Is Abortion Murder?

[post-it]

Adam was created from the earth. As you have stated earlier Helen, he had every feature a human needs to exist. Then and only then did God breath into his nostrils the Breath of Life and he became alive.

from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

This gives more support to when life begins than any other scripture you can provide that would lead us to believe that a fetus is a living being. Care to try?

 

[Mike McK]

Right, but Adam was created as a fully grown adult without the normal gestation period, not as a child in the womb.

This was clearly a supernatural and singular event and not one that should be taken as a rule for what is normative.

Later verse of scripture describe unborn babies as being known by God and worshipping God. Not something they could do were they not alive.

Mike

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by Smoke_Eater:

Later verse of scripture describe unborn babies as being known by God and worshipping God. Not something they could do were they not alive.

Mike[/QB]

These was clearly supernatural and singular events and not ones that should be taken as a rule for what is normative.

[ August 18, 2002, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by post-it:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Smoke_Eater:

Later verse of scripture describe unborn babies as being known by God and worshipping God. Not something they could do were they not alive.

Mike

These was clearly supernatural and singular events and not ones that should be taken as a rule for what is normative.[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Cute, but that's not the point.

The point is that, in order for these things to have happened, the baby must have had consciousness.

Besides, how do you know that they are necessarily singular events?

Mike

 

[Justified]

Justified: This is the same "post-it" that doesn't believe in the virgin birth?

post: YES!

Justified: Thought so!

Justified: Now says abortion is not murder?

post: YES!

Justified: Thought so!

Justified: He says he is a Baptist?

post: YES!

Justified: Could of fooled me!

Justified: False teacher, wolves in sheep's clothing, believes the lies of his father?

post: YES!

Jesus: Wherefore by their fruits, ye shall know them!

Justified: Will I get a lot of slack for this post?

post: ?

"It is always better to stand up for conservatism, then to fall into liberalism" Justified Version

[ August 18, 2002, 09:32 PM: Message edited by: Justified ]

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by Justified:

Justified: He says he is a Baptist?

post: YES!

Justified: Could of fooled me!

Justified: False teacher, sheep in wolves clothing, believes the lies of his father?

post: YES!

QB]

Ad hominem attacks on me doesn't help your position on abortion. I really don't care what you think of me, I care why you feel that scripture supports your views. Do you have any views that can be supported by scripture on abortion?

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by Smoke_Eater:
These was clearly supernatural and singular events and not ones that should be taken as a rule for what is normative.

Cute, but that's not the point.

[/quote] Yes, that was the point.

Besides, how do you know that they are necessarily singular events?

Mike

The same way in which you know that Adam was the same singular event. I deduced it from scripture.

[ August 18, 2002, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by post-it:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Smoke_Eater:
These was clearly supernatural and singular events and not ones that should be taken as a rule for what is normative.

Cute, but that's not the point.

</font>[/QUOTE]Yes, that was the point.

No it's not. The point is that, for these things to have happened implies that the baby in the womb has consciousness.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Besides, how do you know that they are necessarily singular events?

Mike

The same way in which you know that Adam was the same singular event. I deduced it from scripture.</font>[/QUOTE]No, the creation of Adam has never been replicated while millions of babies are concieved and born every day.

One is singular. The other isn't.

 

[post-it]

Smoke_eater, you obviously still don't get it.

Look, How many times, and how many babies in the womb did God make reference about in regards to these issues? See, that is the issue. Does that help.

At no point did he make an across the board anouncement that all unborn babies... just these and only these.

For you to apply life across the board would mean I could apply life by breath to all men, because of Adam. We then have conflicting scripture.

The bottom line is that we don't have enough clear scripture to draw solid conclusions that life starts in the womb.

[ August 18, 2002, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by Justified:
Justified: This is the same "post-it" that doesn't believe in the virgin birth?

post: YES!

Justified: Thought so!

Justified: Now says abortion is not murder?

post: YES!

Justified: Thought so!

Justified: He says he is a Baptist?

post: YES!

Justified: Could of fooled me!

Justified: False teacher, sheep in wolves clothing, believes the lies of his father?

post: YES!

Jesus: Wherefore by their fruits, ye shall know them!

Justified: Will I get a lot of slack for this post?

post: ?

"It is always better to stand up for conservatism, then to fall into liberalism" Justified Version

Yea, I'll give you a little more ribbing. Here is a break down of the above attack. Let's see if it holds water?

Post-it doesn’t believe what I and some in the Baptist church believe
Yet he does believe what some other Baptists believe.
He says he is Baptist
I don’t believe him since he must listen to Satan
Therefore, he is a liar.

Yes, very good argument and a rock solid conclusion. Don’t quit your day job.

[ August 18, 2002, 09:22 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

[Justified]

Originally posted by post-it:

Do you have any views that can be supported by scripture on abortion?

I'm glad you asked!

Created by God
Fruit of the womb
His heritage
Life
Salvation
Judgement
Breath of life
He knew me
Go and preach the Gospel
Be fruitful and multiply
His clay
His vessel
make disciples
a fruitful vine
Wills that none should perish
His little children
He opens and closes the womb
and I'm sure that there are many more!

Plus everything else that has been said. I'm sure you know what multiple Scripture verses these are refering to!

post-it, YOU SUPPORT MURDER! The elimination of life! God's created life! This is an abomination!

post-it, Get a life! A new life in Jesus Christ!

I don't care what medical science says! They are not God! They obviously don't know who created them and the babies that are in the womb!

I have the manual for life...The Bible!

"It is always better to stand up for conservatism, then to fall into liberalism" Justified Version

[ August 18, 2002, 09:34 PM: Message edited by: Justified ]

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by post-it:
Smoke_eater, you obviously still don't get it.

Look, How many times, and how many babies in the womb did God make reference about in regards to these issues? See, that is the issue. Does that help.

No, I do get it. You're saying that because something happened once in the case of Adam, it's axiomatic but if something happens more than once, as in the case of the unborn children mentioned, it's a specific example meant only for that instance.

Like the song says, you can't have your Kate and Edith, too.

Either it's a principle or it's not.

In the case of Adam, this is the only time that this has ever happened. God molded a man out of dirt and imparted life to him.

This was a one time, supernatural thing. We've never seen it happen since.

Babies are born every day and while, ultimately, God gives them life which is not ours to take away, they come to be created by purely natural means.

There's no indication in Scripture that the cases of David or John having consciousness in the womb are isolated events, as is the case of Adam.

{qb]

For you to apply life across the board would mean I could apply life by breath to all men, because of Adam. We then have conflicting scripture.[/qb]

I don't see how. Please explain.

[/qb][/quote]The bottom line is that we don't have enough clear scripture to draw solid conclusions that life starts in the womb.[/QB][/QUOTE]

That much I agree with you on but we can sure make a better case for that than that unborn children don't have consciousness.

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by Smoke_Eater:
No, I do get it. You're saying that because something happened once in the case of Adam, it's axiomatic but if something happens more than once, as in the case of the unborn children mentioned, it's a specific example meant only for that instance.

Here, I will use an example to show you what I mean.

Jeremiah 1:5
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew [ 1:5 Or [ chose ] ] you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

Ok, is God saying that he knew everyone before they where formed in the womb? No, he is saying he knew Jeremiah. In fact, the implication is that he doesn't know other people before they are formed in the womb. Otherwise God wouldn't have needed to point this out as something special about Jeremiah over all other people. So here we have a "singular" instance of a pre-birth situation in which God himself admits this is a special singular situation.

Now, that is enough to make my case however, after reading this verse again, I now see something else that is also of importance.

It says that God knew Jeremiah "before" he was formed in the womb, indicating that we are talking a pre-conception event. Is God talking about a spirit that was already in existence(not likely) or that it is simply that God can foretell the future and knew what and who this fetus would develop into after birth. Thus not indicating whether a fetus is alive or not since it certainly couldn't have been alive before conception.

The bottom line is that my case is made that we have a singular situation here as admitted by God himself.

[ August 18, 2002, 10:49 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

[Helen]

I never cease to be amazed at how much Scripture, AND science AND commons sense must be ignored/twisted in order to support doctrines such as post-it and Joshua V. support.

What is terrifying is that they actually can influence people to doubt God's Word, and even doubt themselves.

My prayer is that God stops both of you before you do any more damage to people.

 

[Mike McK]

I don't see how it follows that just because God makes a pronoucement over one person and not every one that only that one had consciousness in the womb.

The point remains that Jeremiah had to have had consciousness in order for God to know him and there's no logical reason to believe that, there being nothing particularly supernatural about Jeremiah's conception or birth, Jeremiah was an exception.

Mike

[ August 18, 2002, 11:27 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

[Justified]

Helen,

" A M E N ! " " A M E N ! "


"It is always better to stand up for conservatism, then to fall into liberalism" Justified Version

 

[Graceforever]

Originally posted by Helen:
I never cease to be amazed at how much Scripture, AND science AND commons sense must be ignored/twisted in order to support doctrines such as post-it and Joshua V. support.

What is terrifying is that they actually can influence people to doubt God's Word, and even doubt themselves.

My prayer is that God stops both of you before you do any more damage to people.

Helen, I wouldn’t worry about post-it proselytizing very many people…. First, to be a wolf in sheep’s clothes, you have to similar to the sheep…. The things that he evidently believes are not even close to scripture, so he’s not fooling anyone but himself..…. Jesus says, my sheep here my voice and not the voice of a stranger…..

Post-it doesn’t believe in the virgin birth?

BTW, science can’t even tell you exactly when O. J. Simpson killed his wife…. How in the world can it tell you when life begins in the womb….

Post-it, you say you’re a Baptist….. Where do you go to church sir?

[ August 18, 2002, 11:23 PM: Message edited by: Graceforever ]

 

[HankD]

The Church has always considered abortion a heinous crime.
One early Church author said it was so horrible a crime that he didn't even want to give it a name.

How sick this world is.

Luke 1
44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

Fetal tissue?

HankD

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by Helen:
I never cease to be amazed at how much Scripture, AND science AND commons sense must be ignored/twisted in order to support doctrines such as post-it and Joshua V. support.

What is terrifying is that they actually can influence people to doubt God's Word, and even doubt themselves.

My prayer is that God stops both of you before you do any more damage to people.

Arguing with people like this appeals to our Old Man but leads to nothing. I am interested in knowing how we might put feet to this Prayer of yours and make this board open to Christians only.

Murph

 

[post-it]

Wow, is this is how you treat a brother in Christ and fellow Baptist? I wonder how much worse you treat the unsaved when they have questions you can't support with scripture. Is it "well if you ask that you will go to hell?"

You just can't believe, I am saved, a Baptist, and going to heaven. Why do you think that is? I've been a Baptist longer than some of you have been alive. I believe the same as you on most every issue except the ones I bring up on this board. Those are the ones I want to discuss. I have no interest in getting full agreement with others on issues such as the resurrection or a thousand other issues we will fully agree together on.

So I bring up a few points and suddenly I don't believe in "anything" you believe in. Maybe I should take the time to talk about these other agreed upon issues, but why? I agree with you already on those. I know where I am out of line with my Baptist doctrine. Why do you think I only hit those issues? The other liberals on the board are also aware of this line. If you will stop accusing and start discussing the issue, you may see something that you may have missed all your life. I still catch things I have missed my whole life. The Bible is the Living Word. You all are treating it as if it is the Dead Word of God. Meaning there is no changes, and it is all Black and white and long ago decided. Unchanging... Dead!