]

 

[Ransom]

blackbird said:

They ain't gonna listen to Bible reason nor will they listen to logic. ***remark removed***
If you think we haven't listened to Bible reason, why don't you go back to my first post in this thread, on page 1? I listed Biblical proofs of five commended uses of wine, although it appears to have gone completely ignored by you. See, I have, in fact, applied the Bible and discovered that the truth is the opposite of what you are proclaiming.

As far as listening to logic goes, you would have to first present some. (Your attempt to compare the laws of the land to divine principle, for example, was particularly weak, as is your attempt to reason from what is present in heaven to what is on earth.)

Though I do understand that your slogan-based, emotional rhetoric does get people stirred up better than calm reason and a few Bible verses.

[ October 04, 2002, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: C.S. Murphy ]

 

[blackbird]

Attention Members # 3044 & 423,

That little diddy about IQ's in the Negative factor thing--did I mention any names tagged along with that statement? I could have been writing along watching a New Orleans Saints football game and--you know, thinking along those lines--sloppy football, bad calls from the refs, etc., and accidently typed what I was feeling about the ballgame! No proof that I was implying you member #'s!

Member # 1679--the US Navy is "Bad to the Buh-buh-buh-bone"--especially when the camera's focus on "Outgoing mail"--a big, bad Tomahawk missle being fired at night--on its way to Ben Ladin's front porch!!

Well, I've done had about enough with this thread--I know the truth--and I'll admonish you as a bunch of brothers just like ole Paul did his fellow apostle--Peter!

Sure wish that you guys would clear up the misunderstanding about cheeze coming from the south end of a momma cow facing north before you call it quits on this thread, too!

Your friend,
Blackbird

PS--I have relatives in the secular world who tell me all the time that they are more turned off by Christian's who drink socially and then come to church and sing "What a Fellowship"--when it seems they enjoy secular fellowship better than church fellowshop than they are of Bible thumpin', pure logic spreading preachers like me! Thats the honest truth!

 

[Ransom]

blackbird said:
Attention Members . . . 423,

That little diddy about IQ's in the Negative factor thing--did I mention any names tagged along with that statement?

Did I respond to the "Negative IQ" thing? No, so why are you trying to get my attention?

No proof that I was implying you member #'s!



Sure wish that you guys would clear up the misunderstanding about cheeze coming from the south end of a momma cow facing north before you call it quits on this thread, too!

Sure, when someone sends me a message asking what I meant by it. The only one who seems to be confused is you, and you appear to be faking.

PS--I have relatives in the secular world who tell me all the time that they are more turned off by Christian's who drink socially and then come to church and sing "What a Fellowship"

Luckily, Christianity isn't about not offending the pagans. I'll be sure to have a glass of Chardonnay in their honour tonight. Cheers!

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by blackbird:
Attention Members # 3044 & 423,

That little diddy about IQ's in the Negative factor thing--did I mention any names tagged along with that statement? I could have been writing along watching a New Orleans Saints football game and--you know, thinking along those lines--sloppy football, bad calls from the refs, etc., and accidently typed what I was feeling about the ballgame! No proof that I was implying you member #'s!
[/qb

The moderator felt otherwise, take it up with him. Cut the dishonesty.

Besides, do you want to play that game? OK: where did I say it was a personal attack *against me*? I just said it was a personal attack.

[qb]
Member # 1679--the US Navy is "Bad to the Buh-buh-buh-bone"--especially when the camera's focus on "Outgoing mail"--a big, bad Tomahawk missle being fired at night--on its way to Ben Ladin's front porch!!

Big whoop-de-doo. The point he was making is that God made grapes, man made wine (well, actually, God also made wine in John 2, but I realize that blows your argument to bits so I won't mention it). God made iron ore, man made a battle cruiser. If I'm going too fast for you, just let me know, and I'll slow down.

PS--I have relatives in the secular world who tell me all the time that they are more turned off by Christian's who drink socially and then come to church and sing "What a Fellowship"--when it seems they enjoy secular fellowship better than church fellowshop than they are of Bible thumpin', pure logic spreading preachers like me! Thats the honest truth!

I have relatives that don't mind if I have a drink, but they are totally turned off by someone who shows the type of personality you have displayed in this thread, and then turns around and invites them to church.

"pure logic"? Pure something, anyway.

 

[ChristianCynic]

Originally posted by Bible Student:
I know that I will not change anyones mind on this subject but I would like to add a bit of caution to those of you who are so sure of yourselves that wine or strong drink will not harm you.

God has told us in Proverbs 20:1 "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is decieved thereby is not wise."...

Provergs 31:6,7-- Give strong drink to him who is perishing, And wine to him whose life is bitter. Let him drink and forget his poverty And remember his trouble no more.

Do you obey this passage of scripture, or do you defy it?

ed.: Consider Proverbs 31:3-- Do not give your strength to women, Or your ways to that which destroys kings.

If the warning about the effects of wine mean (as you clearly indicate) that we must aboslutely avoid wine, then does this passage mean absolutely none of your strength is to be to the benefit of any woman?

[ October 04, 2002, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: ChristianCynic ]

 

[HankD]

Dear blackbird.

Nothing is unclean in and of itself even alcohol. This is what the Scriptures teach.

You said...

God didn't make alcoholic beverages. Adam fell--and the grapes started going rotten on him!

OK, but what about these items which don't have to rot to intoxicate you. They will make you "drunk" without doing anything but eating them, in fact alcohol is comparatively mild to these.

San Pedro cactus - the flesh, juice and pears contain mescaline, an intoxicant.

Psylocybe Cubensis - a mushroom, which if eaten will send the consumer on an halucinogenic trip.

Betel nut - grows on palm trees in clusters
and has a narcotic numbing effect on the brain.

There are others but these will suffice.

Didn't God make these just the way they are?

HankD

 

[blackbird]

Big "brick wall" from here on out!

I ain't against you guys--I ain't against cactus--I ain't against folks who wish to have a Navy full of submarines with screendoor hatches!! I am against the alcohol industry and alcoholic beverages!

I'm your friend to the Rapture/Resurrection!
Brother Blackbird

 

[GrannyGumbo]

Dear Bro.Blackbird~They've all been told the truth and you done good! In the day of judgment they will not be able to claim ignorance & will have no excuse. You're hands are clean.

Now the granny will get out the vacuum cleaner, 'cause it's time to be shaking off some dust!

"And whosoever shall not receive you nor hear you, when you depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them".

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by Ransom:

Luckily, Christianity isn't about not offending the pagans. I'll be sure to have a glass of Chardonnay in their honour tonight. Cheers![/QB]

I say no such luck, Paul said if our Gospel is hid it is hid to those who are lost. And like it or not seeing a Christian drink can offend and turn off a "pagan" from becoming a Christian. I will look for more scripture but this just came to mind. I also feel that toasting your wine to a lost person for whom he died may be an offense to Christ. Atleast if it is done in the attitude you proposed above. I am sure you were jesting but I believe it is quite serious.
Murph

 

[HankD]

Here is the point which I have belabored (which normally I don't do) because it is important.

Nothing is unclean of itself.

Just because alcohol comes out of a process, a natural one at that,
doesn't make it unclean.

Alcohol is a medicine and an ingredient of many other medicines.
If all the alcohol industry were shut down, gone would be all those medicines
which derive themselves from alcohol.

There are many other substances in God's creation which are toxic just the way they are without a process to make them that way. God made them that way, they cannot be evil in and of themselves.

The human process itself may not be evil.

Novocain is a derivative of cocaine. It is the product of a human process.
Without it the trip to the dentist would be far worse than it already is.
In the hands of the skilled physician it is a gift from God.

It is not the substance itself but the use or abuse of the substance that makes it good or evil.

There is only one Scriptural reason to abstain from alcoholic beverage and this is the
reason I abstain :

If it offends you or your brother.

Romans 14
20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

HankD

[ October 05, 2002, 08:07 AM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

[Ransom]

I had said:

Luckily, Christianity isn't about not offending the pagans. I'll be sure to have a glass of Chardonnay in their honour tonight. Cheers!

I say no such luck, Paul said if our Gospel is hid it is hid to those who are lost.

Hid because the god of this world has blinded them to the truth (2 Cor. 4:4).

And like it or not seeing a Christian drink can offend and turn off a "pagan" from becoming a Christian.

Quite frankly, I have yet to meet a modern pagan who is turned off by drinking. We live in a society where alcohol is taken for granted. In fact, I suspect he is a Fundamentalist invention.

As for giving offense, the Gospel itself does that.

For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. (2 Cor. 2:15-16)

Since the Gospel itself is offensive to the pagans, being like the stench of death to them, and I am not going to compromise the truth of the Gospel for the sake of not offending them, I am certainly not going to compromise on such a minor issue as what I put in my body just to mollycoddle their prejudices.

I also feel that toasting your wine to a lost person for whom he died may be an offense to Christ.

I feel that you have lost your sense of sarcasm. (Doesn't anyone recognize a joke when they see one anymore?)

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by Ransom:

Quite frankly, I have yet to meet a modern pagan who is turned off by drinking. We live in a society where alcohol is taken for granted.

Yes! and that is exactly why we are called to be different.

Since the Gospel itself is offensive to the pagans, being like the stench of death to them, and I am not going to compromise the truth of the Gospel for the sake of not offending them, I am certainly not going to compromise on such a minor issue as what I put in my body just to mollycoddle their prejudices.

The gospel offends because it is in stark contrast to their lifestyle of pleasing self. We too will offend when we are in contrast but we should never offend by being like them in their behaviour. "mollycoddle" indeed why don't you put down the bottle and pick up the Bible, quit serving self and start serving God. If you people insist on drinking go ahead but stop bragging about your liberty in Christ when so many are destroyed by alcohol. And yes I guess I have lost my sense of humor when it comes to Christian drinking.
Murph

 

[Ransom]

C.S. Murphy said:

If you people insist on drinking go ahead but stop bragging about your liberty in Christ when so many are destroyed by alcohol.

Thank you for your kind permission. I will, of course, continue to proclaim the whole counsel of God on the alcohol issue, not just the parts with which I might best please men.

[ October 07, 2002, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: Ransom ]

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by Ransom:
C.S. Murphy said:

Thank you for your kind permission. I will, of course, continue to proclaim the whole counsel of God on the alcohol issue, not just the parts with which I might best please men.

Funny both of us feel we are proclaiming the whole council of God . My view err's on the side of caution with an eye toward following the scriptures that tell us not to be conformed to the world. Your view simply says drinking is my right and I will do it. notice the "I" and the "MY", cheers!!
Murph

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:
Your view simply says drinking is my right and I will do it.

Wow. 12 pages, and that's what you think our view is. Simply amazing.

 

[Ransom]

C.S. Murphy said:

Your view simply says drinking is my right and I will do it.

Thank you for admitting you haven't actually been paying attention.