Is Abortion Murder?

[post-it]

Thanks onevoice for sharing that really long commentary. I read it all and It did help provide more data to prove the Bible endorses abortion and has the priest doing them, not just with a verbal curse but with herbs they knew would cause a miscarriage.

The Bitter drink is well know as it turns out in the herbal realm along with wormwood that he mentioned most likely was used to give it the bitter taste and name. wormwood was referred to in other verses. It just happens to be a herb that can cause a miscarriage. Here is the link to the site I found that discribes this in more scientific terms.

http://recipestoday.com/resources/nutrition/herbs.htm

Anthraquinone laxatives stimulate muscle, including the uterus, possibly causing miscarriage. Uterine stimulants should be avoided for the same reason. Alkaloids, bitter principles or essential oils should be avoided because they affect functions in the mom-to-be’s body as well as in the fetus. Abortifacients also might cause miscarriage. Emmenagogues promote and regulate menstruation, which should be avoided during pregnancy.

 

[onevoice]

Are you sure you are Baptist. . even Christian? Does you pastor believe this stuff? What association are you with??

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by onevoice:

Are you one of these people that thinks we should legalize drugs since people are going to take them anyway? If we take your line of thought, we might as well.. I mean, people get killed trying to get them illegally.[/QB]

No, I'm very much against the legalization of drugs. Drugs hurt people. Drug users hurt people. Women who abort are not hurting people because the fetus is not a person. Women are hurt by illegal abortions.

Don't mix your analogies too much, you are creating fallacies.

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by onevoice:
Are you sure you are Baptist. . even Christian? Does you pastor believe this stuff? What association are you with??

Are you Christian? With this take on allowing innocent girls and women to bleed to death in some back alley or in a blood filled bed after a coat hanger abortion. Are you sure you are saved?

I will answer your charge when you answer mine.

 

[post-it]

Shall we stop with the personal attacks and focus on the argument? You seem to have no answer for the last few valid points I have made. Are you denying that this is what the Bible says? Let's stay focused.

 

[onevoice]

My final post in here. Everyone in this room but you agree that the Bible proves that abortion is a sin. I cannot change your mind as long as you continue to denounce the scriptures that we present to you and twist other scriptures to make them appear as proof that abortion is not murder. You have continually blasphemed God by stating that you are defending abortion for his glory. You are wrong, and even though I know you will not listen to me or anyone in this room, you will learn of this one day. Hopefully not the hard way. The word of God is clear in this matter, but you continue to refuse to see it. I know that you will find this as VICTORY, but don't boast too loudly, I am simply being the better man here and deciding that I do not want to hear my Lord blasphemed anymore. May God have mercy on you. I will place you at the top of our ministry prayer list and pass your name around to our ministry partners across the globe that God may show you the light. I sincerely have great concerns for your soul. . for I see no way that any person that has Christ living in them could support murder. If you would be interesting in learning how to accept Jesus as your savior please feel free to email me at any time.

God bless you my friend.

 

[Helen]

Personally, I have yet to see any valid argument being made by post-it.

Unless, of course, a woman is pregnant with an ostrich and not a human being!

 

[wingtrap]

So, post-it you want biblical evidence that a fetus is not human til it take it's first breath?since that is your supposition,where is biblical evidence that a fetus is not human?(see Jeremiah 1)since abortion is a man-made idea,it would take biblical evidence to make it right.
A fetus is God's image.it takes millions of cells for a baby to be a week old,so,how many cells qualifies an image of God?How many cells are there in the whole universe He doesn't have command of?
But,hey you can't turn an intellectualliser,it has to be a work of faith coming straight from God.you know,not so long ago,I wanted to know the truth of God's word,why baptists were the most right,etc,but mostly for selfish reasons.I wanted to be the most right.But,I never went to bible school,so,this was troubling,how could I find the answers?Well,in the preface of A.W. Tozer's book,Pursuit of God,it says how he would be holding the bible,praying for the Holy Spirit to reveal the meaning of God's Word.I started to do the same thing,and God surely has given me wisdom to be able to understand God's Word better.So,if,after all your searching and seeking answers,IF you have searched out the truth yourself,it is no avail.If you feel the Holy Spirit has given you the answer,and no,you won't doubt that urging,then PRAISE GOD!!

 

[Alex]

Originally posted by post-it:
I have some very sad news for most of you here.

While helping wingtrap look for a verse to show abortion not acceptable in the Bible I was shocked to find that on the contrary, the Bible not only endorses abortion, but God commanded the Priest to do them.

So please stop saying that the Bible and God are against abortion and that abortion is murder. It clearly is not and it is very clearly stated in this chapter.

Numbers 5:22
May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells and your thigh wastes away. [ 5:22 Or [ body and cause you to be barren and have a miscarrying womb ] ] " " 'Then the woman is to say, "Amen. So be it."

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy pain and thy conception; in pain thou shalt bring forth children ; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Gen 16:11 And the angel of Jehovah said unto her, Behold, thou art with child , and shalt bear a son; and thou shalt call his name Ishmael, because Jehovah hath heard thy affliction.
Gen 17:17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart , Shall a child be born unto him that is a hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?
Gen 18:13 And Jehovah said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, who am old?
Gen 19:36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.
1Sa 4:19 And his daughter-in-law, Phinehas' wife, was with child, near to be delivered: and when she heard the tidings that the ark of God was taken, and that her father-in-law and her husband were dead, she bowed herself and brought forth; for her pains came upon her.

There are many more. Should I continue? Was with child, What does that mean to you? I would say the unborn was called children!

God Bless...........Alex

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by Alex:


There are many more. Should I continue? Was with child, What does that mean to you? I would say the unborn was called children!

God Bless...........Alex[/QB]

God called Adam a Man before he breathed life into him so names of entities have no indication of life associated with them. See Gen 2:7

Alex, was the an answer to the Numbers passage that was quoted, if it was, you didn't read it. Please take the time the read the chapter in Numbers and then the commentary that onevoice wrote then my follow up with the exact nature of the poison used to induce an abortion as detailed in God's law.

Then address the post please, I would like to know what you think of this argument from scripture.

[ August 25, 2002, 12:05 AM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

[post-it]

Helen, I would like to also know what you think about the Numbers abortion passages. I do value your opionion. With your scientific background do you feel that the priest would use wormwood to induce the abortion or a combination of the Bitter herbs. It says dust which could be powdered wormwood and other herbs which were ground up for more potency. What do you think happened?

 

[Alex]

Originally posted by post-it:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Alex:


There are many more. Should I continue? Was with child, What does that mean to you? I would say the unborn was called children!

God Bless...........Alex

God called Adam a Man before he breathed life into him so names of entities have no indication of life associated with them. See Gen 2:7

Alex, was the an answer to the Numbers passage that was quoted, if it was, you didn't read it. Please take the time the read the chapter in Numbers and then the commentary that onevoice wrote then my follow up with the exact nature of the poison used to induce an abortion as detailed in God's law.

Then address the post please, I would like to know what you think of this argument from scripture.[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]From Matthew Henry:

Num 5:11-31 - This law would make the women of Israel watch against giving cause for suspicion. On the other hand, it would hinder the cruel treatment such suspicions might occasion. It would also hinder the guilty from escaping, and the innocent from coming under just suspicion. When no proof could be brought, the wife was called on to make this solemn appeal to a heart-searching God. No woman, if she were guilty, could say "Amen" to the adjuration, and drink the water after it, unless she disbelieved the truth of God, or defied his justice. The water is called the bitter water, because it caused the curse. Thus sin is called an evil and a bitter thing. Let all that meddle with forbidden pleasures, know that they will be bitterness in the latter end. From the whole learn, 1. Secret sins are known to God, and sometimes are strangely brought to light in this life; and that there is a day coming when God will, by Christ, judge the secrets of men according to the gospel, Rom_2:16. 2 In particular, Whoremongers and adulterers God will surely judge. Though we have not now the waters of jealousy, yet we have God's word, which ought to be as great a terror. Sensual lusts will end in bitterness. 3. God will manifest the innocency of the innocent. The same providence is for good to some, and for hurt to others. And it will answer the purposes which God intends.

I do not see anything reffering to abortion in the above paste. Maybe others will see this different. Let's see what they say about your ONE reference. My other reply was to show you bibically that an unborn conception WAS called a child not just meat attached to a woman. The part I do see above is that women who choose to be "loose", will suffer and many will die by having abortions and are not INNOCENT just by saying, I didn't think I would get pregnant. According to 99 percent(close guess), who have respond in these 17 pages, you are wrong!

God Bless...........Alex

 

[onevoice]

ok. . I know I said I was leaving, but I can't let you twist my post into a "proof" of your deception.

Perhaps you missed this line in the commentary "Dust must be put into the water, to signify the reproach she lay under, and the shame she ought to take to herself, putting her mouth in the dust; but dust from the floor of the tabernacle "

Also, if you would have read the entire commentary you would see it as more of a VD, since there is no mention of pregnancy.

 

[onevoice]

The Holy Bible, King James Version

Numbers 5:17 (KJV)
17And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water:

Dust:
âphâr aw-fawr' From H6080; dust (as powdered or gray); hence clay, earth, mud:—ashes, dust, earth, ground, morter, powder, rubbish

(this is from Strongs)

Does NOT say herbs

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by wingtrap:
[QB]So, post-it you want biblical evidence that a fetus is not human til it take it's first breath?

Read through these verse then ask yourself how breath or God's breath is connected to a living human being. Then when do you think life begins and ends for a person.

Genesis 2:7
the Lord God formed the man ([adam] ) from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Job 27:3
as long as I have life within me, the breath of God in my nostrils,

Job 32:8
But it is the spirit Or [ Spirit ] ; in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding.

Job 34:14
If it were his intention and he withdrew his spirit [ 34:14 Or [ Spirit ] ] and breath,

Psalm 39:5
You have made my days a mere handbreadth; the span of my years is as nothing before you. Each man's life is but a breath. Selah

Psalm 104:29
When you hide your face, they are terrified; when you take away their breath, they die and return to the dust.

Psalm 150:6
Let everything that has breath praise the Lord . Praise the Lord .

Isaiah 2:22
Stop trusting in man, who has but a breath in his nostrils. Of what account is he?

Revelation 11:11
But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them.

Genesis 6:17
I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish.

Job 7:7
Remember, O God, that my life is but a breath; my eyes will never see happiness again.

Job 14:10
But man dies and is laid low; he breathes his last and is no more.

 

[cdouglas76]

Alex and Post-it,

With all due respect, your beliefs about abortion are Horse-Crap. Numbers 5 mentions nothing of an abortion, nor does it even mention the woman being pregnant! Don't add to Gods word to promote murder. Try viewing life the way God does.

The Bible overwelmingly treats unborn children as people. You lost this debate thousands of years ago when God used men to write out his word.

To see how badly you are wrong go to the link below

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-abortioninthebible.html

 

[Alex]

post-it:

Would you agree that before birth a baby's brain develops and his heart beats? Would that not constitute a living, as you would say,......something? If this unborn child, lets say at 8 months, dies(don't know why they say the baby is dead ), doesn't it have a SOUL and goes to Heaven? Why do doctors say: It was born dead if it wasn't alive to start with? Boy, you are playing this abortion thing with thin straws for support. Why is NNE with you?

God Bless...........Alex

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by Alex:

I do not see anything reffering to abortion in the above paste. According to 99 percent(close guess), who have respond in these 17 pages, you are wrong!

Alex, come on. If a woman is suspected of adultry then the husband can have a priest give her a "bitter tasting" drink (dust alone wouldn't cause it to be consistantly bitter on its own, but many of the herbs that cause miscarriage "taste bitter") which if she had gotten pregnant during the suspected adultry would result in a swollen stomach and thighs. A direct hit into the uterus area and would cause a miscarriage... as planned then possibly being barren from then on. This with the Blessing of God.

So this should prove once and for all that a fetus is not a life. As God would not kill an innocent life. He would only punish the woman.

 

[Alex]

Originally posted by cdouglas76:
Alex and Post-it,

With all due respect, your beliefs about abortion are Horse-Crap. Numbers 5 mentions nothing of an abortion, nor does it even mention the woman being pregnant! Don't add to Gods word to promote murder. Try viewing life the way God does.

The Bible overwelmingly treats unborn children as people. You lost this debate thousands of years ago when God used men to write out his word.

To see how badly you are wrong go to the link below

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-abortioninthebible.html

Well, Mr. No Sides, you don't think abortion is murder? Maybe I misunderstood you. Are you saying that the Word of God doesn't or wouldn't call it murder just because abortion is not mentioned? Boy, now we can go on to TV that isn't mentioned. Do we look at the filth there just because TV isn't in the Bible. Come on...God give us a brain to figure out these things. If I am blasting you for something you didn't mean, then I apolpgize.

Your first sentence didn't sound much like a Christian?? It could have been worded much nicer and still have meant the same thing......apology accepted for both post-it and myself.

God Bless...........Alex

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by Alex:
[QB]post-it:

Why is NNE with you?

I think about 1/2 the people reading the board is with me on this issue. They just won't say so. You can see why with all the personal attacks on me and my faith in God. This issue is one that causes other Christians to doubt your walk with God. It is like standing up to mob during a hanging. Even if people disagree with the hanging, most people won't say anything and will go along because the don't want to look like a friend to the hangee and as a person called me here, part of a "murder".